Rose of Red Lake Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 In a way Dany violated everyone's guest right in the city by killing all of them. She didnt seem to care about that place and was ready to jump into the next genocide so Jon did everyone a favor. Thats why he lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 On 5/20/2019 at 12:02 PM, DraculaAD1972 said: On the true side I would imagine much has been revealed. Shireen will burn. Dany torches the city. Jon kills Dany. Bran becomes King. Drogon melts down the IT. Stannis doesn't win in the end. Littlefinger does not win in the end. Jaime and Cersei die in each other arms. Tyrion is Bran's Hand. The Others are defeated at Winterfell. No. Their is no night king in the books, the Others will be different. Dany will burn Volantis, not kingslanding. Bran will become king but not through political means. Drogon will not melt the Iron Throne (which is much bigger in the books). Littlefingers will survive, the Valonqar will kill Cersei. Tyrion will NOT be Bran's hand, thats ridiculous. He isn't even Daenerys' hand in the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Their is no night king in the books, the Others will be different. Dany will burn Volantis, not kingslanding. There is no need for a Night King, for the Others to be defeated in Winterfell. At some place the will be defeated for good. Winterfell could very well be. 11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Drogon will not melt the Iron Throne (which is much bigger in the books). Dragons melted the walls of Harrenhall. The Iron Throne is a joke compared to that. A grown up Drogon will definitively be able to melt iron. 11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Littlefingers will survive On what are you basing this statement. Even without the Show, I would have bet he is a gonner. 11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: He isn't even Daenerys' hand in the books. You do know, he hasn't even met Daenerys in the books right? There is still some story left in the books until Endgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 I think key elements or key plotpoints are shown in the show, that will happen in the books, but probably in a complete different way. Those points are in my opinion: - The Hodor revelation - The burning of Shereen by Stanis hands - The fall of the Wall - Jons return - Dannys return to Westeros and her invasion - Jon killing Danny - Jon leaving to the North at the end and living with the Wildlings - Bran becoming King - Tyrion becoming hand of the King (or some sort of advisor) - Sansa becoming queen in the North (Queen Elisabeth I) - Obviously Jons parentage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 6 hours ago, Dalinar said: There is no need for a Night King, for the Others to be defeated in Winterfell. At some place the will be defeated for good. Winterfell could very well be. They won't be a hive of mindless orcs looking to destroy the world. GRRM doesn't want to write that story as he has repeated many times. There will be no final epic battle like in LOTR 6 hours ago, Dalinar said: Dragons melted the walls of Harrenhall. The Iron Throne is a joke compared to that. A grown up Drogon will definitively be able to melt iron. Drogon is 20 ft wide from each wing tip, he can't burn through stone. But besides all that Dragon's don't understand symbolism, it was just a dumb story thread D&D added like making Bronn warden of the reach. 6 hours ago, Dalinar said: On what are you basing this statement. Even without the Show, I would have bet he is a gonner. He has many more plans in the books and GRRM himself said he is smarter than Varys. People underestimate his staying power and think Sansa (a thirteen year old girl) will out smart him. The reason D&D gave for killing him was that they need characters to unite to fight the white walkers which has nothing to do with the books. 6 hours ago, Dalinar said: You do know, he hasn't even met Daenerys in the books right? There is still some story left in the books until Endgame. GRRM has already discussed this, they will cross paths but go separate ways. Tyrion will work his way up in the second sons. Dany doesn't know Tyrion and would never trust him, the thing in the show was dumb fan service for people who wanted to see their favorite character team up. Barristan has been playing the role of Hand since Dany has left unlike Tyrion in the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: They won't be a hive of mindless orcs looking to destroy the world. GRRM doesn't want to write that story as he has repeated many times. There will be no final epic battle like in LOTR Those two statements you are making are not connected to each other at all. First, we don't know anything about the Others. They could or could not be "mindless". GRRM has never said anything like what the Others are in the closest. That would be stupid as it would spoil his books. Second, and most important, even if they are not "mindless", why on earth cant there stiöl be a final battle? You make those claims, as it is obvious, when in fact, we know nothing. 25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Drogon is 20 ft wide from each wing tip, he can't burn through stone. But besides all that Dragon's don't understand symbolism, it was just a dumb story thread D&D added like making Bronn warden of the reach. Yes, but you are constantly making your arguments based on the status quo from material up until "Dance". This argument makes no sense at all, because of course Dannys dragons will grow to a point when they are considered a threat. Otherwise, at this point, she has three dogs who can breath fire. I dont think, and no one actually thinks, it will stay like this. Drogon will grow big. If he is not able to melt the Iron Throne at the end, then Westeros has nothing to fear. 30 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: GRRM has already discussed this, they will cross paths but go separate ways. You are taking his words out of context here a little. He was once asked by fans if Tyrion and Danny will meet in Winds, and he said that they will be apart for most of the book (Winds mind you, he was not talking about Dream) but they will intersect in some way or another and didn't wanted to go further for obvious reasons. But he of course never claimed that they will "go separate ways" forever as you