Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[BlackLightning]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:36 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

True but I just got lectured by someone else about how the biggest detractor will be Val...so it seems like everyone wants X character to have this coveted role except Sansa. I think Cersei, could play a role too, otherwise, what was the reason GRRM wanted to have Dany/Cersei in parallel chapters. In fact all of the women seeing through Dany's bullshit on various levels would be amusing. Sansa does have a reason to resist Dany because her storyline is about her autonomy and not trusting anyone except her family, including queens who could have power over her.  

Val? That's...indescribably odd but okay.

Sansa is okay too. I can totally see Sansa completely distrusting, being bewildered by and/or being disgusted with Daenerys. Sansa is smart and knows her history: the similarities between the trauma experienced by the Targaryens and the Starks are not going to be lost on her. So, after everything they've been through, why would Daenerys wage a massively destructive war at the worst possible time on her nephew? That's not going rub Sansa the right way, especially she'll be trying so hard to reconcile with Jon and Arya...

On 9/16/2019 at 3:23 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

But too late for poor Kraznys.
Was not in his rules of commerce. But the others learnt the new rule: betrayal is fair game with Dany.

Many of her visions already happened. Other could well happen: the cloth dragon, the naked crones...

Her vision of kings with eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade is strangely meeting the god emperors of Yi-Ti: Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst.

Maybe it's turning her mad. Maybe some level of madness is necessary for the visions. But IMO they generally mean something.

I think the Targaryen madness is actually linked to magic. House Targaryen is a magical bloodline with a few members of that family having actual magic powers.

In fact, I'm not so sure that every example of Targaryen madness is actual madness or mental illness. I think it boils down to actual magic powers, public misconception or both.

[BlackLightning]

For the record, I don't think Aegon is really Daenerys' nephew nor do I think that Daenerys will actually be the one to kill Aegon. I think Aegon's true nature will be revealed in due time. I also think that Euron (with Cersei's assistance) will kill Aegon and take the Iron Throne while everyone else isn't looking.

So that's not a problem.

The problem Dany is going to run into is that MOST people will think that Aegon really was her nephew and that she terrorized an entire continent in the dead of winter in her attempts to kill and usurp him. An unofficial kinslayer...

Dany's chief problem everywhere she goes is that she is misunderstood and her actions are ill-perceived. She is either underestimated or overestimated. There are several benefits to being underestimated/overestimated wherever you go but I think GRRM is trying to show us both sides of the coin. The pros of being frequently underestimated/overestimated and the cons...

[SeanF]

I've no doubt that Daenerys' reputation will be terrible by the time she reaches Westeros.  Murderer of her brother and husband;. Instigator of slave revolts and religious conflict in the East (people may disapprove of slavery, but nobles will sympathise with Eastern nobles who flee across the Narrow Sea).  Her sex life is already being used to trash her reputation in ADWD.  She will indeed be viewed as a whore.  And, she'll be leading an army of Dothraki, Unsullied, Ironborn, and sellswords.

So, I think the show got right just how unpopular she will be among the lords and ladies of Westeros.  I'm sure Sansa would be disgusted by her.

[WolfOfWinter]

 

 

 

 

On 9/10/2019 at 9:44 AM, SeanF said:

I doubt if he is truly her nephew, but I expect that she will be widely condemned for his and Arianne's deaths.  And, you're right, she'll be blamed for the death of Viserys.  

I don't believe he's the real deal either, but I think it's one of the things Martin will keep ambiguous for characters as well as the readers. And ultimately, I foresee this being a dilemma of whether his legitimacy matters or not from a moral standpoint if he can manage to restore peace in Westeros and be a competent king to the people.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the books will also have Cersei and Euron on the Iron Throne during the Long Night. I don't have any deep analysis to prove it, but Euron's presence was so insignificant that I'm convinced he was only kept in the story because of his future alliance with Cersei in the books. I can totally see Euron getting a dragon and destroying the Wall before ditching everyone to deal with the mess while he takes advantage of the situation.

