Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[BlackLightning]

On 10/10/2020 at 2:28 PM, Cas Stark said:

There is no way they would take a character they never liked, Bran, in a story they sidelined since season 4, and put him on the throne unless GRRM told them this was the end.  As for George, since I find him capable of almost any BS, he's capable of changing his ending that won't be written even though he has always said he won't do that.  Certainly GRRM version of the story will not be brutally insane and stupid, but I doubt I will like the end of the sage either.  He would also have been capable of not giving the D's the details on how Bran would become King in order to preserve something for the books, letting them of course come up with something totally asinine.  IMO

You're operating under the assumption that GRRM failed to tell D&D how Bran would become king. That's weird, given that the natural reaction to "Bran will be king at the end of the story" is either "how" or "why."

I believe that GRRM told them how and why Bran would become king (it's NOT likely he went ad nauseum about the details) and that they chose not to ignore what he had told them.

Take the Stannis/Shireen example for instance. Stannis is not going sacrifice his only child to the flames in order to change the weather forecast because 20 good men destroyed his supply lines. And to keep it real, we don't know who is going to burn Shireen nor do we know the why or the when of it. GRRM confirms that Shireen will burn but he doesn't say that Stannis is the one responsible or that she burns to secure Stannis' reign.

[Mithras]

TL DR: Egg is meant to be a precursor to Dany, including his tragic end.

After Dany’s downfall is revealed in the show, the readers realized how essential the involvement of Young Griff is in the story. But the important thing is that Young Griff does not come out of thin air. He comes riding a backstory, the Blackfyre expansion of the world-building.

GRRM created the Blackfyre backstory during the writing of ACoK where the series expanded from 4 books to 6 books with a 5 year gap after book 3. Before this point, Dany’s “invasion” was supposed to be the “second greatest threat” to Westeros. This was a vague idea that GRRM did not have clear clues to work with. After the Blackfyre angle was created, this upcoming conflict of Dany became more grounded in history and hence promising a stronger story.

But GRRM did not stop there. He also created another backstory; the Dance of Dragons, which clearly gives another perspective to the upcoming conflict between Dany and Young Griff. It is unclear whether GRRM once entertained the idea of a descendant of Aerion being Dany’s adversary in the upcoming Dance of Dragons. Brightfyre theory incorporates both the Blackfyre and Brightflame angles.

Regardless of the Brightfyre theory or the pure Blackfyre theory, the ultimate purpose of GRRM seems clear: he had the endgame for Dany in mind since the beginning but he did not have clear ideas about how to reach there. The expansion of the world-building about Blackfyres and the Dance of Dragons provided him a template to work with similar conflicts and characters. All of the Targaryen history work for Fire & Blood seems like a practice for writing the story of Dany in the main series, which brings us to the main point of this thread.

I think after the show revealed Dany’s endgame, it became clear that even the D&E novellas were meant to serve as a template for Dany’s downfall. There are several parallels that can be drawn between Dany and Egg, which I leave to you because many readers made these comparisons as soon as TWOIAF was published. Some of them goes even directly to the novellas themselves.

Quote

 

There were other battles during the time of Aegon V, for the unlikely king was forced to spend much of his reign in armor, quelling one rising or another. Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a “bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.”

It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon's patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all.

And intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them. Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees.

The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

It is unfortunate that the tragedy that transpired at Summerhall left very few witnesses alive, and those who survived would not speak of it. A tantalizing page of Gyldayn's history—surely one of the very last written before his own death—hints at much, but the ink that was spilled over it in some mishap blotted out too much.

 

Long story short, when Egg became the King, he tried to make reforms that improve the lives off the smallfolk (whose troubles he knew well from his time squiring for Dunk), but this infuriated the nobility and caused a lot of troubles in his reign (hint for breaking the wheel). It also did not help that his children chose love over duty (hint hint), and married according to their heart’s desire instead of accepting those arranged marriages with Great Houses and strengthening the dynasty. By the end of his reign, Egg became convinced that the only way he could accomplish his reforms was to recreate the dragons. His pursuit for dragons ended in the Tragedy of Summerhall where House Targaryen barely survived.

