Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Lollygag]

21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I expected something along the line. LF and Varys are the players of the game for the IT. They are the players and the kings and queens are their pawns. A petty game, for something which will be destroyed by the end.

BR (and Bran) are, with Euron, the players of a greater game. Or they are the pawns of the greater game, by the gods.

D&D are unpredictable. There is no logic in their telling. But not GRRM. It is just we have to sort witch telling is accurate and important. And not be blinded by what we want to happen.

I guessed at Euron's general role. My impression is that a lot of people did. I didn't guess at the details we'd get tossed in the Forsaken chapter though. Not by a longshot. 

TWOW Aeron Spoilers

Spoiler

Pyat Pree, that Euron would make Ramsay look like a choirboy, Aeron's visions and the implication that the Drowned God doesn't exist and the implications for Aeron himself, sacrificing his own children, the God-king thing, that Euron would be a sort of anti-Bran figure, a strongly implied agent of the Great Other, that might be Cersei at her side and what the hell happened to her if it is... holy cow the stuff in that chapter.

Been seeing a lot of Unsullied say they're starting to read the books. Have to admit a perverse interest in seeing them react to book Euron, comparing him to the Jack Sparrow knockoff and ….

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lollygag

[The Map Guy]

22 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

What do you mean it meant nothing!!?? It meant everything! The entire endgame requires it be true. Otherwise the entire story meant nothing. It was critical that Jon not Dany was the real heir. That's why she freaked out. That's why he had to be the one to kill her. SO IT WOULD HAVE MEANING!

That's why he had to keep it secret and leave the kingdom. That's why his point about house words not being stamped on you at birth is so important. Otherwise Rhaegar's obsession with prophesy didn't wreck the kingdom and doom his family. And his Kingsguard friends. Or create Robert and Cersei. Everything is about this. Everything. 

Honestly, this is what it was all always about. 

I can't tell if you are serious or troll baiting ... but if the entire reason for D&D's R+L is for Jon to kill Dany and stop the Mad Queen, it is redundant because Tyrion can do it too.

IMO, if Tyrion killed Dany like the way Jon did, it would have been a better story than D&D's crap. He is the brother of the Kingslayer that saved King's Landing. He is an adviser to Daenerys like Jon is. Tyrion has killed a woman before in cold blood. Tyrion would be the better candidate to assassinate Dany than R+L would.

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

You know, in math those two are the same thing. Not sure where the big difference is supposed to be. Unless you're saying that GRRM asking D&D who Jon's mother was, and them answering correctly, simply proves J=X+L, where X is still an unknown

Well its not math technically, but its an incomplete formula. Let's take Star Wars for an example

• Luke = Anakin + Padme ... Luke's parents are Anakin & Padme ... true
• Anakin + Padme = Luke ... Anakin's and Padme's child is Luke ... incomplete ... There is another
• Anakin + Padme = Luke & Leia ... Anakin's and Padme's children are Luke & Leia ...  true & complete

Okay now lets convert this formula over to ASOIAF

• Robb = Ned + Cat ... Robb's parents are Ned & Cat ... true
• Ned + Cat = Robb ... Ned's and Cat's child is Robb ... incomplete
• Ned + Cat = Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon ... Ned's and Cat's children are Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon

 

GRRM implied that D&D got J=R+L right, not R+L=J

And now with the new revelation, I guess D&D only got Jon = unknown + Lyanna

And oh God, please don't bring on the Jon Snow is like Jesus Christ and Lyanna was a Virgin theory

This ain't no Alyssa Milano's sex boycott! Lyanna was with Rhaegar and they got it on!

[CrypticWeirwood]

The reason it was so important for Jon to have been the so-called rightful king yet not come to rule is because it shatters the hackneyed hidden-prince trope, just like killing off Eddard Stark, his protagonist of Game of Thrones shattered that hackneyed trope as well. 

It also proved Dany's whole life-mission goal to "take back" the Iron Throne because she was "the rightful heir" was always full of hot air.

Then when she tried to keep living what she now knew to be a lie, she outed herself as always having been on a mission of wrathful revenge, never of righteousness, because she had no such right but didn't care.

These were critical elements of the art form that Martin created. Lose that and you lose his messaging.

