Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[divica]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wonder about Arya.  We still have "When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."  And we know she's not going to kill the "night king" in the books.  Which makes one wonder what she is going to do, because I do expect her to do something of significance.  While I think Jaime will kill Cersei, I suppose she's still a candidate there. 

But if she does survive, what motivation doesn't she have to sail west?  Or rather, what motivation would she have to go back to Braavos, or to Essos in general?  I don't see how those are innately more likely options.  Sure, she liked hanging out in Braavos, but she's also an explorer at heart.

Arya's story probably will be related to the interests of the faceless in the citadel at first and then either protecting or killing someone with her faceless training.

And we have no idea how her identity crisis arc is going to end up… If she decides to be arya stark she won t leave westeros… 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wonder about Arya.  We still have "When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."  And we know she's not going to kill the "night king" in the books.  Which makes one wonder what she is going to do, because I do expect her to do something of significance.  While I think Jaime will kill Cersei, I suppose she's still a candidate there. 

But if she does survive, what motivation doesn't she have to sail west?  Or rather, what motivation would she have to go back to Braavos, or to Essos in general?  I don't see how those are innately more likely options.  Sure, she liked hanging out in Braavos, but she's also an explorer at heart.

It doesn't matter who Arya kills, it matters who and what she becomes. Hers is a personal story, the most personal in the books, one assumes, it doesn't really matter to what degree she interacts with the overall plot. I daresay her caring much about Cersei as the story progresses is not very likely.

Arya never expressed any intention of sailing west in the books, and she is would hardly be older than 13 years by the time the series ends. She isn't going to captain a ship at that age, and nobody is going to go on such a nonsensical quest with her, anyway. That smells like a stupid plot device they came up because they couldn't think of anything else. Not to mention that George having used that device rather recently with Elissa Farman is not going to repeat it with Arya. That way Arya would just rip-off somebody's else plot.

Braavos might be interesting for her because she can be normal there. Become Cat of the Canals again, disappear amidst the crowds. That's something that could make her happy, if she cannot return to Winterfell or Westeros in general. It is something she enjoyed in AFfC - and it is actually also something George very much enjoyed writing.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, divica said:

And we have no idea how her identity crisis arc is going to end up… If she decides to be arya stark she won t leave westeros… 

Spoiler

I think with the Mercy chapter she's already well on her way to reclaiming her identity.  Will the FM go after her for abandoning them?  I don't know, that seems below them.  They've given her every chance to leave, so that she finally did?  Seems settled.

 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Hers is a personal story, the most personal in the books, one assumes, it doesn't really matter to what degree she interacts with the overall plot.

I don't see why her story is inherently more personal than, say, Dany's or Jon's or Tyrion's or Bran's.  You could say it's more individualistic, in that Arya doesn't really care about the game whereas all those other four do at least in some way.  Which is precisely why her peacing out and sailing west makes good sense.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya never expressed any intention of sailing west in the books, and she is would hardly be older than 13 years by the time the series ends.

Y'all get really hung up on ages.  Lots more than the characters in the books do.  She got to Braavos with a coin.  She's a very rich woman, relatively speaking.  She can pay for a crew to do whatever she wants, unless House Stark ceases to exist.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that George having used that device rather recently with Elissa Farman is not going to repeat it with Arya.

Why would Martin recently publishing Elissa Farman's story make Arya sailing west less likely?  I don't think there's any relationship there, but one could easily make the argument Farman's tale is foreshadowing Arya's.

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Braavos might be interesting for her because she can be normal there. Become Cat of the Canals again,

Meh, she could do that anywhere outside the North.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Arya’s arc is to almost lose and then find her Stark identity again.

The burying of Needle rather than destroying it. The future  reunion with Nymeria. She will go from No one to Arya Stark again. And in that rediscovery of her identity the climax of her arc will be initiated - whatever that may be. Something to do with the Pack being a better option than the Lone Wolf.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Free Northman Reborn

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, DMC said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think with the Mercy chapter she's already well on her way to reclaiming her identity.  Will the FM go after her for abandoning them?  I don't know, that seems below them.  They've given her every chance to leave, so that she finally did?  Seems settled.

