Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[WhatAnArtist!]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m also curious about where Brienne is heading. She didn’t do much the last three seasons. This could mean a lot of things: her book plot was cut, she dies in TWOW, she pulls a Theon and disappears for a while, etc.

I think her story will conclude with whatever happens with Stoneheart and the Brotherhood in tWoW. If I had to guess, and I was being optimistic, she'll kill Stoneheart in an attempt to save Jaime at the last minute, and possibly die while doing so. It would be a sad but satisfying end to her character-arc and relationship with Jaime. Worst case scenario, she was really hanged by Stoneheart at the end of Feast and is another resurrected... thing, doing the vengeful bidding of Stoneheart. I really hope that isn't the case, since I love Brienne and don't want her to have such a horrible fate. It would be a final gut punch after her already depressing storyline of Feast.

I don't want Brienne to kill Stannis like the show. That wasn't satisfying in the slightest from either a character or thematic perspective. No one cares about Brienne's desire for """"justice"""" for her murdered husbandfu Renly, a traitor and fool. Brienne's character arc will be completed with Jaime and Catelyn/Stoneheart, not Stannis. Plus, I feel like Brienne's worldview and attitude changed a lot from ACoK to AFfC - in the former, she's entirely obsessed with serving and worshipping Renly, a spoiled, arrogant brat with a huge ego, but by the end of Feast she seems to have realised that the true path of honour wasn't serving a (false) king, but defending the common folk, a far more respectable goal.

[BlackLightning]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:53 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I thought for years that Bran would end up as king and it was, ironically, the show that convinced me otherwise. Once they turned Bran into an emotionless cyborg, I figured that he couldn’t be king because he couldn’t interact with people any longer. Now I don’t know if the joke’s on me or them.

I had two big reasons for why I thought Bran would be king: first off, the story started with him, and writers love their poetry, so it would make sense that the story would end with him too. Second is his ACOK plot. Little 8-year-old Bran is running Winterfell with the wisdom of an  adult, and Maester Luwin’s dying words are to tell him that he is his father’s true son. He also has a huge capacity for forgiveness—we see him try to reach out to Theon in ADWD, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he uses his magic in some way to save Jaime from Stoneheart.

This is what I think will be the big difference between book and show Bran: in addition to his powers, which will likely awe many of the Westerosi nobles, his wisdom—gleaned from both time travel and his own temperament—will be what makes him a capable ruler, not the “good story” bullshit that the show went with. I think that he’ll play a much bigger role in defeating the Others than in the show, and will be chosen as king via a Great Council. 

Don't forget about Bran's personality.

Everyone loves him. Such a sweetheart.

On 10/2/2021 at 1:50 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think her story will conclude with whatever happens with Stoneheart and the Brotherhood in tWoW. If I had to guess, and I was being optimistic, she'll kill Stoneheart in an attempt to save Jaime at the last minute, and possibly die while doing so. It would be a sad but satisfying end to her character-arc and relationship with Jaime. Worst case scenario, she was really hanged by Stoneheart at the end of Feast and is another resurrected... thing, doing the vengeful bidding of Stoneheart. I really hope that isn't the case, since I love Brienne and don't want her to have such a horrible fate. It would be a final gut punch after her already depressing storyline of Feast.

I don't want Brienne to kill Stannis like the show. That wasn't satisfying in the slightest from either a character or thematic perspective. No one cares about Brienne's desire for """"justice"""" for her murdered husbandfu Renly, a traitor and fool. Brienne's character arc will be completed with Jaime and Catelyn/Stoneheart, not Stannis. Plus, I feel like Brienne's worldview and attitude changed a lot from ACoK to AFfC - in the former, she's entirely obsessed with serving and worshipping Renly, a spoiled, arrogant brat with a huge ego, but by the end of Feast she seems to have realised that the true path of honour wasn't serving a (false) king, but defending the common folk, a far more respectable goal.