[The Map Guy]

2 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The reason it was so important for Jon to have been the so-called rightful king yet not come to rule is because it shatters the hackneyed hidden-prince trope, just like killing off Eddard Stark, his protagonist of Game of Thrones shattered that hackneyed trope as well. 

It also proved Dany's whole life-mission goal to "take back" the Iron Throne because she was "the rightful heir" was always full of hot air.

Then when she tried to keep living what she now knew to be a lie, she outed herself as always having been on a mission of wrathful revenge, never of righteousness, because she had no such right but didn't care.

These were critical elements of the art form that Martin created. Lose that and you lose his messaging.

Jon and Dany get married, problem solved

Oh wait, D&D wrote this, every character has to be stupid so they can have a story to write.

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, The Map Guy said:

Jon and Dany get married, problem solved

Everybody writes that story, again and again and again. Martin wouldn't have wasted his time writing yet another storybook happy ending when there are already zillions of those out there. 

That doesn't break the wheel: it just wears it as a wedding band for a time so that Florian and Jonquil can live happily ever after. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The reason it was so important for Jon to have been the so-called rightful king yet not come to rule is because it shatters the hackneyed hidden-prince trope, just like killing off Eddard Stark, his protagonist of Game of Thrones shattered that hackneyed trope as well. 

...

These were critical elements of the art form that Martin created. Lose that and you lose his messaging.

I’m so tired of people reducing the book’s sole purpose to subverting/destroying tropes. If that’s all that mattered to Martin, his story would be terrible and would eventually become predictable and meaningless. What he does, and does well, is introduce elements of reality to character tropes. So whether it be the protagonist or the antagonist, we as readers get to hear their thoughts, understand their motivations, fears, and justifications. This makes these characters more real and we can empathize with them more than the standard fantasy hero/villain. As to Ned dying in the first book, this was perhaps a shock to a lot of readers, but if you take the series as a whole, he was never the protagonist. He was the father figure in fantasy/ mythology whose death/ failure is the impetus needed to develop the characters of his kids/ prodigies. His death is required to set the story in motion and to set up the growth in the character arcs of the actual protagonists. And that’s exactly what Martin gave us.

Martin has said on several occasions that he loses interest in a story if he knows the ending and he likes to surprise the reader, but he’s also said his story should flow organically. If all he cared about was subverting tropes and readers expectations, his story wouldn’t be very good and would be rather meaningless. Martin is smart enough to know that hope is a central theme in fantasy/mythical storytelling and he is writing fantasy after all, despite how much people would like to argue otherwise.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

35 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I’m so tired of people reducing the book’s sole purpose to subverting/destroying tropes. If that’s all that mattered to Martin, his story would be terrible and would eventually become predictable and meaningless. What he does, and does well, is introduce elements of reality to character tropes. So whether it be the protagonist or the antagonist, we as readers get to hear their thoughts, understand their motivations, fears, and justifications. This makes these characters more real and we can empathize with them more than the standard fantasy hero/villain. As to Ned dying in the first book, this was perhaps a shock to a lot of readers, but if you take the series as a whole, he was never the protagonist. He was the father figure in fantasy/ mythology whose death/ failure is the impetus needed to develop the characters of his kids/ prodigies. His death is required to set the story in motion and to set up the growth in the character arcs of the actual protagonists. And that’s exactly what Martin gave us.

Martin has said on several occasions that he loses interest in a story if he knows the ending and he likes to surprise the reader, but he’s also said his story should flow organically. If all he cared about was subverting tropes and readers expectations, his story wouldn’t be very good and would be rather meaningless. Martin is smart enough to know that hope is a central theme in fantasy/mythical storytelling and he is writing fantasy after all, despite how much people would like to argue otherwise.

This x10000

People always use George's Aragorn quote to say that George is "subverting tropes" but what he really meant was that he wished Tolkien showed what happened after Aragorn ruled. Martin is using several of the tropes of fantasy he is simply injecting them with realism just as you described with Ned. Ned's death wasn't groundbreaking in the epic fantasy genre, the father figure dying to make way for the younger characters is one that has been done to death, it's just that in this story we actually are inside the father figure's head seeing his conflicts, struggles etc.