I don't see why her story is inherently more personal than, say, Dany's or Jon's or Tyrion's or Bran's.  You could say it's more individualistic, in that Arya doesn't really care about the game whereas all those other four do at least in some way.  Which is precisely why her peacing out and sailing west makes good sense.

Hers is still the story of a child. She has no political agenda of her own. Sailing west makes no sense for her, in fact, if her story were really about her 'Stark identity'.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Y'all get really hung up on ages.  Lots more than the characters in the books do.  She got to Braavos with a coin.  She's a very rich woman, relatively speaking.  She can pay for a crew to do whatever she wants, unless House Stark ceases to exist.

She got to Braavos because she made the Braavosi on the ship believe she was a Faceless Girl. That's what the iron coin did.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Why would Martin recently publishing Elissa Farman's story make Arya sailing west less likely?  I don't think there's any relationship there, but one could easily make the argument Farman's tale is foreshadowing Arya's.

Because there is little reason to believe he is going to want to give Arya the story of another person. And nothing in the books implies Arya wants to see all the world - nor is there any indication she has any desire to sail west. If either was the case she might right now be tempted to jump on a ship and do some exploring. But is she tempted in such a fashion? No.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Meh, she could do that anywhere outside the North.

She could, but Braavos and the people there are the place and people she actually felt comfortable with. She liked being Cat - she did not like to be Weasel and Mouse in the Riverlands - and she liked the people she interacted with as Cat. That's more we can say about anybody else she met during her journey - the other people all either abandoned or disappointed her. 

In any case - in my opinion the Arya ending as well as the ridiculous use of Arya in the last couple of seasons was nonsense. She is not going to bake Frey pies or steal the role her own mother has in the Riverlands. She is not going to kill some people only to get second thoughts in her desire to kill certain people after talking to FUCKING SANDOR, she is not going to defeat the Others. Considering her role was changed so much in comparison to what expect in the books we can safely say, I think, that her ending in the show was basically just shit they made up.

[divica]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She could, but Braavos and the people there are the place and people she actually felt comfortable with. She liked being Cat - she did not like to be Weasel and Mouse in the Riverlands - and she liked the people she interacted with as Cat. That's more we can say about anybody else she met during her journey - the other people all either abandoned or disappointed her. 

To be fair, she traveled within the riverlands in the worse possible time. It isn t really fair to compare her interaction with the people of the riverlands with the people in braavos.

And I agree that arya won t be taking a ship to make a travel nobody has returned from so far… She isn t a sailor lol… And if one of her familly members ends up in a position of power she will have entertainment for the rest of her life acting as his/her spy wherever she wants.

[Lion of the West]

I don't find it unresaonable that she'll become an adventurer who seeks to do a "Nymeria 2.0". The idea that she will, after she finally find her family, discover that her trauma will forever have distanced her from really being part of it again sounds like a bitter ending. But that she will go on adventures unhindred and traverse the world seems like a sweeter part of the ending. Besides such a thing has been forshadowed with both the Ironmen House mentioning lands to the west, the Stark who headed west and some, I've come to understand, points in the story and backstory.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Thinking about it now, I can see how Bran will take on Rodrik the Reader/Maester Aemon-esque role in the war against the Others, informing the others about what is coming, designing a plan to face them, and putting himself in harm's way to draw the Others out in order to be destroyed. I'm also guessing he's going to do something to help during the actual battle - warg a dragon, perhaps? - which will earn him respect afterwards. Assuming there is another Great Council, nominating a man who showed both great wisdom and courage during the Long Night makes a lot more sense than someone who "has the best story."

[lancerman]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:24 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Aegon will be in Cersei’s role - meaning in possession of King’s Landing with the Golden Company, but dragonless.

The Dragonhorn plotline will be rather pointless if Euron does not get a dragon as a result of it, so I expect he will get one.

Possibly that's one way it works out. Aegon however presents complications for Dany and a mummer's dragon is one of her prophecy points. So I could see a scenario where Dany realizes Aegon is a threat and prematurely ends his assault by burning him or some other method similar to how she took two cities without a whole lot of effort. This would leave Connington specifically out for revenge and could align him with Cersei. and give her the Golden Company. 