The Tragedy of Summerhall was first introduced in ASoS by many references from different sources (like Alester Florent to Barristan to even the Ghost of High Heart). Then this backstory kept growing more and more. It is the great finale of the D&E novellas and GRRM conveniently avoided telling what really happened there despite publishing TWOIAF. Hell, even with a Barristan POV, GRRM is still not giving a clue, which I think hurts the story a little. It does not make sense why Dany does not learn more about her private family history, especially the Summerhall stuff, with a witness like Barristan at her disposal. GRRM clearly wants to save this mystery to the D&E novellas.

The first D&E novella, the Hedge Knight, is an oddity. There is no hint whatsoever of the First Blackfyre Rebellion that happened some 13 years ago but it was such an important event and a still standing threat at that time that it should have come up in the novella, especially with some of the characters were present. The explanation is that GRRM had not created the Blackfyre Rebellions yet when he wrote the Hedge Knight.

Finally, I am coming to the title. Leaving the Hedge Knight aside, the other two D&E novellas are all about the Blackfyre backstory, which as I argued above was created with the purpose of fleshing out Dany’s story in the main series. Now consider the Mystery Knight. D&E blunder into a Blackfyre Rebellion by accident. Egg was captured by the indecisive host Lord Butterwell, who had doubts about the outcome of the attempted rebellion. Worse, Egg’s true identity was revealed by his ring. Bloodraven had things under control regarding the outcome of the scheme but Egg’s life was in jeopardy, and maybe far worse troubles were possible if they successfully kidnapped Egg and sent him away to the hands of Bittersteel.

At this moment, the prophetic dream of Daemon II Blackfyre about a dragon hatching at Whitewalls was fulfilled:

Quote

 

“No, ser. I knew I was in trouble when the maester showed Lord Butterwell my ring. I thought about saying that I’d stolen it, but I didn’t think he would believe me. Then I remembered this one time I heard my father talking about something Lord Bloodraven said, about how it was better to be frightening than frightened, so I told them that my father had sent us here to spy for him, that he was on his way here with an army, that His Lordship had best release me and give up this treason, or it would mean his head.” He smiled a shy smile. “It worked better than I thought it would, ser.”

Dunk wanted to take the boy by the shoulders and shake him until his teeth rattled. This is no game, he might have roared. This is life and death.

 

As Bloodraven explained in the end of the story, the dream was true but Daemon was wrong about the interpretation. His egg did not hatch but the dragon that came into being was Egg, when he lied to Lord Butterwell and intimidated him by appearing sure of himself. Dunk observed a visible change in Egg and GRRM made it appear like a glorious moment for Egg.

There is still a long way from this Egg to the one who sought the ways to bring dragons so that the Great Lords would submit to his reforms. But the way GRRM explained what it means to “hatch as a dragon” in Egg’s case and how he remembered Bloodraven’s mantra that it was “better to be frightening than frightened”, we can kind of tell how Egg can agree to proceed with whatever controversial thing that was supposed happen at Summerhall. Considering Dany’s final chapter in ADwD where she embraced that “dragons plant no trees” and the show line that “let it be fear”, we can tell that in the books, Dany will lead herself into her own Tragedy of Summerhall, from which House Targaryen might not survive.

When TWOIAF was published, the wishful interpretation was that Dany will succeed where Egg failed and carry out her reforms thanks to her dragons. The show revealed that Egg’s end was not an inversion but a sign of things to come for Dany.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mithras

[The Bard of Banefort]

I recently re-read the Regency chapters in F&B, and with the show in hindsight, I realized that there may well be a parallel between Tyrion and Tyland Lannister. Although Tyland was originally handsome, he was tortured and mutilated by Rhaenyra's men, and became the Hand to Aegon III after the war, despite having spent years fighting Aegon's family. This is similar to show-Tyrion, who was gravely injured during the War of the Five Kings, then became Bran's Hand after their families had gone to war years earlier.

(On a side note though, I found this to be a bit of a plot hole in F&B. We're told that Tyland couldn't remember which side he was on after having been tortured, but we're also told that he suggested having Aegon mutilated after being freed too, so him becoming Hand doesn't make much sense).

6 hours ago, Mithras said:

TL DR: Egg is meant to be a precursor to Dany, including his tragic end.

I saw Egg as more of a precursor to Bran--early years spent on the road, selected by Great Council, choosing to send his relative to the Wall after he committed a murder (Jon killing Dany, Bloodraven killing Aenys).