[Ser Hedge]

2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I can't tell if you are serious or troll baiting ... but if the entire reason for D&D's R+L is for Jon to kill Dany and stop the Mad Queen, it is redundant because Tyrion can do it too.

IMO, if Tyrion killed Dany like the way Jon did, it would have been a better story than D&D's crap. He is the brother of the Kingslayer that saved King's Landing. He is an adviser to Daenerys like Jon is. Tyrion has killed a woman before in cold blood. Tyrion would be the better candidate to assassinate Dany than R+L would.

Well its not math technically, but its an incomplete formula. Let's take Star Wars for an example

• Luke = Anakin + Padme ... Luke's parents are Anakin & Padme ... true
• Anakin + Padme = Luke ... Anakin's and Padme's child is Luke ... incomplete ... There is another
• Anakin + Padme = Luke & Leia ... Anakin's and Padme's children are Luke & Leia ...  true & complete

Okay now lets convert this formula over to ASOIAF

• Robb = Ned + Cat ... Robb's parents are Ned & Cat ... true
• Ned + Cat = Robb ... Ned's and Cat's child is Robb ... incomplete
• Ned + Cat = Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon ... Ned's and Cat's children are Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon

 

GRRM implied that D&D got J=R+L right, not R+L=J

And now with the new revelation, I guess D&D only got Jon = unknown + Lyanna

And oh God, please don't bring on the Jon Snow is like Jesus Christ and Lyanna was a Virgin theory

This ain't no Alyssa Milano's sex boycott! Lyanna was with Rhaegar and they got it on!

egad, I wake up to find we're still doing algebra here 

Ok, how about this, GRRM has confirmed

J = f(X, L)

and the probability that X is R,

P(X=R) = 99.99999999999999999999%

everybody happy now? 

Cue someone to point out we don't know there weren't more variables in the J function . The Biologists can take over now. 

[Ser Hedge]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

I can't keep track what's "canon" and what isn't in Star Wars lore anymore (and don't really care), but I believe one could argue it'd be P+L=J.

Great Snakes!

Good thing I checked out of Star Wars some time back. Sounds like they don't even need D&D to blow it up any more.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Jon I think is far more complex. We don't even know if he actually dies in book. Though it's likely, sure.

Is it? I don’t think Jon dies. Not now, anyway. 

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

But what happens if we rejoin him in book? I'm not sure how much the show helped us, with all the missing book characters, much of post resurrection Show Jon could be (and seems likely to me) borrowed from what other characters (such as Aegon) will do in book. I mean stuff like the Battle of the Bastards is obviously going to be different in book (Stannis is still alive and is in what we could call Show Jon's place).

I think besides giving Jon some of fAegon’s story and some of Stannis’s story, the show gave Jon some of LSH’s story w/ their plotzee. But just the “major character dies and is brought back” part. And that’s why Jon’s death and resurrection n the show was so ridiculously underwhelming. The show runners/writers didn’t know what to do w/ it, so they only did the very basic, “dies, and is brought back”. 

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Jon was tempted to become Lord of Winterfell, but his honor to the Night's Watch kept him from accepting Stannis's offer.

I don’t think it was his vows to the NW that kept Jon from accepting Stannis offer, but the Old Gods, and Winterfell itself, his family...

“Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. “My lords,” he said with cold courtesy.
“What are you doing here, bastard?” Thorne asked.
“Bathing. But don’t let me spoil your plotting.” Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.”

<snip>

“Only then did he permit himself to stop, to take a breath, to think. Othell Yarwyck was not a man of strong convictions, except when it came to wood and stone and mortar. The Old Bear had known that. Thorne and Marsh will sway him, Yarwyck will support Lord Janos, and Lord Janos will be chosen Lord Commander. And what does that leave me, if not Winterfell?”

<snip>

“Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . .”

<snip>

“Most days he gave as good as he got, Jon liked to think, but not today. He had hardly slept last night, and after an hour of restless tossing he had given up even the attempt, dressed, and walked the top of the Wall till the sun came up, wrestling with Stannis Baratheon’s offer.”

<snip>

“You can’t be the Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.”