I don't see Lady Stoneheart dying until after she learns that all of her other children are alive and (relatively) well. Which of course would mean that she would have to reunite with some of them.

Which, for me, puts it so that Lady Stoneheart makes all the way until about halfway into A Dream of Spring.

[Darryk]

I have a hunch Jaime will die far earlier in the books, and that they significantly expanded his role in the series because everyone liked Nikolaj so much.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Since they omitted the valonqar from the show, I’m thinking whoever it is probably relates to one of the many cut characters/plots. Aegon is technically a younger brother, but I have a hard time seeing him murder Cersei by such personal means as strangulation. Euron and Victarion are both younger brothers, and they’ve both killed a wife or lover. Then again, maybe Arya’s the valonqar but they thought having her kill both Cersei and the Night King was too much. She is referred to as “the little sister” a few times in the books.

Speaking of the Night King, does anyone have any idea how the Others will be defeated in the books? I’m guessing it will be at WF, but I don’t think the show shed any light on how.

[SeanF]

On 1/31/2022 at 9:04 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Since they omitted the valonqar from the show, I’m thinking whoever it is probably relates to one of the many cut characters/plots. Aegon is technically a younger brother, but I have a hard time seeing him murder Cersei by such personal means as strangulation. Euron and Victarion are both younger brothers, and they’ve both killed a wife or lover. Then again, maybe Arya’s the valonqar but they thought having her kill both Cersei and the Night King was too much. She is referred to as “the little sister” a few times in the books.

Speaking of the Night King, does anyone have any idea how the Others will be defeated in the books? I’m guessing it will be at WF, but I don’t think the show shed any light on how.

I think the Others will reach the Trident, based on Dany’s dream at Astapor.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think the Others will reach the Trident, based on Dany’s dream at Astapor.

Maybe. Assuming they need magic to defeat the Others, that could still happen at Winterfell.

[Lady Anna]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:40 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe. Assuming they need magic to defeat the Others, that could still happen at Winterfell.

Yeah. I think Winterfell is a good bet, also because I belive the Others, the Starks, the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods are all connected somehow. Though both things can happen: the Others can still make it all the way to the Trident but the final showdown - or resolution - happening at Winterfell. Definitely with magic of some kind.

[Lady Anna]

I believe that Bran being King of Westeros (what's left of it) will also happen in the books and to me it's a simple case of him being Jon's next male heir.

If Dany dies or doesn't become queen (which is highly possible), and if Jon is accepted or acclaimed as the legitimate ruler of Westeros, then if he dies or abdicates Bran is his next male relative and therefore heir.

Speaking of Jon, I also think his chances of being acclaimed king over Dany are high, because like we saw on the show, Dany won't be popular in Westeros, a continent already devastated by war and with no fond memories of the Targaryens, besides being a woman, born of incest, with a weapon (the dragons) that does a lot of damage, and who probably will destroy Kings Landing so will be left without an actual kingdom to rule from (I'm considering that the north, Riverlands and Vale are allied; the Reach fighting maybe against the Greyjoys; the westerlands, the Stormlands and Dorne as enemies).

Meanwhile Jon, if king in the north or ruler, will have the entire North + Vale + Riverlands at his side, plus being a man, who already proved himself as a man of the Night's Watch, and with an extra Targaryen heritage to give him the legitimacy it gave Robert. In any case, if the Targaryens hadn't been deposed, he would have been the heir now.

So yeah I think this Jon-Dany conflict may happen in some capacity and I think it would make sense to happen after the War with the Others.

Edit: Not to mention the influence of any magical things that may happen in the meantime.

I am definitely one of those people who think that season 8 at least had a lot of George's ideias in it.  And I don't mind it actually.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Lady Anna

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:11 PM, Lady Anna said:

I believe that Bran being King of Westeros (what's left of it) will also happen in the books and to me it's a simple case of him being Jon's next male heir.

