Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, LordImp said:

I have a hard time beliving that king Bran was something D&D did on their own. They had no idea what to do with Bran , they didn't care about Bran they wanted to kill off Bran but George convinced them otherwise. If D&D had chosen whoever they wanted as monarch they would have gone with something safer and more fan pleasing like Jon , Dany or Sansa. 

And don't forget that GRRM told them the ending. If Jon , Sansa or even (F) Aegon ended up ruling in GRRM's ending D&D would likely have done the same. Tbh I don't think they have the balls to change major parts of his ending. 

So major things like King Bran , burning of KL and Dany's madness is most likely from George. While minor stuff like Bronn as Lord of Highgarden and master of coin and Podrick as kingsguard is D&Ds invention.

Though I think D&D did some changes to please fans. Sansa becoming QitN for example I think is D&D trying to please fans. I think it's more likely Rickon becomes the head Stark , but D&D ( and fans) didn't care about Rickon so they gave the role to Sansa instead. Maybe Sansa becomes a regent for Rickon , but D&D didn't like that so they went with queen Sansa instead. I think Sansa will be in a power situation probably as Rickon's regent or ruler in the Vale. 

Cersei could be another example of how D&D has changed things. Cersei was obviously a favorite of them , so they kept her in power instead of using Faegon or book Euron . I doubt Cersei holds KL by the end , Euron or Faegon seems more likely to me. I'm not ruling out that Cersei has a presence in the end , but not as Queen of the seven kingdoms. I think she might be Euron's queen though based on the Forsaken chapter . 

The main differences between the show and the books will be how we get to the end. This is also what D&D has said all the time that the road to the ending will be different . So how Bran becomes king , how Dany goes mad and how KL is destroyed. 

The biggest difference I think will be the WW and magic in general. I have a hard time seeing the WW plot going down the same way in the books. On the show they where portrayed as pure evil , and George has said several times that he dosen't want to write a black and white story. Obviously they didn't know how to handle the magical aspect . 

 

There are huge differences between the show, and what we've already read in the books.

I think the biggest overall will be that the climax of the books will be the War for the Dawn, rather than the fight for Kings Landing.

I think the likeliest outcome is that Kings Landing burns when Daenerys takes it by storm, but there are other possibilities.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/7/2020 at 4:16 PM, LordImp said:

I have a hard time beliving that king Bran was something D&D did on their own. They had no idea what to do with Bran , they didn't care about Bran they wanted to kill off Bran but George convinced them otherwise. If D&D had chosen whoever they wanted as monarch they would have gone with something safer and more fan pleasing like Jon , Dany or Sansa. 

And don't forget that GRRM told them the ending. If Jon , Sansa or even (F) Aegon ended up ruling in GRRM's ending D&D would likely have done the same. Tbh I don't think they have the balls to change major parts of his ending. 

So major things like King Bran , burning of KL and Dany's madness is most likely from George. While minor stuff like Bronn as Lord of Highgarden and master of coin and Podrick as kingsguard is D&Ds invention.

Though I think D&D did some changes to please fans. Sansa becoming QitN for example I think is D&D trying to please fans. I think it's more likely Rickon becomes the head Stark , but D&D ( and fans) didn't care about Rickon so they gave the role to Sansa instead. Maybe Sansa becomes a regent for Rickon , but D&D didn't like that so they went with queen Sansa instead. I think Sansa will be in a power situation probably as Rickon's regent or ruler in the Vale. 

Cersei could be another example of how D&D has changed things. Cersei was obviously a favorite of them , so they kept her in power instead of using Faegon or book Euron . I doubt Cersei holds KL by the end , Euron or Faegon seems more likely to me. I'm not ruling out that Cersei has a presence in the end , but not as Queen of the seven kingdoms. I think she might be Euron's queen though based on the Forsaken chapter . 

The main differences between the show and the books will be how we get to the end. This is also what D&D has said all the time that the road to the ending will be different . So how Bran becomes king , how Dany goes mad and how KL is destroyed. 

The biggest difference I think will be the WW and magic in general. I have a hard time seeing the WW plot going down the same way in the books. On the show they where portrayed as pure evil , and George has said several times that he dosen't want to write a black and white story. Obviously they didn't know how to handle the magical aspect . 

