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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot


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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

First off, they chose a bad spot to land; they came ashore in hostile territory where it would be harder to muster support and where their big naval opposition already was.

Would have been safer to start out in friendly territory like Dorne or at Oldtown since Euron was already on the other side of Westeros (King's Landing); Olenna could raise her banners from Oldtown. Oh, and symbolism since Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown; since Daenerys is projecting the image of being Aegon come again (minus two dragon riders), that should enhance her mystique. Maybe meld in a plot with Sam since he's there, he could inform them of White Walkers (theoretically). Move eastward to Highgarden and Dorne

If they start at Sunspear, Daenerys and Ellaria can promise revenge on the Lannisters. They march to Highgarden, Olenna raises banners; remember her family was a naval power and Mace's wife was a Hightower.

Phase 3: March up to Riverlands and bread and circuses; show Daenerys' benevolence, promote stability and justice, punish the wicked, cut Cersei off from the Westerlands, don't engage Euron's fleet , yada, yada, yada. Of course I don't know how Daenerys should tackle the Vale and the North.

Urgh. Hostile territory. Often caused by following Tyrion's advice. Obv landing at Dragonstone was Dany's idea but the decision to attack Casterly Rock, the decision to have a small ship go from Dragonstone back to Dorne, and then to Kings Landing really made no sense. Much like flying/sailing back to Dragonstone in S8 made no sense since everyone else marched up the Kingsroad.

 

Agreed on Oldtown. Oldtown makes perfect sense since Dany could be crowned as the rightful monarch there and she could send ravens from there to make her intention clear, much like Stannis' ravens in S2. Then any forces could go by land eliminating any chance of an attack at sea, and Euron would give up immediately when it was clear Cersei has no power.

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2 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Urgh. Hostile territory. Often caused by following Tyrion's advice. Obv landing at Dragonstone was Dany's idea but the decision to attack Casterly Rock, the decision to have a small ship go from Dragonstone back to Dorne, and then to Kings Landing really made no sense. Much like flying/sailing back to Dragonstone in S8 made no sense since everyone else marched up the Kingsroad.

 

Agreed on Oldtown. Oldtown makes perfect sense since Dany could be crowned as the rightful monarch there and she could send ravens from there to make her intention clear, much like Stannis' ravens in S2. Then any forces could go by land eliminating any chance of an attack at sea, and Euron would give up immediately when it was clear Cersei has no power.

I do remember a video covering the former...

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30 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Urgh. Hostile territory. Often caused by following Tyrion's advice. Obv landing at Dragonstone was Dany's idea but the decision to attack Casterly Rock, the decision to have a small ship go from Dragonstone back to Dorne, and then to Kings Landing really made no sense. Much like flying/sailing back to Dragonstone in S8 made no sense since everyone else marched up the Kingsroad.

 

Agreed on Oldtown. Oldtown makes perfect sense since Dany could be crowned as the rightful monarch there and she could send ravens from there to make her intention clear, much like Stannis' ravens in S2. Then any forces could go by land eliminating any chance of an attack at sea, and Euron would give up immediately when it was clear Cersei has no power.

All thls geostrategy talk has its place of course - however the main problem with all 3 of those decisions isn't "stupid strategy", it's collective dementia: the fact that they all forget about Euron and don't even consider his existence while making those plans;

and his ability to just appear without warning, which I doubt is "realistic" either.

 

So people circlejerk about Daenerys "kinda forgetting" in s8, and they circlejerk about "Tyrion's bad advice" in s7 - in truth, both Tyrion&Daenerys and *all* their allies and associates, that entire whole team, show the same collective dementia about Euron in both 7&8, while he manages to ambush them in unrealistic stream of consciousness ways. That's what happens there.

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8 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

All thls geostrategy talk has its place of course - however the main problem with all 3 of those decisions isn't "stupid strategy", it's collective dementia: the fact that they all forget about Euron and don't even consider his existence while making those plans;

and his ability to just appear without warning, which I doubt is "realistic" either.