[Mithras]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I recently re-read the Regency chapters in F&B, and with the show in hindsight, I realized that there may well be a parallel between Tyrion and Tyland Lannister. Although Tyland was originally handsome, he was tortured and mutilated by Rhaenyra's men, and became the Hand to Aegon III after the war, despite having spent years fighting Aegon's family. This is similar to show-Tyrion, who was gravely injured during the War of the Five Kings, then became Bran's Hand after their families had gone to war years earlier.

I always thought Theon will be the new Tyland, not Tyrion. I don't expect Tyrion to survive the series. Especially in a Bran the Broken ending, Theon-Tyland makes much more sense than Tyrion.

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I saw Egg as more of a precursor to Bran--early years spent on the road, selected by Great Council, choosing to send his relative to the Wall after he committed a murder (Jon killing Dany, Bloodraven killing Aenys).

A lot of those things have not happened in the story yet and probably never will. For example, I don't think Jon kills Dany in the books. She will die in childbirth. Even if your scenario is true, that is still a very far-fetched parallel between Bran and Egg. Such parallels can be drawn between anybody. If anything, GRRM intended Aegon III as the more direct parallel to Bran, not the fifth.

Dany-Egg have a lot more direct parallels than Bran such as Viserys-Aerion or the Tragedy of Summerhal. By the way, Bran doesn't even have a proper story in the books yet, let alone the best. GRRM has a lot of homework to do on Bran.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:17 AM, Mithras said:

It does not make sense why Dany does not learn more about her private family history, especially the Summerhall stuff, with a witness like Barristan at her disposal. GRRM clearly wants to save this mystery to the D&E novellas.

What a bummer of an ending to the novellas that would be. "And they all died"

I was thinking that withholding this from the reader could be for character reasons too. Dany being ignorant of her family history fits with her failure to learn from the past, if that is how Martin is writing her. When Barristan mentioned Summerhall she said she grew weary and dismissed him. That could be a pattern of characterization where she doesn't really want to know things in-depth. We don't see Quentyn tell her about Daenerys of Dorne either. If I recall there was an interview where it was implied that Dany never finished those books on Westerosi history that Jorah gave her. 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What a bummer of an ending to the novellas that would be. "And they all died"

I was thinking that withholding this from the reader could be for character reasons too. Dany being ignorant of her family history fits with her failure to learn from the past, if that is how Martin is writing her. When Barristan mentioned Summerhall she said she grew weary and dismissed him. That could be a pattern of characterization where she doesn't really want to know things in-depth. We don't see Quentyn tell her about Daenerys of Dorne either. If I recall there was an interview where it was implied that Dany never finished those books on Westerosi history that Jorah gave her. 

I agree, not only does she fail to learn from her past, but she fails to use resources available to her. As a reader I couldn't believe once she got power she didn't put out a call for dragon lore, old books on dragons or anything and anyone about dragon training.  Nope.  Khaleesi couldn't be bothered with that, she locked them up and simply trades on their emotional attachment to her.  LOL, I remember getting in arguments that since Dany never references those books, she never read them and people went bat***, I don't remember GRRM implying that, but it was certainly my take away that she didn't have the patience to read those histories, and thus, when she comes to Westeros she'll be like a blind woman relying on the kindness of strangers to show her the lay of the land.  Failure is baked into the cake. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

In ADWD, Dany implies that Viserys told her about Summerhall:

Quote

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"

 

15 hours ago, Mithras said:

A lot of those things have not happened in the story yet and probably never will. For example, I don't think Jon kills Dany in the books. She will die in childbirth.

Doesn't that kind of undercut what you were saying about Dany's story ending like Egg's? Her dying in childbirth would be tragic because she's young and a main character, and she wouldn't get to raise her child, but it wouldn't be a violent catastrophe that killed her entire family. Unless you think she'll burn King's Landing and then die in childbirth?

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 12/22/2020 at 4:28 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

In ADWD, Dany implies that Viserys told her about Summerhall:

Do you think he told her why they died, or just that they perished in a fire? I find it interesting that the only character who slams efforts to hatch dragons is Cersei.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I recently re-read the Regency chapters in F&B, and with the show in hindsight, I realized that there may well be a parallel between Tyrion and Tyland Lannister. Although Tyland was originally handsome, he was tortured and mutilated by Rhaenyra's men, and became the Hand to Aegon III after the war, despite having spent years fighting Aegon's family. This is similar to show-Tyrion, who was gravely injured during the War of the Five Kings, then became Bran's Hand after their families had gone to war years earlier.