 

I strongly disagree. On one hand, I doubt Dany's "madness" is going to be a point moving forward.

Madness in the sense that she repeatedly does what she wants to do when she wants to do it and that no one can make heads or tails of it? Sure, people thought Dany mad for walking into the flames at Drogo's funeral pyre or for not going back to Pentos or whatever. That's completely in character for Dany to be mischaracterized as mad because she marches to the beat of her own drum.

But madness in the sense of legitimate mental illness and deriving pleasure out of cruelty and bloodlust. Nope. That's just not her. She's not even the type to just completely lose her cool, become very impulsive and fly into these uncontrollable rages. That actually is a trait shared by Sansa, Arya, Jon, Rickon, Benjen and Lyanna. And she's not even vengeful.

King's Landing, the Red Keep and the Iron Throne probably all will be destroyed. I'd argue that the Iron Throne needs to be destroyed and that King's Landing is overdue for a reset. It may all be done by Daenerys but it will be done for good reason. Not because she's angry about winning.

On the other hand, there's the matter of the Rickon/Sansa/North thing. There's no way of sugarcoating it but the North will not be independent...especially not after being the first of the Seven Kingdoms to be victimized by the Long Night. And especially not after Dorne and the Iron Islands have even bigger reasons to want independence for themselves and actually have the means to survive on their own.

[GoldenGail3]

NO KING BRAN NOOOOO that’s all I have to say 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/7/2020 at 1:16 PM, LordImp said:

Tbh I don't think they have the balls to change major parts of his ending. 

Yeah, but arent they contractually obligated to adapt it to match the ending? 

Why would GRRM give them the rights then let them do something radically, completely different? His name is stamped all over it. He couldn't let them do that. It's probably all written down in legalese somewhere. 

On 6/7/2020 at 1:16 PM, LordImp said:

So major things like King Bran , burning of KL and Dany's madness is most likely from George. While minor stuff like Bronn as Lord of Highgarden and master of coin and Podrick as kingsguard is D&Ds invention.

Yup, minor characters are like...whatever. He doesnt' care.

On 6/7/2020 at 1:16 PM, LordImp said:

Cersei could be another example of how D&D has changed things. Cersei was obviously a favorite of them , so they kept her in power instead of using Faegon or book Euron . I doubt Cersei holds KL by the end , Euron or Faegon seems more likely to me. I'm not ruling out that Cersei has a presence in the end , but not as Queen of the seven kingdoms. I think she might be Euron's queen though based on the Forsaken chapter .

*GASP* how dare you brand that Lannister sigil!!

Cersei is a certifiable ruthless badass bitch, in show and books.

Her being the last queen to sit on the Iron Throne and last until the end, was GLORIOUS. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Rose of Red Lake

[Lady Anna]

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks the show has more elements from the books than it's assumed. Denying that assumption is normal, but thinking otherwise is equally normal. Tha fact is, the show gave us more material to think about, and a lot of theories and discussions - even in the General forum here - are now based on what happened on screen. Yes, we all hated the show, it was terrible, but I think some things came definitely from George, and we need to accept that (hold the door, anyone?).

Whether they will still happen on the books is another question, but at some point, for example, King Bran was an actual thing in George's mind. Imo the show, while being what it was, was still something George was involved in, and I think there are some good things to be taken from it.

[Cas Stark]

Show v. Book

Dany becomes a tyrant 99.9%

Dany dies 99.9%

Jon returns to the Wall 99.8%

Jon kills Dany 70%

Jon kills Dany in bizarro reverse Romeo/Juliet 25%

Arya leaves Westeros 99.9%

Cersei and Jamie die together 99.9%

Cersei and Jamie die w/no drama, revelations or emotion  25%

Tyrion lives and profits 90%

Bran becomes King  90%

Bran becomes King in the same bizarro stupid manner 25%

Sansa becomes queen *I don't want this to happen so can't be objective here, but probably will happen.

Shaggy Dog and Rickon die 90%

Arya kills the Night King/defeats Others 1%

 

 

 

[SeanF]

Too many moving parts are different to offer any confident predictions.

 

[Darryk]

I just hope the white walkers do more damage than taking over one castle in the North before being destroyed at Winterfell.