I don't think Cersei will perish this early in the books. Aegon is just one additional problem to her along with the Faith Millitant and the Tyrells. And honestly I can't see a character who was just added last book figuring this much into the endgame anymore. It wouldn't work with Jamie for Cersei to just get defeated this early imo. Also I just kind of feel like Cersei is an easier character to set up as an antagonist for Dany. She has the history of the entire book series. 

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, divica said:

And I agree that arya won t be taking a ship to make a travel nobody has returned from so far… She isn t a sailor lol… And if one of her familly members ends up in a position of power she will have entertainment for the rest of her life acting as his/her spy wherever she wants.

Sailing west, where no one, even the best mariners with the best ships, have returned. Or found only a sea without end. Seems stupid. And the Starks are not mariners. I could understand this of Theon, but not of Arya. If she wanted to "explore", she could go with Jon. To the far North. And Nymeria could go with her. No way the 2 will not be reunited.

And if she doesn't marry Gendry, some Stark girl will marry one of Robert's bastards. As Bobby promised Ned.

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sailing west makes no sense for her, in fact, if her story were really about her 'Stark identity'.

As the show depicted, it's entirely possible she both reclaims her Stark identity, helps her pack survive, and then wonders "what now?" at the conclusion, as she has nothing else to do and no one (sorry) else to fight.  Arya Stark has made abundantly clear she does not wish to be a lady.  And if events end up in a similar fashion to the show, nobody will be in a position to force her to do so (or at least would want to try).  In such case, it makes plenty of sense that she goes off exploring.  Where?  Like I said, the unknown west is just as likely as anywhere else.  It is in-character that'd she go somewhere rare, exotic, and at least she's never seen before.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because there is little reason to believe he is going to want to give Arya the story of another person.

It's not the story of another person, it's foreshadowing her ending.  No matter what she does at the endgame, it's almost certain we can find an example of someone doing the exact same thing a priori.  That's just the consequence of creating such a vast menagerie of characters and history.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She could, but Braavos and the people there are the place and people she actually felt comfortable with. She liked being Cat - she did not like to be Weasel and Mouse in the Riverlands - and she liked the people she interacted with as Cat.

As @divica mentioned, I disagree with this interpretation.  Obviously, she was in more immediate danger in the Riverlands.  But that does not mean she didn't "enjoy" it any less than her time in Braavos.  She certainly made more meaningful relationships in the Riverlands, and that experience helped make her the person she is.  Nostalgia is a weird thing, it's quite possible Arya looks back on those times in the Riverlands with more fondness than her time in Braavos.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She is not going to bake Frey pies or steal the role her own mother has in the Riverlands. She is not going to kill some people only to get second thoughts in her desire to kill certain people after talking to FUCKING SANDOR, she is not going to defeat the Others.

While I definitely agree with the rest, I actually liked that part.  I think Sandor is one of the very few people in the world Arya would actually listen to and respects.

Anyway, out of curiosity, what DO you think her ending will be?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Anyway, out of curiosity, what DO you think her ending will be?

As I said, I don't know.

And I think I've said all there is to say on this topic. Really don't care enough for the show to use it as a basis for a discussion. We seem to be on the level of personal preference at this point - and there I can just repeat that the way Arya's story ended is just a cheap and childish ending for me. If George cannot come up with a better ending for her he should better kill her off. That could at least be a touching scene.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Really don't care enough for the show to use it as a basis for a discussion.

Well, you're really in the exact wrong thread then.  As for Martin killing her off, I do still think that's a distinct possibility, domestic difficulties be damned.  But, if he doesn't, I think the show ending is just as reasonable and likely as anything else - and certainly more likely than marrying her off to, say, Gendry, which has always been what my heart wants.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Well, you're really in the exact wrong thread then.  As for Martin killing her off, I do still think that's a distinct possibility, domestic difficulties be damned.  But, if he doesn't, I think the show ending is just as reasonable and likely as anything else - and certainly more likely than marrying her off to, say, Gendry, which has always been what my heart wants.

I just meant I'm not exactly committed to continue this discussion much longer. I wanted to say my piece here - which was why I laid out some things above - but I don't think it is particularly productive to continue discuss taste issues (and it is just a taste issue for me - I find Arya's ending pointless and distasteful).

There are many other things Arya can do aside from leaving Westeros and marrying some dude - by the way. Make use of her abilities in a productive way, take part in government in some way.