claim. His quote means actually nothing, as it gives nothing away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dalinar said: Those two statements you are making are not connected to each other at all. First, we don't know anything about the Others. They could or could not be "mindless". GRRM has never said anything like what the Others are in the closest. That would be stupid as it would spoil his books. Second, and most important, even if they are not "mindless", why on earth cant there stiöl be a final battle? You make those claims, as it is obvious, when in fact, we know nothing. Yeah, an epic battle between good and evil in Winterfell is not happening. This is not LOTR or Avengers endgame. We don't know who or what the Others are, but the global domination mentality came from stealing Euron's plot line for the Night King. And we do know something. The four elements Aristotle set up (wind, earth, fire, and water) are made to be repersented by prehistoric races. In Valyria before the dragon lords, the children of the forest in westeros, and Others represent the cold/ice. We'll learn more about them in the next book but saying something like the battle of winterfell is happening in the books without evidence is a faulty claim. Quote Yes, but you are constantly making your arguments based on the status quo from material up until "Dance". This argument makes no sense at all, because of course Dannys dragons will grow to a point when they are considered a threat. Otherwise, at this point, she has three dogs who can breath fire. I dont think, and no one actually thinks, it will stay like this. Drogon will grow big. If he is not able to melt the Iron Throne at the end, then Westeros has nothing to fear. As opposed to the statement I was responding to that was making nonsensical claims based off of what the show did. The book series and Fire&Blood have established dragons as having no conception of human symbolism. So what would lead you to believe it would happen in the books just because D&D wanted to add a dumb scene at the end of season 8? That is the claim, I am countering the claim. It is on the person who says "drogon will burn the iron throne" to explain what in the books lead you to believe that is a remote possibility? On a side note Dany's vision of walking into a ruined red keep in season 2 was show only. Quote You are taking his words out of context here a little. He was once asked by fans if Tyrion and Danny will meet in Winds, and he said that they will be apart for most of the book (Winds mind you, he was not talking about Dream) but they will intersect in some way or another and didn't wanted to go further for obvious reasons. But he of course never claimed that they will "go separate ways" forever as you claim. His quote means actually nothing, as it gives nothing away. No I'm not, you're extrapolating that Tyrion will be Dany's hand despite having zero evidence. Barristan right now is playing the role Tyrion did in the show. Tyrion is set up in the books to be a member of the second sons. Now explain to me why or how he would become Dany's hand when she has people she trusts, and people who are a big part of her POV? It was fan service in the show, but its not consistent with is what is in the books. Now you are assuming that Dany and Tyrion will become great allies by book 7 despite having no built relationship (crossing paths does not mean building a relationship). That is a spectacular claim, and I hope you could provide evidence. I really can't understand how you are framing this as me having to provide evidence. I am the one disputing the claims being made with zero evidence. It is on the other person to provide information from the books and their timeline and how they have been set up to explain why something will happen the way it will. Edited September 16, 2020 by butterweedstrover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 On 9/1/2020 at 10:15 PM, BlackLightning said: Frankly, that is the reason why I think Jon will die in the books. To be a kingslayer, a kinslayer and a disgraced member of the Night's Watch.....Jon would be toast. Especially since he was offered guest right and had killed his king and kin in their own home (!!!). It becomes even more egregious if Jon and Dany are husband and wife by that point as well. Oof! If Jon lets Tyrion backdoor him into killing Dany in her own home, Jon might as well kill himself because he will be doomed. I think he will be banished beyond the wall. But on his own. (Ghost?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said: really can't understand how you are framing this as me having to provide evidence. I am the one disputing the claims being made with zero evidence. It is on the other person to provide information from the books and their timeline and how they have been set up to explain why something will happen the way it will. It was you, who started to make definitive statements. See: 23 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: No. Their is no night king in the books, the Others will be different. Dany will burn Volantis, not kingslanding. Bran will become king but not through political means. Drogon will not melt the Iron Throne (which is much bigger in the books). Littlefingers will survive, the Valonqar will kill Cersei. Tyrion will NOT be Bran's hand, thats ridiculous. He isn't even Daenerys' hand in the books. So, by using Hitchens razor, I don't have to provide evidence for my claims, because you arent using (can't use) evidence either, and yet you started it. To be fair, neither of us two can, because, well we don't have the book(s). So let us just agree to disagree, shall we? Edited September 16, 2020 by Dalinar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dalinar said: It was you, who started to make definitive statements. See: So, by using Hitchens razor, I don't have to provide evidence for my claims, because you arent using (can't use) evidence either, and yet you started it. To be fair, neither of us two can, because, well we don't have the book(s). So let us just agree to disagree, shall we? Dany burning Volantis has plenty of evidence in book 5. The rest are rejections of baseless theories. On what grounds has the book established for the lords of westeros supporting a total unknown to the throne? On what grounds has it been established that Drogon could understand human symbolism? On what grounds do you have