The way I think it'll go is that Dany will kill fAegon and become the most hated person in Westeros. This will lead her to join the fight against the Others, both because it's the right thing to do and because of good PR. Except the Westerosi will continue to hate her because of her reputation as a kinslayer as well everything else she'll be associated with. Meanwhile, during what was meant to be her positive PR campaign, Euron and Cersei will take over KL. It will be a massive setback to what should have been a successful campaign, and she won't even have gained the love of her allies. Feeling like she's sacrificed so much for nothing in return except for a reluctant alliance with the North/Vale/Riverlands, she'll torch KL to the ground.

Basically, I think Dany's journey in the last season was very true to what book!Dany's will be. It's the lack of Aegon and the destructiveness of her invasion, as well as the implication that she stabilized SB, that takes so much away from the story.

[Lord Invictus]

On 9/22/2019 at 7:37 PM, WolfOfWinter said:

I don't believe he's the real deal either, but I think it's one of the things Martin will keep ambiguous for characters as well as the readers. And ultimately, I foresee this being a dilemma of whether his legitimacy matters or not from a moral standpoint if he can manage to restore peace in Westeros and be a competent king to the people.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the books will also have Cersei and Euron on the Iron Throne during the Long Night. I don't have any deep analysis to prove it, but Euron's presence was so insignificant that I'm convinced he was only kept in the story because of his future alliance with Cersei in the books. I can totally see Euron getting a dragon and destroying the Wall before ditching everyone to deal with the mess while he takes advantage of the situation.

The way I think it'll go is that Dany will kill fAegon and become the most hated person in Westeros. This will lead her to join the fight against the Others, both because it's the right thing to do and because of good PR. Except the Westerosi will continue to hate her because of her reputation as a kinslayer as well everything else she'll be associated with. Meanwhile, during what was meant to be her positive PR campaign, Euron and Cersei will take over KL. It will be a massive setback to what should have been a successful campaign, and she won't even have gained the love of her allies. Feeling like she's sacrificed so much for nothing in return except for a reluctant alliance with the North/Vale/Riverlands, she'll torch KL to the ground.

Basically, I think Dany's journey in the last season was very true to what book!Dany's will be. It's the lack of Aegon and the destructiveness of her invasion, as well as the implication that she stabilized SB, that takes so much away from the story.

I have to agree. Euron basically served as a cheat code for Cersei in the last two seasons, but the writers could have easily BSed Cersei winning without him. That always told me that the Cersei/Euron alliance was a book plot point. There is literally no reason to include Euron in the show if that doesn’t happen. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

That always told me that the Cersei/Euron alliance was a book plot point. There is literally no reason to include Euron in the show if that doesn’t happen. 

Yes, and the book clues back it up. So the tall pale woman laughing next to Euron in Damphair's shade of the evening trip is probably Cersei.

[BalerionTheCat]

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, and the book clues back it up. So the tall pale woman laughing next to Euron in Damphair's shade of the evening trip is probably Cersei.

Pale is for Daenerys, not Cersei.

The Forsaken is the story's game changer IMO.

Spoiler

Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Looks more Daenerys. As is Euron' plan.

Edited October 30, 2019 by BalerionTheCat

[Rose of Red Lake]

19 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Pale is for Daenerys, not Cersei.

The Forsaken is the story's game changer IMO.

  Hide contents

Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Looks more Daenerys. As is Euron' plan.

Possibly....but there are quite a few Daenerys/Cersei parallels about fire, so that it could be interchangeable. He may swap out one queen for another? 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Possibly....but there are quite a few Daenerys/Cersei parallels about fire, so that it could be interchangeable. He may swap out one queen for another? 

The show in particular has evidenced a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Cersei. Including the use of fire and violence, as 2 true daughters of the mad king.

But IMHO, pale is for Daenerys. And the shadow suggests the Shadow Binders and R'hllor, the God of Flame and Shadow. Also more an association with Daenerys.