I imagined an apocalyptic scenario where they ravage their way through the seven kingdoms, maybe even getting as far as King's Landing.

Or at least have a proper long winter where the white walkers are roaming about and people are hiding away in their castles, starving.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I just hope the white walkers do more damage than taking over one castle in the North before being destroyed at Winterfell.

I imagined an apocalyptic scenario where they ravage their way through the seven kingdoms, maybe even getting as far as King's Landing.

Or at least have a proper long winter where the white walkers are roaming about and people are hiding away in their castles, starving.

I would be 99% certain that the climax to the tale is the fight against the Others, not the fight for Kings Landing, and that the six main POV characters survive up to that point, even if they don't all survive past it.

[Sace]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I would be 99% certain that the climax to the tale is the fight against the Others, not the fight for Kings Landing, and that the six main POV characters survive up to that point, even if they don't all survive past it.

Sure it will be, but the fight against the Others will probably not be as stupid as it was in the show, it may expand to the whole country. I believe that king's landing and the throne room are places where the Others will be for some time

[Rose of Red Lake]

Battle for King's Landing in the show fits the Scouring of the Shire, in the sense that there was one last battle to fight after the Big One, and that it was about fighting tyranny imposed on people. If Dany burns King's Landing first, I doubt Jon would trust or kneel to someone like that. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Battle for King's Landing in the show fits the Scouring of the Shire, in the sense that there was one last battle to fight after the Big One, and that it was about fighting tyranny imposed on people. If Dany burns King's Landing first, I doubt Jon would trust or kneel to someone like that. 

You're absolutely right! I remember reading about Aragorn mercilessly slicing through innocent hobbits as the Shire burst into conflagration on his command, telling himself this was the price to pay for liberation and the return of Númenor.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

You're absolutely right! I remember reading about Aragorn mercilessly slicing through innocent hobbits as the Shire burst into conflagration on his command, telling himself this was the price to pay for liberation and the return of Númenor.

Or maybe just a mix of Aragorn with the One Ring (dragons), and Saruman who strikes out at a defenseless people at one last gasp for power.

GRRM: "The story’s over, and they destroyed the ring — but he didn’t write 'and now they lived happily ever after.' Instead, they went home and home was all fucked up. The evil guys had burned down some of the woods; a fascist-like tyranny had taken over."

So Dany could do this to Winterfell or King's Landing, doesn't matter which, really. The point is that there's one last fight - one that the characters did not expect or foresee.

[Many-Faced Votary]

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Or maybe just a mix of Aragorn with the One Ring (dragons), and Saruman who strikes out at a defenseless people at one last gasp for power.

GRRM: "The story’s over, and they destroyed the ring — but he didn’t write 'and now they lived happily ever after.' Instead, they went home and home was all fucked up. The evil guys had burned down some of the woods; a fascist-like tyranny had taken over."

So Dany could do this to Winterfell or King's Landing, doesn't matter which, really. The point is that there's one last fight - one that the characters did not expect or foresee.

I'm sorry to disagree with your headcanon, but dragons are not remotely like the One Ring, nor have they ever been described similarly or symbolized to act as an agent of perversion. They are themselves neither good nor evil, and nothing about them -- or power -- inherently corrupts. Indeed, Mr. Martin has written multiple works that reflect his belief that power concedes nothing without a demand, to quote Mr. Frederick Douglass. 

Saruman, shockingly enough, was an established villain with established motives and consistent characterization. What he did was exploit the petty sins the hobbits of the Shire were guilty of in order to seize this modicum of power out of his desire for it and out of spite, given that his previous goals of Ring-making and amplifying the power he used to possess as an Istari had become impossible. Even so, his fate is meant to evoke sorrow and pity even as we are supposed to denounce his willingness to succumb to his character flaws.

What the Scouring of the Shire represents in a concrete, applicable sense is the reality of life after war, as well as how the human condition might improve due to necessity but can never approach an idealistic state through the means of war and violence. Beyond that, more abstractly, we have the hero's journey of achieving their goals externally in lieu of an internal spiritual journey, which ultimately enables them to help and renew their home through the wisdom and power they accrued during it. It also works as an expertly-devised plot device that simultaneously reveals to us the completion of Saruman's arc and the destructive nature of vengeance, the growth of the heroic hobbits and how they indeed earned their victories, humility and how the ultimate act is to renounce an object of great power rather than attain one, how evil is persistent even without directly taking form as a Dark Lord, and the power of hope.