<snip>

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

 

 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

@Lollygag

Thank you.

Lets all give a slow!clap to show!Catelyn Stark and her 'how to raise your husband's nephew who you believe to be his bastard' 101, used to great effect to newter iniciative and ambition and create a submissive, unable to commit moron.

I really disliked what they did to Jon, if you couldn't tell by now.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Great Snakes!

Good thing I checked out of Star Wars some time back. Sounds like they don't even need D&D to blow it up any more.

Ditto. And a special ew to the P in the earlier equation.

[Lady Anna]

5 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m so tired of people reducing the book’s sole purpose to subverting/destroying tropes. If that’s all that mattered to Martin, his story would be terrible and would eventually become predictable and meaningless. What he does, and does well, is introduce elements of reality to character tropes. So whether it be the protagonist or the antagonist, we as readers get to hear their thoughts, understand their motivations, fears, and justifications. This makes these characters more real and we can empathize with them more than the standard fantasy hero/villain. As to Ned dying in the first book, this was perhaps a shock to a lot of readers, but if you take the series as a whole, he was never the protagonist. He was the father figure in fantasy/ mythology whose death/ failure is the impetus needed to develop the characters of his kids/ prodigies. His death is required to set the story in motion and to set up the growth in the character arcs of the actual protagonists. And that’s exactly what Martin gave us.

Martin has said on several occasions that he loses interest in a story if he knows the ending and he likes to surprise the reader, but he’s also said his story should flow organically. If all he cared about was subverting tropes and readers expectations, his story wouldn’t be very good and would be rather meaningless. Martin is smart enough to know that hope is a central theme in fantasy/mythical storytelling and he is writing fantasy after all, despite how much people would like to argue otherwise.

Agree with all of this. 

[Ruki88]

6 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

@Lollygag

Thank you.

Lets all give a slow!clap to show!Catelyn Stark and her 'how to raise your husband's nephew who you believe to be his bastard' 101, used to great effect to newter iniciative and ambition and create a submissive, unable to commit moron.

I really disliked what they did to Jon, if you couldn't tell by now.

Yep, I still think he's the worst portrayed character in the show - at least the others were allowed to have a personality till the end. Since s6 he was slowly drained of any character development he had in the previous seasons.

Good lord, I don't know where D&D got the idea that Jon has no personal ambition, why ppl assert that he doesn't want things. Can we get some perspective, pls. I was this close to facepalm myself into oblivion everytime I heard show!Jon say he "doesn't want it". 

For the love of...he's a bastard in the books. The only options he has, as far as he knows, are either stay at Winterfell under his brother's rule or leave to the Wall. The first option is neatly closed to him the moment Catelyn threatens to kick him out the moment Ned leaves. The guy has ambition enough to want to make a name for himself at the Wall - the only place where he thinks his birth won't matter. It's not that he wouldn't want to be a lord or king it's that these are so far out of his reach that it's laughable to even contemplate.

He wants more out of his life but I do think any lofty dream he might've had as a kid were slowly beat out of him the more he grew up and learn what a bastard is. We can see him being bitter sometimes about this.

In the show he's like a robot implanted with the program "Protect the North" / "Shield that protects the realm of men". It's like he's not even a real person anymore. 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Ah dun wan eht.

[divica]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think besides giving Jon some of fAegon’s story and some of Stannis’s story, the show gave Jon some of LSH’s story w/ their plotzee. But just the “major character dies and is brought back” part. And that’s why Jon’s death and resurrection n the show was so ridiculously underwhelming. The show runners/writers didn’t know what to do w/ it, so they only did the very basic, “dies, and is brought back”.

I think it is safe to assume that jon will unite the north. Stannis will fail… 

About the ressurection… I think the most we can conclude is that it isn t important for the story. Wether he is ressurected or survives it isn t important for his story (besides magical stuff like warging that they ignored). So if he leaves the NW it will be for another reason… 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think it was his vows to the NW that kept Jon from accepting Stannis offer, but the Old Gods, and Winterfell itself, his family…

I think it was because he realised that despite his desire to have winterfell and val if he accepted stannis offer he would be betraying everything he is. He doesn t want to go back on his faith and vows to his gods and aceppt r'hlor when he doesn t believe in him. His desires aren t more important than his word and beliefs...