If Dany dies or doesn't become queen (which is highly possible), and if Jon is accepted or acclaimed as the legitimate ruler of Westeros, then if he dies or abdicates Bran is his next male relative and therefore heir.

Speaking of Jon, I also think his chances of being acclaimed king over Dany are high, because like we saw on the show, Dany won't be popular in Westeros, a continent already devastated by war and with no fond memories of the Targaryens, besides being a woman, born of incest, with a weapon (the dragons) that does a lot of damage, and who probably will destroy Kings Landing so will be left without an actual kingdom to rule from (I'm considering that the north, Riverlands and Vale are allied; the Reach fighting maybe against the Greyjoys; the westerlands, the Stormlands and Dorne as enemies).

Meanwhile Jon, if king in the north or ruler, will have the entire North + Vale + Riverlands at his side, plus being a man, who already proved himself as a man of the Night's Watch, and with an extra Targaryen heritage to give him the legitimacy it gave Robert. In any case, if the Targaryens hadn't been deposed, he would have been the heir now.

So yeah I think this Jon-Dany conflict may happen in some capacity and I think it would make sense to happen after the War with the Others.

Edit: Not to mention the influence of any magical things that may happen in the meantime.

I am definitely one of those people who think that season 8 at least had a lot of George's ideias in it.  And I don't mind it actually.

I also think that a lot of George’s ideas were in season eight, and I don’t mind them either. I’ve said for a while now that if there’s one thing that Dany fans should take comfort in, it’s that George is remarkably good at covering plot holes for a series this complex. If Dany becomes a villain, I trust it will happen in a way that is logical for the character.

My current theory regarding that awful season seven plot in Winterfell is that rather than trying to kill Arya, Littlefinger will try to take out Bran, which will be what finally turns Sansa against him. If Bran is to be king, then he needs to rule as a lord first in order to prove himself to the other lords. Even if George had kept the five year gap, Bran would still be too young to rule on his own, so Sansa could be his regent. In the show, Sansa offered the lordship to Bran when he first returned home—maybe her supporters will encourage her to push her claim over Bran’s, but she refuses (possibly even specifically to prevent LF’s plans from coming to fruition). If Jon is off fighting wars, then it would make sense for Sansa and Bran to be left behind to take care of Winterfell. The only thing is, George would have to find a way to make the timeline stretch long enough for Sansa to be at least sixteen by the time her and Bran return to Winterfell.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I also think that a lot of George’s ideas were in season eight, and I don’t mind them either. I’ve said for a while now that if there’s one thing that Dany fans should take comfort in, it’s that George is remarkably good at covering plot holes for a series this complex. If Dany becomes a villain, I trust it will happen in a way that is logical for the character.

My current theory regarding that awful season seven plot in Winterfell is that rather than trying to kill Arya, Littlefinger will try to take out Bran, which will be what finally turns Sansa against him. If Bran is to be king, then he needs to rule as a lord first in order to prove himself to the other lords. Even if George had kept the five year gap, Bran would still be too young to rule on his own, so Sansa could be his regent. In the show, Sansa offered the lordship to Bran when he first returned home—maybe her supporters will encourage her to push her claim over Bran’s, but she refuses (possibly even specifically to prevent LF’s plans from coming to fruition). If Jon is off fighting wars, then it would make sense for Sansa and Bran to be left behind to take care of Winterfell. The only thing is, George would have to find a way to make the timeline stretch long enough for Sansa to be at least sixteen by the time her and Bran return to Winterfell.

Dany could come into conflict with the Starks, due to their differing political goals, without being vilified.

I don’t expect Dany to become Her Satanic Majesty, Jon a spineless worm, Sansa Cersei 2.0, Tyrion a treacherous moron, Arya a sadist, and Bran R2 D2 in the books, unlike later seasons.

[The Bard of Banefort]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany could come into conflict with the Starks, due to their differing political goals, without being vilified.