(On a side note though, I found this to be a bit of a plot hole in F&B. We're told that Tyland couldn't remember which side he was on after having been tortured, but we're also told that he suggested having Aegon mutilated after being freed too, so him becoming Hand doesn't make much sense).

I saw Egg as more of a precursor to Bran--early years spent on the road, selected by Great Council, choosing to send his relative to the Wall after he committed a murder (Jon killing Dany, Bloodraven killing Aenys).

I hate the idea of Tyrion becoming Bran's Hand.

It's one of my top 3 least favorite things about the finale. And if the story beats of Tyrion manipulating Jon into killing Daenerys and then leaving Jon for dead is real, Tyrion becoming Hand after all of that is impossible. Im-pos-si-ble.

And yes, that is a plot hole. It didn't bother me as much because I viewed the Regency Council as being a stern check on anything Tyland Lannister would try to do as Hand.

While I disagreed with almost everything @Mithras had posted above, I must admit that the comparisons between Dany and Aegon V are undeniable and staggering. I've always felt that Dany was an fusion of Visenya and Aegon V so it makes sense. And I must admit that I think:

1. Daenerys will attempt to pull off another Summerhall. Refer to Daenerys VIII from A Game of Thrones (the chapter Dany clashes with Drogo's bloodriders over whether or not blood magic should be used to save Drogo) and Daenerys X from A Game of Thrones (the chapter she subconsciously uses magic to bring dragon back). It's very much in her nature to do what Aegon V did. As a matter of fact, there is a fine line between madness and genius and a lot of the awesome things that Daenerys (and other Targaryens such as Aegon the Conqueror, Baelor the Blessed, Daenys the Dreamer, both King Daerons and Aerea) have done are insane, if not outright impossible. I fully believe her heart will be in the right place. Maybe she'll try to end the Long Night and rectify the wonky seasons with magic. Maybe she attempts to raise more dragons. I don't know but it may backfire. Maybe she angers the Others even further or maybe she accidentally destroys her castle, her city and everyone therein.
2. The Westerosi nobility (including Tyrion) will betray and kill Daenerys Targaryen after all the wars have ended. Like another Red Wedding but backwards. Instead of the host killing the guests, the guests are killing the host. Maybe they do it so that Jon Snow will be king only to find that something awful has happened to Jon Snow or that he doesn't want it. Maybe they do it just because they don't like her only to find that they had her wrong the entire time.

Or maybe both events happen at the same time.

Daenerys invites the lords, knights and priests who were once allies and enemies to a feast or a symposium either after the Others are dealt with or towards the end of their war with the Others. She offers a solution to the problem of the Others and/or the Long Night by way of blood magic, R'hllor-style pyromancy or whatever and tries to pull it off with them in attendance. But they, out of fear, hatred, jealousy or all the above, kill her. Jon Snow is blamed and punished for it (whether he actively participated, mistakenly enabled it or knew nothing about it...it doesn't matter), the issue with the Others or the Long Night that Daenerys could've solved goes unresolved and Bran becomes King, the people's third-choice and only hope. Bran is successful in bringing and keeping peace both with the Others and within humanity but spring never comes and all civilization in Westeros comes to an end--for one reason or another. The lingering question on everyone's minds is "what if Daenerys lived" or "what was Jon Snow thinking" or "did Bran Stark do his best"

Now that's a bittersweet ending.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I hate the idea of Tyrion becoming Bran's Hand.

It's one of my top 3 least favorite things about the finale. And if the story beats of Tyrion manipulating Jon into killing Daenerys and then leaving Jon for dead is real, Tyrion becoming Hand after all of that is impossible. Im-pos-si-ble.

And yes, that is a plot hole. It didn't bother me as much because I viewed the Regency Council as being a stern check on anything Tyland Lannister would try to do as Hand.