What I find especially silly at the show ending is that, if this was also the book ending, we would have a 12-13-year-old making a decision that's most likely going to get her killed. Thanks to George's stupid decision to have the children not grow during the series I don't think it would show respect to the character to actually end the story on a note implying we know the sum of their lives. That is impossible.

I think Linda said it in her videos on the show that she expects the Epilogue of the last to be from Bran's POV in the cave, as he grows old and dies while the decades and centuries race past (which I think is a great idea!), giving us a glimpse on the future and eventual deaths of the various characters. In such a context I could see a 25- or 35-year-old Arya Stark who stumbled on the story of Elissa Farman and developed an interest in navigation and sailing to eventually get herself a ship and sail west. But the 12-13-year-old child we know? Not a chance.

And going back to Braavos would be a necessity for that kind of thing, anyway, considering that the Westerosi do not really build the kind of ships one would need to make an attempt to cross the Sunset Sea.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Make use of her abilities in a productive way, take part in government in some way.

My thinking for a long time has been she would help Dany on an expedition to Essos - to finish the latter's job in Volantis etc.  But, considering how poorly it was handled and the backlash they must have known they were gonna get, I do now assume Dany's heel turn comes from Martin's ending, including Jon killing her (which I assume is the third "WTF" moment D&D referred to years ago).  So, in that way I've always thought Arya would be an adventurer of sorts if she survives, regardless of the show.  I don't see her playing some type of role with a small council, or helping out at Winterfell, that's not her.  I also don't think she'd go beyond the wall, especially if Jon is as well.  That's a little too on the nose, and would not be what I'd define as bittersweet (it'd be wholly sweet if the two of them ended up like that).  

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Linda said it in her videos on the show that she expects the Epilogue of the last to be from Bran's POV in the cave, as he grows old and dies while the decades and centuries race past

I have always anticipated something similar as well, I think it bookends the series in a great way.  However, that does not mean Bran has to stay in the cave the entire time.  Your stubborn insistence on that in the face of tonnage of evidence is kind of adorable, though, I suppose. 

Been thinking about it, and since you mention this, a great way to merge Bran and Arya's endings is it's ___ years later, and Bran's last sight before laying his eyes to an eternal rest is a woman approaching the Winterfell weirwood - a woman that looked strikingly similar to a girl that entranced a prince lifetimes ago, or even a tomboyish sister to a young boy that climbed too much - returned from the far west.  She smiled at the weirwood, and Bran smiled back.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the 12-13-year-old child we know? Not a chance.

Again, I don't get why you (and others) are so hung up on the ages.  Wanna know what I was willing to - and did - do at 12-13?  A lot of impulsive things.  In that way one could argue it's more logical she'd embark on such an expedition at such an age compared to when she matures.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said, I don't know.

And I think I've said all there is to say on this topic. Really don't care enough for the show to use it as a basis for a discussion. We seem to be on the level of personal preference at this point - and there I can just repeat that the way Arya's story ended is just a cheap and childish ending for me. If George cannot come up with a better ending for her he should better kill her off. That could at least be a touching scene.

I saw Arya's ending as an homage to Return of the King. Like Frodo, I suspect Arya will feel that she is too damaged to stay with her family in Winterfell.

[Ser Hedge]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Linda said it in her videos on the show that she expects the Epilogue of the last to be from Bran's POV in the cave, as he grows old and dies while the decades and centuries race past (which I think is a great idea!), giving us a glimpse on the future and eventual deaths of the various characters.

This would be a fantastic way of ending the series for sure: Provides enough information what the surviving characters went on/might have gone on to do, while staying inside a main character's POV. In fact the series would be book-ended by Bran POVs. Bran the boy who fell from a tower and went on to outlive them all. Dare I say it - bittersweet?

Clearly, we now know that Dany's arc is a dark one. She embraces fire and blood since trying to compromise politically and planting trees only left her starving in the wastes of Essos again. She had forgotten Hazea's name too, but I'm not sure that means indiscriminate fire and blood, it should be far more nuanced then that.

Arianne's musings in the sample TWOW chapters sets up a confrontation between Dany and fAegon/Arianne, so Dance V2 is definitely on the cards, leaving the south devastated and Dany hated in most of Westeros.