Regarding your quote about tyranny, besides ignoring the context, you seem to disregard why it applies in this case. Fascism had taken over because the Scouring was -- whether or not it was strictly intentional, for Mr. Tolkien disliked allegory -- reflective of the tenuous peace after the Great War, and that very much included political dissent and much discourse that gave rise to extremism in response to the inexorable rise of capitalism, meaning both communism and fascism, which in turn led to the wars that followed. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

KL doesn't work as a Shire analogue, anyway. It's not built up as a warm romantic place, either in the books or the show. If there's going to be a "Scouring of the Shire", it'd have to be the destruction of Winterfell. ETA: actually, that's already happened.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Hodor the Articulate

[WolfOfWinter]

It means that those of us who never bought into Dany's BS will have a mighty fine time if the books are ever released. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

It means that those of us who never bought into Dany's BS will have a mighty fine time if the books are ever released. 

someone on twitter summed it up: 

https://twitter.com/PyaasiChudail69/status/1281820797124804608?s=20

[WolfOfWinter]

51 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

someone on twitter summed it up: 

https://twitter.com/PyaasiChudail69/status/1281820797124804608?s=20

Oh how I wish the remaining books will be released one day. Watching Daenerys fail to win over Westeros and succumbing to tyranny will be glorious.

There are so many things I wish to experience twice (and some for the first time). Please just give me a Stark reunion, George. 

[BlackLightning]

I just find it funny that some people are willing to entertain Cersei's BS and continued tyranny as glorious but are quick to denounce Dany's BS as tyrannical and mad and that her fall into tyranny was glorious.

Possibly these people sort of people wanted D&D to make the show Confederate where chattel slavery was allowed to continue.

On 7/6/2020 at 1:52 PM, Cas Stark said:

Show v. Book

Dany becomes a tyrant 99.9%

Dany dies 99.9%

Jon returns to the Wall 99.8%

Jon kills Dany 70%

Jon kills Dany in bizarro reverse Romeo/Juliet 25%

Arya leaves Westeros 99.9%

Cersei and Jamie die together 99.9%

Cersei and Jamie die w/no drama, revelations or emotion  25%

Tyrion lives and profits 90%

Bran becomes King  90%

Bran becomes King in the same bizarro stupid manner 25%

Sansa becomes queen *I don't want this to happen so can't be objective here, but probably will happen.

Shaggy Dog and Rickon die 90%

Arya kills the Night King/defeats Others 1%

If Ned Stark dies in an attempt to do the right thing in the wrong way, then Tyrion Lannister is doomed.

Especially if he tries to profit off the misery of others and/or manipulate other people into self-destructing.

If Jon kills Dany, then Jon is dead meat. Jon will be guilty of regicide and kinslaying...and possibly violating guest right. He's not getting away with that...especially not given his history with the Night's Watch and how he basically broke some of the most important parts of his vows and proceeded to implode the Watch.

[Cas Stark]

58 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I just find it funny that some people are willing to entertain Cersei's BS and continued tyranny as glorious but are quick to denounce Dany's BS as tyrannical and mad and that her fall into tyranny was glorious.

Possibly these people sort of people wanted D&D to make the show Confederate where chattel slavery was allowed to continue.

If Ned Stark dies in an attempt to do the right thing in the wrong way, then Tyrion Lannister is doomed.

Especially if he tries to profit off the misery of others and/or manipulate other people into self-destructing.

If Jon kills Dany, then Jon is dead meat. Jon will be guilty of regicide and kinslaying...and possibly violating guest right. He's not getting away with that...especially not given his history with the Night's Watch and how he basically broke some of the most important parts of his vows and proceeded to implode the Watch.

I don't agree.  The books so far have brought very little retribution to the bad guys, and much misery to the good guys that cannot be undone, the worst people continue to succeed and profit, and as GRRM favorite character+ending of the show, indicates that Tyrion will live and retain power in Westeros.  

Jon may not kill Dany directly but participate in whatever it is that causes her death, this is why he exiles himself.  Tyrion it appears will also not be punished by the author for kinslaying in any meaningful way.