While I disagreed with almost everything @Mithras had posted above, I must admit that the comparisons between Dany and Aegon V are undeniable and staggering. I've always felt that Dany was an fusion of Visenya and Aegon V so it makes sense. And I must admit that I think:

1. Daenerys will attempt to pull off another Summerhall. Refer to Daenerys VIII from A Game of Thrones (the chapter Dany clashes with Drogo's bloodriders over whether or not blood magic should be used to save Drogo) and Daenerys X from A Game of Thrones (the chapter she subconsciously uses magic to bring dragon back). It's very much in her nature to do what Aegon V did. As a matter of fact, there is a fine line between madness and genius and a lot of the awesome things that Daenerys (and other Targaryens such as Aegon the Conqueror, Baelor the Blessed, Daenys the Dreamer, both King Daerons and Aerea) have done are insane, if not outright impossible. I fully believe her heart will be in the right place. Maybe she'll try to end the Long Night and rectify the wonky seasons with magic. Maybe she attempts to raise more dragons. I don't know but it may backfire. Maybe she angers the Others even further or maybe she accidentally destroys her castle, her city and everyone therein.
2. The Westerosi nobility (including Tyrion) will betray and kill Daenerys Targaryen after all the wars have ended. Like another Red Wedding but backwards. Instead of the host killing the guests, the guests are killing the host. Maybe they do it so that Jon Snow will be king only to find that something awful has happened to Jon Snow or that he doesn't want it. Maybe they do it just because they don't like her only to find that they had her wrong the entire time.

Or maybe both events happen at the same time.

Daenerys invites the lords, knights and priests who were once allies and enemies to a feast or a symposium either after the Others are dealt with or towards the end of their war with the Others. She offers a solution to the problem of the Others and/or the Long Night by way of blood magic, R'hllor-style pyromancy or whatever and tries to pull it off with them in attendance. But they, out of fear, hatred, jealousy or all the above, kill her. Jon Snow is blamed and punished for it (whether he actively participated, mistakenly enabled it or knew nothing about it...it doesn't matter), the issue with the Others or the Long Night that Daenerys could've solved goes unresolved and Bran becomes King, the people's third-choice and only hope. Bran is successful in bringing and keeping peace both with the Others and within humanity but spring never comes and all civilization in Westeros comes to an end--for one reason or another. The lingering question on everyone's minds is "what if Daenerys lived" or "what was Jon Snow thinking" or "did Bran Stark do his best"

Now that's a bittersweet ending.

I'd have thought a real possibility is that she tries to implement Egg's reforms only to generate a shit-storm among the nobility.

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I hate the idea of Tyrion becoming Bran's Hand. It's one of my top 3 least favorite things about the finale. And if the story beats of Tyrion manipulating Jon into killing Daenerys and then leaving Jon for dead is real, Tyrion becoming Hand after all of that is impossible. Im-pos-si-ble.

Tyrion and Jon thought she would be able to reign it in. Tyrion had to convince Jon, who was more blind than anyone else in the story. Tyrion couldn't kill her because he threw his Hand pin on the ground and freed Jaime. Dany would only trust Jon to get close.

Tyrion as Hand - I hate it too, but I'm not going to say it's impossible. A lot of stuff I vehemently dislike has happened in the books so far.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'd have thought a real possibility is that she tries to implement Egg's reforms only to generate a shit-storm among the nobility.

Yep.

This is GRRM's tax policy for Aragorn. Daenerys is the one who comes up with the plan but Bran and his sisters are the muscle. Daenerys dies making Egg's dreams (along her hers) a reality and Bran is there to execute and enforce it after.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion and Jon thought she would be able to reign it in. Tyrion had to convince Jon, who was more blind than anyone else in the story. Tyrion couldn't kill her because he threw his Hand pin on the ground and freed Jaime. Dany would only trust Jon to get close.

Tyrion as Hand - I hate it too, but I'm not going to say it's impossible. A lot of stuff I vehemently dislike has happened in the books so far.

Murdering Daenerys was a terrible betrayal and it was ultimately unnecessary.

If Tyrion becomes Hand at the end of the story despite everything he has done, I'll throw the book away. However, if GRRM holds fast and Tyrion is never whitewashed or retconned, then I'll probably fish the book out of the trash can once I calm down.

If Tyrion gets whitewashed, the book is being burnt. Sorry not sorry.

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Murdering Daenerys was a terrible betrayal and it was ultimately unnecessary.

If Tyrion becomes Hand at the end of the story despite everything he has done, I'll throw the book away. However, if GRRM holds fast and Tyrion is never whitewashed or retconned, then I'll probably fish the book out of the trash can once I calm down.

If Tyrion gets whitewashed, the book is being burnt. Sorry not sorry.