Not sure if it's obvious that Euron and Cersei form an alliance like on the show. It could be Euron and Dany, though obviously that doesn't end well.

Now if, as most of us think, Stannis wins the battle of ice, that leaves us with so many major characters still in play that the ending of the show really does not spoil the books for a very long time, if at all!

 

[Ser Hedge]

On 5/26/2019 at 12:12 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Another question is. Can a dragon kill an Other? How much are they useful in the cold? I don't think the dragons are the answer. They are a threat. Fire as much as Ice, are the threats converging to Westeros. Moqorro is also part of the Fire's Another question is. Can a dragon kill an Other? How much are they useful in the cold? I don't think the dragons are the answer. They are a threat. Fire as much as Ice. Moqorro is also part of the Fire threat..

Good point. Queen Alysanne's inability to fly over the Wall removes the possibility of Dany or any other dragon rider flying North (while the Wall is still standing) to deal with the Others, assuming they were even inclined to do so (say, to win the North's allegiance).

Beric's and LS' resurrections, along with the magic Moqorro is able to perform (and even the magic Dany performed without fully being in control of, when hatching the dragons), while perhaps being able to counter the threat of the Others, could as you say become as much of a threat. This was shown in the show in a colossally clumsy way of Dany going cuckoo with her WMD, while it should be a totally different approach in the books - widespread fire sacrifices maybe? Red priests creating foul sorceries across the realm? (Visenya, Bloodraven and Shiera were all rumoured to have practised sorceries with a very negative connotation laying the groundwork to how Westerosis view this)

Perhaps that's why fire magic needs to be removed as well. And was the birth of dragons not credited with stronger magic? For instance the alchemists being able to turn out wildfire much faster?

Dany needs to be slain, so Jon can become Drogon's rider in order to kill him?

Not saying I like this, just suddenly popped up. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Ser Hedge

[Stannis is the man....nis]

The problem is as the show showed back in S5 with Sansa as Jenye that D&D have no problem giving side characters quests to the main cast so this raises the questions what is a spoiler and what is just D&D checking off boxes. Like Arya killing the Freys. Is that a George thing or is that say LSH endgame and they just shoved Arya in. An if so what is Arya’s training building to? Is there a battle of the bastards or does Stannis beat the Boltons and they just gave it to Jon? Also how much of Faegon’s plot did Cersei steal? Same with Yara and Victorian. So quite frankly we don’t know how much the books got spoiled until we get the books 

[Lord Varys]

42 minutes ago, DMC said:

I have always anticipated something similar as well, I think it bookends the series in a great way.  However, that does not mean Bran has to stay in the cave the entire time.  Your stubborn insistence on that in the face of tonnage of evidence is kind of adorable, though, I suppose. 

Well, I was relaying what Linda said there - she also doesn't believe the boy gets out of the cave. And it is really silly to suggest otherwise, in my opinion. Bloodraven isn't the devil, but he isn't a nice guy, either, and Bran made a devil's pact there when he ate that paste. He may be a small child still, but he knows he exchanged his humanity for knowledge and power - a knowledge and power walking people don't get.

I mean, have you ever asked why the hell George made Bran into a cripple in the first place? In this setting? Most likely not to make him a specifically mobile character...

42 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, I don't get why you (and others) are so hung up on the ages.  Wanna know what I was willing to - and did - do at 12-13?  A lot of impulsive things.  In that way one could argue it's more logical she'd embark on such an expedition at such an age compared to when she matures.

Because it is quite clear that the show changed stories based on the ages of the characters, no? We are also not going to see strong Baratheon seed getting pumped inside the she-wolf pup, are we?

Overall I expect Arya and Dany to hook up somehow before Dany gets to Westeros - because she already is in Essos, and it seems 'Jaqen' wants to steal the book that tells you how to kill dragons. So she is likely going to be part of that mission and gets back to Westeros from there. Anything else would be basically her plot from the show - and that was entirely vapid in those parts that didn't have her doing things Cat is going to do.

35 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I saw Arya's ending as an homage to Return of the King. Like Frodo, I suspect Arya will feel that she is too damaged to stay with her family in Winterfell.