I don’t expect Dany to become Her Satanic Majesty, Jon a spineless worm, Sansa Cersei 2.0, Tyrion a treacherous moron, Arya a sadist, and Bran R2 D2 in the books, unlike later seasons.

I don’t either. I think that Dany will be betrayed many times during her clash with Aegon, which will harden her heart. 
 

The funny thing is, D&D love Cersei so much that they probably thought Sansa becoming Cersei 2.0 was a good thing.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don’t expect Dany to become Her Satanic Majesty, Jon a spineless worm, Sansa Cersei 2.0, Tyrion a treacherous moron, Arya a sadist, and Bran R2 D2 in the books, unlike later seasons.

That's an insult to R2D2. 

Artoo will have more character than the Stark fucker ("Why do you think I came all this way?") ever will, especially in S8. If you'll pardon my French. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I found these two blog posts/interviews by George from a few years ago, where he mentioned characters that were cut from the show (links posted at the bottom). In the interview, George listed five characters he wished hadn't been cut: Strong Belwas, Jeyne Poole, Garlan and Willas, and Lady Stoneheart. Then in the Notablog post, there was this line:

Quote

There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

In addition to confirming that there will be unicorns, I think it's telling that he mentions Lady Stoneheart, Jeyne, and Garlan in both pieces. Stoneheart, I suspect, will be integral to whatever ends up happening to Jaime and Brienne in TWOW, and some of Arya's revenge plot (i.e. killing Walder Frey) will probably be undertaken by Stoneheart as well. I'm hoping that something good will happen to Jeyne Poole, and I find it likely that she'll be reunited with one or both of the Stark sisters at some point. As for Garlan, he'll all but certainly play an integral role in the wars to come.

Then there are the characters that he left out. Reading ADWD, Val sure seems to be an important supporting character, but ever since the show ended, I've wondered if she's going to meet an inglorious end in TWOW. He also doesn't mention Harry Hardyng, which I think further indicates that Harry isn't long for the world. He mentions Aegon, but none of his entourage, including JonCon. 

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

https://ew.com/article/2015/05/31/game-thrones-lady-stoneheart/

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

That's an insult to R2D2. 

Artoo will have more character than the Stark fucker ("Why do you think I came all this way?") ever will, especially in S8. If you'll pardon my French. 

You’re right.  I apologise to R2D2.  

[Angel Eyes]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t either. I think that Dany will be betrayed many times during her clash with Aegon, which will harden her heart. 
 

The funny thing is, D&D love Cersei so much that they probably thought Sansa becoming Cersei 2.0 was a good thing.

They didn't love her in the last season since she didn't do much except get rocks getting dumped on her head.

 

[BlackLightning]

22 hours ago, SeanF said:

Dany could come into conflict with the Starks, due to their differing political goals, without being vilified.

Exactly.

Dany, ever the progressive, could push for a centralized absolute monarchy...which, mind you, is the system she ruled by in Meereen. Whereas the Starks (particularly Sansa and Arya) could be much more conservative in their preference with the current confederate system of feudalism.

And as we all might know, political differences can get very out-of-hand, very quickly. One side misunderstands and demonizes the other side.

And @The Bard of Banefort it's not just Dany fans who were upset about that ending either.

On 1/31/2022 at 3:04 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Since they omitted the valonqar from the show, I’m thinking whoever it is probably relates to one of the many cut characters/plots. Aegon is technically a younger brother, but I have a hard time seeing him murder Cersei by such personal means as strangulation. Euron and Victarion are both younger brothers, and they’ve both killed a wife or lover. Then again, maybe Arya’s the valonqar but they thought having her kill both Cersei and the Night King was too much. She is referred to as “the little sister” a few times in the books.

You're also forgetting Aeron. And the Falia Flowers situation.

I think Falia Flowers is a precursor to what will happen to Cersei when she falls in with Euron.