to say Baelish will be outsmarted and killed by Sansa? On what grounds does anyone have to say Tyrion will be Daenerys hand? Please answer these questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Please answer these questions. This thread is about speculating. I can only speculate. I already posted what I think might (!!!!) happen if you care to read. I am not GRRM. I don't know it for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Dalinar said: This thread is about speculating. I can only speculate. I already posted what I think might (!!!!) happen if you care to read. I am not GRRM. I don't know it for sure. Yes but how could these things be hypothetical probably when they go against the themes, world-building, and character development of the last five books. I could theorize that Theon will become a close confidant of Stannis. It is a claim that goes against the politics, rules, and characterizations of the past five novels. If I make that claim I should offer some evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Yes but how could these things be hypothetical probably when they go against the themes, world-building, and character development of the last five books. I could theorize that Theon will become a close confidant of Stannis. It is a claim that goes against the politics, rules, and characterizations of the past five novels. If I make that claim I should offer some evidence. How does this go against the themes: 22 hours ago, Dalinar said: I think key elements or key plotpoints are shown in the show, that will happen in the books, but probably in a complete different way. Those points are in my opinion: - The Hodor revelation - The burning of Shereen by Stanis hands - The fall of the Wall - Jons return - Dannys return to Westeros and her invasion - Jon killing Danny - Jon leaving to the North at the end and living with the Wildlings - Bran becoming King - Tyrion becoming hand of the King (or some sort of advisor) - Sansa becoming queen in the North (Queen Elisabeth I) - Obviously Jons parentage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlydragon Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 On 9/16/2020 at 8:10 AM, Dalinar said: I think key elements or key plotpoints are shown in the show, that will happen in the books, but probably in a complete different way. Those points are in my opinion: - The burning of Shereen by Stanis hands So you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons and Freys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said: So you think Stannis will defeat the Boltons and Freys? I am not sure about how this will happen exactly. Could happen like this: - he wins the battle of Ice but the remaining troops of the Boltons/Freys retreat and go behind the safe walls of Winterfell, thus Stanis has to siege Winterfell. But the harsh winter keeps killing his troups and his supply is ending. Stanis will be in a desperate situation. Meanwhile Shereen, her mother and Melisandre flee from the Wall because there will be a revolution from the Wildlings for the assasination of Jon. They flee south and are capured by some troops of Stanis who are heading north to get supply and maybe some troops from the Wall (Wildlings or even from the watch). So they reach Stanis camp right infront of Winterfell. The news that there is war at the wall, his supply is gone and he wont get any troops and the winter gets worse and worse make Stanis nearly insane. He accepts Melisandres advice and burns Shereen. Since the Showrunners have allready said in Season 5 that "Stanis burnin Shereen" is straight from GRRM (this being how they called it the second "Holy shit moment"), I don't think that this specific plotpoint (not how, albeit) is even to doubt. Edited September 17, 2020 by Dalinar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlydragon Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dalinar said: I am not sure about how this will happen exactly. Could happen like this: - he wins the battle of Ice but the remaining troops of the Boltons/Freys retreat and go behind the safe walls of Winterfell, thus Stanis has to siege Winterfell. But the harsh winter keeps killing his troups and his supply is ending. Stanis will be in a desperate situation. Meanwhile Shereen, her mother and Melisandre flee from the Wall because there will be a revolution from the Wildlings for the assasination of Jon. They flee south and are capured by some troops of Stanis who are heading north to get supply and maybe some troops from the Wall (Wildlings or even from the watch). So they reach Stanis camp right infront of Winterfell. The news that there is war at the wall, his supply is gone and he wont get any troops and the winter gets worse and worse make Stanis nearly insane. He accepts Melisandres advice and burns Shereen. Since the Showrunners have allready said in Season 5 that "Stanis burnin Shereen" is straight from GRRM (this being how they called it the second "Holy shit moment"), I don't think that this specific plotpoint (not how, albeit) is even to doubt. Interesting ideas. And didn't GRRM just say she is burned, but D&D decided to change it to make Stannis far worse than he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said: Interesting ideas. And didn't GRRM just say she is burned, but D&D decided to change it to make Stannis far worse than he is. Watch the "Behind the scenes" part. It is also on YouTube. I can't right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Dalinar said: Watch the "Behind the scenes" part. It is also on YouTube. I can't right now Yes, and that's not what happened. They said the most shocking thing was seeing Shireen burn. Them pinning it on GRRM through association was wrong. But they're D&D so what do you expect. Ghostlydragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalinar Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Yes, and that's not what happened. They said the most shocking thing was seeing Shireen burn. Them pinning it on GRRM through association was wrong. But they're D&D so what do you expect. I am kind of lost here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Dalinar said: I am kind of lost here. No where has it been said Stannis burns Shireen. No where. Sites make that assumption in the summary but else wise its not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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