 

So people circlejerk about Daenerys "kinda forgetting" in s8, and they circlejerk about "Tyrion's bad advice" in s7 - in truth, both Tyrion&Daenerys and *all* their allies and associates, that entire whole team, show the same collective dementia about Euron in both 7&8, while he manages to ambush them in unrealistic stream of consciousness ways. That's what happens there.

It's funny; in the strategy session in S8E4, they mention Euron's fleet at least a couple times and it's shown how elusive it is, yet it's Tyrion's idea to split up Daenerys' army unnecessarily and expose themselves to being attacked by Euron's fleet with no ability to counterattack.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It's funny; in the strategy session in S8E4, they mention Euron's fleet at least a couple times and it's shown how elusive it is, yet it's Tyrion's idea to split up Daenerys' army unnecessarily and expose themselves to being attacked by Euron's fleet with no ability to counterattack.

Hm ok I need to go rewatch those scenes then - the above were the conclusions I reached 1-2 years ago, maybe the lizards changed it while I was distracted...

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1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Urgh. Hostile territory. Often caused by following Tyrion's advice. Obv landing at Dragonstone was Dany's idea but the decision to attack Casterly Rock, the decision to have a small ship go from Dragonstone back to Dorne, and then to Kings Landing really made no sense. Much like flying/sailing back to Dragonstone in S8 made no sense since everyone else marched up the Kingsroad.

 

Agreed on Oldtown. Oldtown makes perfect sense since Dany could be crowned as the rightful monarch there and she could send ravens from there to make her intention clear, much like Stannis' ravens in S2. Then any forces could go by land eliminating any chance of an attack at sea, and Euron would give up immediately when it was clear Cersei has no power.

Baldrick's  other cunning plans included marching the Unsullied across half a continent to attack Casterly Rock, while leaving Highgarden vulnerable;  the wight hunt, and then proposing leaving them all to die North of the Wall;  the parley with Cersei, and then telling Dany and Jon that Cersei can be trusted;  splitting up Dany's army, and proposing starving the city's inhabitants into submission.  He kind of forgot about the secret passages in and out of the city, through which soldiers could have been infiltrated. 

Oh, and bells mean surrender, despite it being established that "I've never known bells to mean surrender."  

The is very, very sloppy writing.

Edited by SeanF
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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Baldrick's  other cunning plans included marching the Unsullied across half a continent to attack Casterly Rock, while leaving Highgarden vulnerable;  the wight hunt, and then proposing leaving them all to die North of the Wall;  the parley with Cersei, and then telling Dany and Jon that Cersei can be trusted;  splitting up Dany's army, and proposing starving the city's inhabitants into submission.  He kind of forgot about the secret passages in and out of the city, through which soldiers could have been infiltrated. 

Oh, and bells mean surrender, despite it being established that "I've never known bells to mean surrender."  

The is very, very sloppy writing.

I thought the fleet ferried the Unsullied to Casterly Rock and Euron, again making use of his teleporting fleet took out the fleet, forcing the Unsullied to march across the continent back to the capital (and one of the lesser applications of traveling at the speed of plot).

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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought the fleet ferried the Unsullied to Casterly Rock and Euron, again making use of his teleporting fleet took out the fleet, forcing the Unsullied to march across the continent back to the capital (and one of the lesser applications of traveling at the speed of plot).

I don't know why they didn't just transport them by dragon.  It would have made as much sense as anything else by that point.

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35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't know why they didn't just transport them by dragon.  It would have made as much sense as anything else by that point.

My guess (which I think is pretty accurate judging by what we've seen) is that Drogon's carrying ability is limited; he can only carry so much. In Beyond the Wall, Drogon retreats to the Wall with Daenerys, Tormund, Beric, The Hound, Jorah, and the captured wight. Similarly in The Long Night, Drogon is temporarily downed when a bunch of wights swarm him and he is forced to fly up into the air to shake them off.

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23 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Hm ok I need to go rewatch those scenes then - the above were the conclusions I reached 1-2 years ago, maybe the lizards changed it while I was distracted...