You can see it that way, I guess, but that's not how it was depicted. She never looked or appeared to be damaged in the show. I'd agree that she is certainly never going to happy with her family again, assuming she is going to care much about them, but there is no direct line from there to 'I want to sail west despite the fact that I'm not sailor and never expressed any interest in that kind of thing'.

27 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Clearly, we now know that Dany's arc is a dark one. She embraces fire and blood since trying to compromise politically and planting trees only left her starving in the wastes of Essos again. She had forgotten Hazea's name too, but I'm not sure that means indiscriminate fire and blood, it should be far more nuanced then that.

She can burn all of Westeros for all I care ;-). No idea how well that's going to go in winter.

27 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Arianne's musings in the sample TWOW chapters sets up a confrontation between Dany and fAegon/Arianne, so Dance V2 is definitely on the cards, leaving the south devastated and Dany hated in most of Westeros.

We don't have to look for the show for a Second Dance. George told us about that. How this is going to play out is completely unclear. But since there are actually stronger hints that Euron is going to sit the Iron Throne than that Aegon is going to sit there, one wonders who is going to break the golden boy - Euron or Dany? If Aegon ever becomes a proper king it will happen soon. He can take KL now. Euron will have to try later, and Dany is not going to even arrive in Westeros in the next book.

27 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Not sure if it's obvious that Euron and Cersei form an alliance like on the show. It could be Euron and Dany, though obviously that doesn't end well.

It is pretty obvious that these two will hook up. Dany doesn't need Euron and he is on the other end of the world right now. If he were Victarion then such a thing could happen, but George ended that plot line when he had Euron stay in Westeros - just as he ended the Aegon-Dany hookup when he had Aegon not to go to Meereen.

6 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Good point. Queen Alysanne's inability to fly over the Wall removes the possibility of Dany or any other dragon rider flying North (while the Wall is still standing) to deal with the Others, assuming they were even inclined to do so (say, to win the North's allegiance).

That is not exactly true. Silverwing is just one dragon, and a rather docile one at that. Things Silverwing is afraid of, Drogon or Balerion or Vhagar may have laughed at. But the idea that three dragons can 'deal' with the Others (on their own turf) was always nonsense.

They can help defeat their armies, they can destroy individual Others, but they cannot kill them all.

6 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Beric's and LS' resurrections, along with the magic Moqorro is able to perform (and even the magic Dany performed without fully being in control of, when hatching the dragons), while perhaps being able to counter the threat of the Others, could as you say become as much of a threat. This was shown in the show in a colossally clumsy way of Dany going cuckoo with her WMD, while it should be a totally different approach in the books - widespread fire sacrifices maybe? Red priests creating foul sorceries across the realm? (Visenya, Bloodraven and Shiera were all rumoured to have practised sorceries with a very negative connotation laying the groundwork to how Westerosis view this).

I don't expect anything of that sort in a negative way. The red priests will bring fire and warmth to Westeros during the Long Night. The literal fire that burns against the cold (freezing black brothers never did that kind of thing all that convincingly, just ask Gared ;-)).

Anybody sacrificed to R'hllor or Brandon 'the old god' or the Stranger (and there will be many such people) should not be seen in a negative way. Desperate people will take desperate measures, and there is no Gandalf in this world who could tell the good guys not to do cruel things, nor is there a Ring that could be destroyed so the monsters go away.

Bran's powers are fueled by blood sacrifices, too. If he is to intervene on the behalf of the living or even contact them to talk to them they will have nurture the weirwoods with human blood.

At this point I cannot see the Dany-Jon ending after the Others are dealt with. The Second Dance should take place before not after the Others, and if there are people who abandon/betray humanity during the War for the Dawn who is going to speak in their defense after the Others are defeated? And why would they do that?

There could be betrayals and murders and the like even after the Others are dealt with, especially if mortal enemies did indeed agree to work together to deal with them and then fight out their issues afterwards, but that would be a completely different scenario.

And, frankly, if Dany is killed I see Tyrion doing it, not Jon. Tyrion is the jealous guy, and he is the one who is going to snap if things don't go his way after they had finally starting to look bright for him. Especially if he were to become a dragonrider.

I mean, does anybody really believe the Dinklage ending can even remotely reflect George's ending for Tyrion? I can't. They changed that character so much that basically nothing fits there anymore. Nothing at all.