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The show in particular has evidenced a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Cersei. Including the use of fire and violence, as 2 true daughters of the mad king.

But IMHO, pale is for Daenerys. And the shadow suggests the Shadow Binders and R'hllor, the God of Flame and Shadow. Also more an association with Daenerys.

I can buy it (I dont really care that much). So what do you think that vision predicts then?

[Lord Invictus]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Pale is for Daenerys, not Cersei.

The Forsaken is the story's game changer IMO.

  Reveal hidden contents

Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Looks more Daenerys. As is Euron' plan.

Personally I think Euron's plan to marry Daenerys will fail. Plans usually don't go off without a hitch in ASOIAF. 

 

I don't see Daenerys agreeing to marry Euron especially if he does somehow snatch a dragon, that kind of makes him her enemy, and a dangerous enemy at that. 

 

But I personally don't believe he will get a dragon. 

 

Also as an aside, I think sometimes people overhype The Forsaken. It builds up Euron as this unstoppable eldritch dark lord, maybe he is, or is becoming, but to think Euron will have everything go right for him is silly, at least in my opinion. 

Also since we can mention the show here, if Euron is to marry Daenerys, then the show would have reflected that. The "Euron marries Daenerys" fan theory, if true would have required Euron be introduced at least in season 5 or four. It doesn't work with what we know. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Lord Invictus

[BalerionTheCat]

On 10/30/2019 at 10:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I can buy it (I dont really care that much). So what do you think that vision predicts then?

I believe Euron is a serious player. His brothers Balon, Victarion, Aeron even Theon and Asha are total losers. In a deceiving manner, Euron is their complete opposite. Maybe he was a loser too. But in his travels he found something.

Aeron visions are, I suppose, what could happen. Delirious, distorted, but meaningful. Euron plans for a new god. Not the Great Other, not R'hllor, but himself (or maybe what power has taken hold of him). Sure, it will fail. But I believe it will be close. Some have petty goals, getting a castle, becoming lord paramount of the Trident. The most ambitious, getting the Iron Throne. Euron doesn't stop there.

He is using priests to somehow get access to the power of their gods. R'hllor from the Red priests, the 7 from the septons, the Drowned God from Aeron. Don't know what from the Warlocks. He is always talking of gods. Somehow he wants Daenerys to get other powers, the dragons, maybe this "pale fire", something different of R'hllor Flame and Shadows.  Anyway, Cersei has no value, no magic, for him.

23 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

Also as an aside, I think sometimes people overhype The Forsaken. It builds up Euron as this unstoppable eldritch dark lord, maybe he is, or is becoming, but to think Euron will have everything go right for him is silly, at least in my opinion.

Of course it will fail at some point. But I believe he means serious business.

[Lord Invictus]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe Euron is a serious player. His brothers Balon, Victarion, Aeron even Theon and Asha are total losers. In a deceiving manner, Euron is their complete opposite. Maybe he was a loser too. But in his travels he found something.

Aeron visions are, I suppose, what could happen. Delirious, distorted, but meaningful. Euron plans for a new god. Not the Great Other, not R'hllor, but himself (or maybe what power has taken hold of him). Sure, it will fail. But I believe it will be close. Some have petty goals, getting a castle, becoming lord paramount of the Trident. The most ambitious, getting the Iron Throne. Euron doesn't stop there.

He is using priests to somehow get access to the power of their gods. R'hllor from the Red priests, the 7 from the septons, the Drowned God from Aeron. Don't know what from the Warlocks. He is always talking of gods. Somehow he wants Daenerys to get other powers, the dragons, maybe this "pale fire", something different of R'hllor Flame and Shadows.  Anyway, Cersei has no value, no magic, for him.

Of course it will fail at some point. But I believe he means serious business.

Of course he does. My point is that his schemes and ambitions as they stand now won't succeed, at least in their entirety and definitely not at the beginning of the book. I expect Euron will only achieve partial success at Oldtown, possibly destroying the Redwyne Fleet and maybe sacking the city but the plan to gain control of a dragon will fail, perhaps because Victarion will forge his own path or something or someone else will cause his (immediate) plans to go haywire. 