Let's run this down in the strategy session in Episode 4:

  1. Stock is taken of remaining forces; half are gone (which means the other half of the Dothraki dicked around for the rest of the episode), Daenerys' forces and Cersei's forces are roughly equal, Cersei has Iron Fleet and Golden Company
  2. How to proceed?
    1. Missandei: Spread word of the Long Night and the victory over the Army of the Dead; smallfolk will take Daenerys' side when word is known what was done for them.
      1. Daenerys: counters by saying that Cersei will make sure nothing is believed
    2. Varys: reports that support is growing for Daenerys: Yara has retaken the Iron Islands, the Prince of Dorne has declared for Daenerys. Time is on Daenerys' side.
    3. Jon and Tyrion: Propose besieging/blockading King's Landing
      1. Daenerys: Agrees
    4. Sansa: Wants to delay to allow Northern troops to recuperate
      1. Daenerys: Wants to attack now so Cersei can't muster up more support
    5. Jon: sides with Daenerys, breaking stalemate
    6. Tyrion: Attempts to recap things, says that some of the Unsullied and the Dragons will go to Dragonstone by sea, everyone else (Jon, Davos, Northern soldiers, Knights of the Vale, Dothraki, rest of Unsullied) will march by land down the Kingsroad to King's Landing. ... now where was that laid out as part of the strategy?
  3. To summarize: it's Tyrion's idea that is the direct catalyst for Daenerys' madness.
Edited by Angel Eyes
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Ok here is a general thing I've been wondering. Could it be that at the end of the books there will be a North that is it's own kingdom hence you have someone ruling there and another person ruling the rest of Westeros? I'm not talking about how the show did it because that made no sense. But this ties into the magic of the story which D&D weren't interested in.

I've been thinking about the WW and the Children and magic. What if the North (and bit parts of other Kingdoms) literally separates from the rest of Westeros? By that I mean the landmass gets split so it's no longer physically connected to Westeros. I'm alluding here to a 'Hammer of the Waters 2.0' kind of deal. We have several hints in the books that the WW will make it to the Trident, possibly down to the Neck.

We also know that Howland Reed spend months on the Isle of Faces. It's also assumed that the reason for the Neck being marsh land is because the HotW was attempted there again and failed. So what if the Others come down to the Neck but this time the spell succeeds, performed by Howland (or maybe even Bran or with the help of Bran)? And as a result it literally splits the landmass east to west, leaving an ocean/sea between Westeros and the landmass that split off (anything above the Neck).

I don't see any other way for the conquest of the WW to end there (as it's been alluded to) because I don't see a giant Westerosi army facing them. All the Kingdoms are kind of preoccupied with their own petty little games and wars. It's also probably not going to be solved politically, unless someone becomes fluent in 'Other'.

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21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Let's run this down in the strategy session in Episode 4:

  1. Stock is taken of remaining forces; half are gone (which means the other half of the Dothraki dicked around for the rest of the episode), Daenerys' forces and Cersei's forces are roughly equal, Cersei has Iron Fleet and Golden Company
  2. How to proceed?
    1. Missandei: Spread word of the Long Night and the victory over the Army of the Dead; smallfolk will take Daenerys' side when word is known what was done for them.
      1. Daenerys: counters by saying that Cersei will make sure nothing is believed
    2. Varys: reports that support is growing for Daenerys: Yara has retaken the Iron Islands, the Prince of Dorne has declared for Daenerys. Time is on Daenerys' side.
    3. Jon and Tyrion: Propose besieging/blockading King's Landing
      1. Daenerys: Agrees
    4. Sansa: Wants to delay to allow Northern troops to recuperate
      1. Daenerys: Wants to attack now so Cersei can't muster up more support
    5. Jon: sides with Daenerys, breaking stalemate
    6. Tyrion: Attempts to recap things, says that some of the Unsullied and the Dragons will go to Dragonstone by sea, everyone else (Jon, Davos, Northern soldiers, Knights of the Vale, Dothraki, rest of Unsullied) will march by land down the Kingsroad to King's Landing. ... now where was that laid out as part of the strategy?
  3. To summarize: it's Tyrion's idea that is the direct catalyst for Daenerys' madness.

Yeah I need to go through all that stuff again, got rusty.