I think it'll be fascinating to see Cersei come full circle. Cersei (who is becoming more and more like Robert) being used up by Euron (the Cersei stand-in), being surrounded by ironmen ("red cloak" stand-ins) and being mostly oblivious to the schemes in that she is too busy being an alcoholic before being killed by Euron (or one of his brothers).

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

Dany, ever the progressive, could push for a centralized absolute monarchy...which, mind you, is the system she ruled by in Meereen. Whereas the Starks (particularly Sansa and Arya) could be much more conservative in their preference with the current confederate system of feudalism.

And as we all might know, political differences can get very out-of-hand, very quickly. One side misunderstands and demonizes the other side.

And @The Bard of Banefort it's not just Dany fans who were upset about that ending either.

You're also forgetting Aeron. And the Falia Flowers situation.

I think Falia Flowers is a precursor to what will happen to Cersei when she falls in with Euron.

I think it'll be fascinating to see Cersei come full circle. Cersei (who is becoming more and more like Robert) being used up by Euron (the Cersei stand-in), being surrounded by ironmen ("red cloak" stand-ins) and being mostly oblivious to the schemes in that she is too busy being an alcoholic before being killed by Euron (or one of his brothers).

Dany might want to force through her great-grandfather’s intended reforms, provoking fury from much of the nobility.

[The Bard of Banefort]

59 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

Dany, ever the progressive, could push for a centralized absolute monarchy...which, mind you, is the system she ruled by in Meereen. Whereas the Starks (particularly Sansa and Arya) could be much more conservative in their preference with the current confederate system of feudalism.

And as we all might know, political differences can get very out-of-hand, very quickly. One side misunderstands and demonizes the other side.

And @The Bard of Banefort it's not just Dany fans who were upset about that ending either.

You're also forgetting Aeron. And the Falia Flowers situation.

I think Falia Flowers is a precursor to what will happen to Cersei when she falls in with Euron.

I think it'll be fascinating to see Cersei come full circle. Cersei (who is becoming more and more like Robert) being used up by Euron (the Cersei stand-in), being surrounded by ironmen ("red cloak" stand-ins) and being mostly oblivious to the schemes in that she is too busy being an alcoholic before being killed by Euron (or one of his brothers).

Honestly, a Euron-Cersei match would be so much fun to read about.  I feel like he would let Cersei think she’s in charge while manipulating her, just like he did with Victarion.
 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

They didn't love her in the last season since she didn't do much except get rocks getting dumped on her head.

 

They got rid of Aegon and made Cersei queen instead, had her easily beat Dany and Jon all through season 7, and gave her a sympathetic death that completely overlooked all her terrible deeds and instead portrayed her as “just a girl who needed comfort.” They love Cersei.

[The Bard of Banefort]

There are a few things I think were probably just fan service in retrospect: Cleganebowl, Cersei blowing up the sept (there’s no indication that they’re going to outlaw trial by combat in the books. If anything, I think Cersei’s love of wildfire is a red herring for Daenerys. Plus, don’t forget that Natalie Dormer asked to be killed off the show), Jaime and Brienne having sex (although I could see him knighting her).

All I know is that I don’t want Jaime to be the valonqar. People act like this would be a redemptive thing for him, but no matter how many times she betrayed him, Cersei is still Jaime’s sister, partner, and the mother of his children. Killing her would essentially turn Jaime into OJ Simpson.

Edited February 8, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There are a few things I think were probably just fan service in retrospect: Cleganebowl, Cersei blowing up the sept (there’s no indication that they’re going to outlaw trial by combat on the show. If anything, I think Cersei’s love of wildfire is a red herring for Daenerys. Plus, don’t forget that Natalie Dormer asked to be killed off the show), Jaime and Brienne having sex (although I could see him knighting her).

All I know is that I don’t want Jaime to be the valonqar. People act like this would be a redemptive thing for him, but no matter how many times she betrayed him, Cersei is still Jaime’s sister, partner, and the mother of his children. Killing her would essentially turn Jaime into OJ Simpson.

Not to mention the kin slaying.