Well, you feel what you feel. If you feel that way about Daenerys, that's a good sign that something hit right, because I know we're supposed to feel *something* when a main character dies. In the show, I was glad that she was dead and laughed when Jon stabbed her. No way was that right! haha

 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well, you feel what you feel. If you feel that way about Daenerys, that's a good sign that something hit right, because I know we're supposed to feel *something* when a main character dies. In the show, I was glad that she was dead and laughed when Jon stabbed her. No way was that right! haha

LMFAO

 

[Ghostlydragon]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Murdering Daenerys was a terrible betrayal and it was ultimately unnecessary.

If Tyrion becomes Hand at the end of the story despite everything he has done, I'll throw the book away. However, if GRRM holds fast and Tyrion is never whitewashed or retconned, then I'll probably fish the book out of the trash can once I calm down.

If Tyrion gets whitewashed, the book is being burnt. Sorry not sorry.

Agreed. Even if Tyrion is able to get back to his old self, I can't see him being able to forgive the public and nobles for how he was treated in book 3. I'm sure he will be all for mass murder and allowing the kind of sack Tywin allowed.

And why would he want to be a hand. I think he will want all the power he can get and anyone who stands in his way is gonna suffer. 

[BlackLightning]

17 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

And why would he want to be a hand. I think he will want all the power he can get and anyone who stands in his way is gonna suffer. 

That's the issue.

Tyrion reassuming power as Hand with both a massive inferiority complex and a thirst for revenge is bad news.

It means the villains will have won.

 

If Tyrion also receives that level of power again, there's no reason to think that he would just let Sansa go free. There's also no reason why the power-grabbing and the scheming would end. He was out of control in Clash (and, as a refresher, a willful enemy of both the Starks, the Baratheons and the Targaryens) and that was back when he was better person.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Quote

"Nonsense," said Lannister. "With the right horse and the right saddle, even a cripple can ride."

The word was a knife through Bran's heart. He felt tears come unbidden to his eyes. "I'm not a cripple!" - Bran IV, AGOT

 

Quote

"No jest. I mean to kill her." If she can be killed by mortal weapons. Davos was not certain that she could. He had seen old Maester Cressen slip poison into her wine, with his own eyes he had seen it, but when they both drank from the poisoned cup it was the maester who died, not the red priestess. A knife in the heart, though . . . even demons can be killed by cold iron, the singers say." - Davos II, ASOS

 

Quote

"The Hound had been dying when she left him on the banks of the Trident, burning up with fever from his wound. I should have given him the gift of mercy and put a knife into his heart." - Arya I, AFFC

 

Quote

"Nine. The word was a dagger in her heart."  - Daenerys II, ADWD

I tried searching for heart-stabbing or dagger stabbing imagery and found these passages. It looks like Dany and Bran are the only ones who have it referenced in the first person. Maybe Hodor is stabbed by an Other, with Bran warging him? 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Rose of Red Lake

[BlackLightning]

On 1/24/2021 at 11:51 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I tried searching for heart-stabbing or dagger stabbing imagery and found these passages. It looks like Dany and Bran are the only ones who have it referenced in the first person. Maybe Hodor is stabbed by an Other, with Bran warging him? 

Maybe.

There is also the infamous dream Dany has. She is having sex with a dead/frostbitten man in which his erect penis feels like a cold steel dagger. In my opinion, this is a dragon dream and that the man in her dream is Jon Snow.

So...idk. But whatever.

There's no way anyone will let Tyrion cannot become Hand of the King. Although he (falsely) committed to killing the king he fought for and protected, Tyrion's greatest sin/error is killing his own father while he was on the toilet in his own home.

Kinslaying and guest right seem to be major taboos and people who commit such sins are cursed in life and after death. Having everyone ignore this (after over a decade of Jaime being dragged through filth for killing King Aerys II and Brienne being forced into running for her life because she is a suspect in King Renly's death) is a massive plot-hole.

[Lord of Blackhaven]

Sometimes things that look good on paper are absolute shit in reality. Hopefully Martin noted the flaws in the end of the show and rewrites accordingly.

King Bran may have sounded good in his head, but in my mind there is just no way it works. None. Its illogical and makes no sense (for more reasons than I care to go into here). If he follows through with it just to have an "oh shit" moment than I will lose all respect for him as an author. He'll be little better than M. Night Shyamalan. Inserting shocking plot twists into the story simply for the sake of having a shocking plot twist.

The notorious surprise of Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding worked because they weren't just gut wrenching jolts inserted for maximum shock value - they made narrative sense and served the plot. They were believable in the context of the world of Westeros. They weren't shoehorned in just for the hell of it.

Please be rewriting George, please.