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On 7/28/2021 at 1:20 PM, Mystical said:

Ok here is a general thing I've been wondering. Could it be that at the end of the books there will be a North that is it's own kingdom hence you have someone ruling there and another person ruling the rest of Westeros? I'm not talking about how the show did it because that made no sense. But this ties into the magic of the story which D&D weren't interested in.

I've been thinking about the WW and the Children and magic. What if the North (and bit parts of other Kingdoms) literally separates from the rest of Westeros? By that I mean the landmass gets split so it's no longer physically connected to Westeros. I'm alluding here to a 'Hammer of the Waters 2.0' kind of deal. We have several hints in the books that the WW will make it to the Trident, possibly down to the Neck.

We also know that Howland Reed spend months on the Isle of Faces. It's also assumed that the reason for the Neck being marsh land is because the HotW was attempted there again and failed. So what if the Others come down to the Neck but this time the spell succeeds, performed by Howland (or maybe even Bran or with the help of Bran)? And as a result it literally splits the landmass east to west, leaving an ocean/sea between Westeros and the landmass that split off (anything above the Neck).

I don't see any other way for the conquest of the WW to end there (as it's been alluded to) because I don't see a giant Westerosi army facing them. All the Kingdoms are kind of preoccupied with their own petty little games and wars. It's also probably not going to be solved politically, unless someone becomes fluent in 'Other'.

First of all, the Neck is north of the Trident. So, if the Others make it to the Trident, they'll make it to the Neck.

Second of all, the likelihood that someone will be fluent 'Other' is fairly high. The Last Hero coordinated something of a peace with the Others and the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch married an Other and became the Night King...obviously, there was some communication to be had between humans and Others. If anyone is to be the one to broker a lasting peace with the Others via diplomacy, it'll be Bran....which will serve as yet another reason why people will support his kingship.

Third of all, with the way that GRRM has been building up the threat of the Others, there is no way that the Others only become a threat to those in the North. It's bad writing for the Others to pose no real threat to those south of the Neck.

If the Wall falls or melts or whatever, I can see massive earthquakes and floods resulting. Maybe the North breaks off, maybe not. But I doubt it: the Neck is not that narrow or fragile of a land. Plus, there are underground tunnels and caverns that stretch from the lands beyond the Wall to the Stormlands.

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Interesting ideas.

If the marshy Neck we’re frozen, the territory might not do well, and the South is open. It would be interesting if Howland had Druid type powers that could unfreeze it.

Coldhands might speak Other, or Bran may have it in his memories. The Children?

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/31/2019 at 10:42 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

To the bolded, sure why not? They have lied about many things.

And like many have said, the story is constantly in flux, from the 1993 outline to now it has changed immensely. GRRM has stated that he gave them bullet points 6 years ago, maybe Bran was king in those bullet points and maybe he wasn't. Alls I know is that he only has 2 books and Dany is still in Meereen and Bran is still in a cave NotW. Nothing is set in stone until he publishes. 

Why do I think the show made Bran King? because they're idiots--same reason they made Arya kill the King White Walker--shock and a BIG STUPID TWIST that doesn't fit with the plot.

Suck an egg, Danys not going to be Queen, she’ll go mad and will die a tragic death. Bran will King of Westeros. 

Edited by Raven’sEye
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On 2/4/2021 at 3:30 PM, BlackLightning said:

Back to Dany, what REALLY matters is how or why? Are these people innocent civilians or are they combatants or are they civilian combatants (aka insurgents)? Were they given at least once chance to surrender? Did she do it on accident? Were the deaths collateral damage in her fight against someone like Euron or Cersei or was it collateral damage in her fight against someone like fAegon or Jon Snow? Did she do it out of spite? Does she become psychotic and then kills half a million people? Did it happen because she was trying to do blood magic?