 

Cersei will likely be a step down but Euron will likely ally with her out of opportunism and shared enemies. His plan of ascension will fail, both in the long run and because of immediate opposition. 

 

I certainly don't see Daenerys marrying him, and she isn't even getting to Westeros until Dream(at the same time I don't see the Cersei/Euron alliance happening until Dream either). 

 

Euron may have divine ambitions but at the moment he is just another warlord vying for control of Westeros. If Cersei makes it to the west, she will need allies against Aegon, any westermen that join him(Tyrek backers perhaps?), and perhaps Tyrion and or Daenerys when they show up. For Euron to sit on the IT, he needs to defeat the current occupant or seize the throne when it is unoccupied. 

 

In the South, in Dream I can see a Cersei/Euron vs Aegon vs Daenerys vs whatever Stark loyalists remain and their sundry allies. 

 

But that's just my general take. We shall see. 

[BalerionTheCat]

12 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

the plan to gain control of a dragon will fail, perhaps because Victarion will forge his own path

Totally wild guess to determine what will happen. But Moqorro fears Euron most.

Quote

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

I would guess Moqorro will play Victarion against Euron. Victarion who would have Daenerys and the dragons for himself. Daenerys no way, but the dragons... When Daenerys will come to Westeros, she will have no one for help. No choice but Euron. If she dares it.

If Moqorro misses Daenerys, as is likely, his intervention with Victarion will work against him. As it did for Illrio and fAegon. Pushing Daenerys to Euron.

[Lord Invictus]

Aegon will likely sit the Iron Throne when she arrives.

With Euron holding the iron islands, (possibly) the westerlands, and maybe part of the reach. 

Politically speaking Euron is just another rival for the Iron Throne. And personally I don’t see Daenerys and Euron coming into direct military or political contact until sometime in Dream. 

[SeanF]

After reading about D & D at the Austin Film Festival, I'd now say "Not a lot".  I think that TWOW and ADOS will only bear the vaguest relation to Seasons 6 to 8.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

After reading about D & D at the Austin Film Festival, I'd now say "Not a lot".  I think that TWOW and ADOS will only bear the vaguest relation to Seasons 6 to 8.

Yes, after comments like: (Needle & Pen (@ForArya)

Quote

Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

Or:

Quote

We didn’t understand the characters. We also didn’t understand dialogue, pacing, world-building, basic fantasy and also GRRM’s books.

Or:

Quote

Did you really sit down and try to boil the elements of the books down? Did you really try to understand it’s major elements.

No. We didn’t. The scope was too big. It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power.

All the Long Night stuff was making no sense. And little elsewhere.

Edited November 2, 2019 by BalerionTheCat

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, after comments like: (Needle & Pen (@ForArya)

Or:

Or:

All the Long Night stuff was making no sense. And little elsewhere.

I suppose one has to admire their honesty in a way.  They plainly didn't have a clue.

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I suppose one has to admire their honesty in a way.  They plainly didn't have a clue. 

Here a link to the audio. The words are not all D&D's... Will have to find what they exactly said about fantasy elements and understanding the books.

GOT panel at Austin Film Festival

ETA:
About removing as many fantasy elements as possible: 28:10
About sitting down and try to boil the elements of the books: 48:30

Edited November 2, 2019 by BalerionTheCat

[Lord Invictus]

Ehrm, a lot of the things in that interview were taken out of context, and were used by someone with an axe to grind.

Also the impression I got didn’t change the notion the ending will be generally the same. D&D were never asked nor did they say-“there are or will be substantial differences” when such clarification could have easily been made. 

As it is, I am generally content with the show ending. At least it’s main aspects with regards to characters.

I question how much of the notion the books will be vastly different comes down to wish fulfillment or a strong dislike of the show. 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Lord Invictus
Adding clarification