I think he was ok with ignoring the claim of the rest of his familly...

 

[BalerionTheCat]

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Been seeing a lot of Unsullied say they're starting to read the books. Have to admit a perverse interest in seeing them react to book Euron, comparing him to the Jack Sparrow knockoff and ….

Yes Euron is a cartoon character, like Ramsay. Evil without an ounce of normality, depth. But he is a "game changer". He is raising the stakes. Some are gambling for petty prizes, sometime as low as getting a bit of land. Him is gambling for even more than a mortal's throne.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

Today I read some enlightening essays on Untangling the Meerenese Knot.   The 2nd essay argues that the purpose of Dany’s stay in Meereen was to set up a series of tests that will test her values.  One of the most interesting things I found in the 3rd essay was the essayist referring to an early draft of Dany for ADWD which reportedly GRRM read at conventions in the early 2000’s. In fact....it was paraphrased here on the forums.    It appears that Dany is already struggling with her self identity and that she fears herself (going mad like her father or full blown Fire & Blood).  The writing for the chapter was later changed so that the language wasn’t as explicit.  Here are the quotes for comparison:

My fears were burned away the day I came forth from the fire. Only one thing frightens me now.” “And what is it that you fear, sweet queen? “I am only a foolish young girl.” Dany rose on her toes and kissed his cheek. “But not so foolish as to tell you that.” (ADWD DANY III)

She looks at Ser Barristan and tells him that she told Xaro that she feared only one thing, though she would not tell the merchant what. Ser Barristan guesses that she only fears her dragons. “Myself,” Dany tells him. (PARAPHRASED EARLIER DRAFT OF ADWD DANY III)s

Here is the link to the essay which I highly recommend. https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iii-danys-struggle-with-herself/

Edited June 4, 2019 by TheFirstofHerName

[Nevets]

A couple of points I'd like to make

Arya:  I can't help but feel that her wolf being named Nymeria has real significance.  So I can imagine her sailing off somewhere.  But I think it might be that she leads a group of people, probably Northerners whose land was trashed by the Others, to a new home, either someplace unknown, or more likely, someplace in west Essos near Braavos  The girl is a born leader, so I can imagine her doing it, and people being willing to follow her

Northern Independence:  The North is more geographically separated from the Westeros than any other part, plus it is large enough to reasonably be independent.  Plus they have already declared independence.  Everywhere else is closer to each other, except for the Iron Islands.  Given their history, there is no way they will be allowed to become independent if it can be helped.

[Gendelsdottir]

I see at least 4 ways this could go down, yer basic 2x2 matrix. There are, no doubt, other outcomes I haven't thought of.

One - The main characters end up the same way as they do on the show. The story is told with richness, sensitivity & depth. We see through the eyes of many characters, some of whom are not young hotties. Fancy that! Book Six expands to 2 volumes; Book Seven to 3.

Two - The main characters end up the same way as the show. As with the show, the narrative viewpoint tightens sharply. Secondary characters (i.e. the old crocks) are shuffled off. Dany fumigates KL & takes a dagger to the heart. Sansa & Bran take their thrones. Jon & Arya take off for points north & west respectively. Several major Westerosi families collapse; upjumped sellswords take their places. Essos? What's that? Books Six & Seven come in at a tidy 500pp each.

Three - A major rewrite is mooted, in order that the main characters do not end up yada yada. Eight years have passed since aDwD came out. The show is done & dusted. Very much water has gone under the bridge. The world - o tempora o mores! - and its book-buying public are not the same as before. Thoroughgoing editorial change leads to massive headaches & ennui for all concerned. These thousand-plus-page doorstoppers don't just write themselves, ya know.

Four - A major rewrite is not mooted, but now that the ending's been blown, who needs books? Let's just everybody move on, shall we? A short-story collection, maybe two, covering the winter-to-spring period. Targaryen exceptionalism, Old Valyrian hijinx - loads of sex 'n' death goodness to be explored there. Waaayy more "story." If you will. Ahem.

Specific plot points? Not even gonna bother! My expectations are always subverted, no matter what they are.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Gendelsdottir