I dont know but in the show she was corrupted by power and didn't care about those people. Sapochnik said something that made sense to explain it - "She feels empty, it wasn't what she thought it was, it's not enough." And yes, Dany is never satisfied in the books, "That should be enough for any woman . . . but not for the dragon." She also decided to go to war simply because she didn't like Meerenese food, clothing, or housing, which is nothing really (she doesn't mention slavery at all as a reason to choose "fire and blood"). So in the show it's probably that she didn't want a bloodless victory, she wanted to inflict pain and make people pay, just like she did on the Plaza of Punishment and with the wineseller's daughters in the books. Because teaching people the dragon's power feels good to her. And if "it wasn't what she thought it was," then she had decided Westeros wasn't home. They weren't "her" people or even innocents, it was just another place to smash, just like the Dothraki did in Essos. I dont know, it just lines up for me more so than accidents or blood magic.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake
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  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't read all of these replies, but here's my thoughts on the idea of Bran becoming king:

I simply can't see it happening. It wouldn't feel right, or feel in-line with everything Martin has written about him for 25 years. From the very first book, and increasingly so with each passing one, the books have hinted that Bran's destiny is something far more unusual and other-wordly than sitting on a throne and running a kingdom. Like, I'd go so far as to say that it would feel more fitting for Bran to "transcend" into some kind of god or spirit. Any fool can be a king - the series has shown that repeatedly. But only Bran can do what he's doing. It would be one of the biggest cop-outs in fantasy history if Bran just ends up being a mere king. It just wouldn't feel right. He's meant to do something far greater and more distinctive. I just know it.

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I thought for years that Bran would end up as king and it was, ironically, the show that convinced me otherwise. Once they turned Bran into an emotionless cyborg, I figured that he couldn’t be king because he couldn’t interact with people any longer. Now I don’t know if the joke’s on me or them.

I had two big reasons for why I thought Bran would be king: first off, the story started with him, and writers love their poetry, so it would make sense that the story would end with him too. Second is his ACOK plot. Little 8-year-old Bran is running Winterfell with the wisdom of an  adult, and Maester Luwin’s dying words are to tell him that he is his father’s true son. He also has a huge capacity for forgiveness—we see him try to reach out to Theon in ADWD, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he uses his magic in some way to save Jaime from Stoneheart.

This is what I think will be the big difference between book and show Bran: in addition to his powers, which will likely awe many of the Westerosi nobles, his wisdom—gleaned from both time travel and his own temperament—will be what makes him a capable ruler, not the “good story” bullshit that the show went with. I think that he’ll play a much bigger role in defeating the Others than in the show, and will be chosen as king via a Great Council. 

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On 9/30/2021 at 1:40 PM, WhatAnArtist! said:

I haven't read all of these replies, but here's my thoughts on the idea of Bran becoming king:

I simply can't see it happening. It wouldn't feel right, or feel in-line with everything Martin has written about him for 25 years. From the very first book, and increasingly so with each passing one, the books have hinted that Bran's destiny is something far more unusual and other-wordly than sitting on a throne and running a kingdom. Like, I'd go so far as to say that it would feel more fitting for Bran to "transcend" into some kind of god or spirit. Any fool can be a king - the series has shown that repeatedly. But only Bran can do what he's doing. It would be one of the biggest cop-outs in fantasy history if Bran just ends up being a mere king. It just wouldn't feel right. He's meant to do something far greater and more distinctive. I just know it.

I agree with you , Bran seems to be destined to do more than being just another king . though the show runners said that "king Bran" came from Martin himself and as @The Bard of Banefort says Bran has proved himself more or less capable of ruling . still I don't think he'll sit the Iron Throne or any Westerosi throne for that matter . I think he'll be some sort of peacemaker king . someone who brings back children of the forest perhaps and brings magic back . he might even make some sort of peace with the others after realizing what they want and who/what they are.  he'll be someone in my opinion who guides kings/queens of westeros the way bloodraven wasn't able to do . maybe that would be the way he becomes the(green) king :) ... who knows?! but I don't buy it for a second that he becomes king of westeros by choice of a great council of nobles... they wouldn't look twice at Bran stark the cripple magical old-gods worshipper skinchanger weirdo boy who was beyond the wall all this time. not when Jon, Sansa and even Rickon ( who will be back in the story in winds and is capable of producing heirs in the future ) are his rivals as head of house stark .

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