Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

He will never end it, so all this discussion is really irrelevant, he will never finish in two more books and he will never get another book out after Winds of Winter.  The 5 year gap is the reason the whole thing went off the rails in the first place and is still off the rails.  Bran sure as hell cannot be King at 12 years old, so he is going to have to progress the story 5 years to make it believable. 

Well, if you are willing to accept that Bran becomes king, GRRM never said there won't also be a regency. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show can suck and still have been faithful to the ending he gave them, which is what the totality of everyone's statements in context indicates.  He has said that he's known the ending for the main characters for YEARS, which is the ending he gave the show, which they said they loved.  

He literally did NOT say that

 

He said this.

--"I’ve been so slow with these books," Martin told Rolling Stone. "The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added."

12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If the ending is accurate to that character, it was poorly written. If the ending isn't accurate to that character and is something different, it was also poorly written.

As I can't think of a single character who has been handled well especially compared to the early seasons, if we use quality as a measure of judging accuracy, then 100% of the show is inaccurate to the ending of the book characters. 

100% agree, the show is inacurate for all characters

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, I hate the endings for everyone as well, except for Dany,

we know.

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Which Nymeria did this?

Sorry, I meant she resisted the Valyrians. Rather than fight them in the battlefield she led her people to safety as refugees. 

[divica]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Sure, I hate the endings for everyone as well, except for Dany, because this is actually a good and tragic ending for her, because it was never very believable that the woman who has wanted the IT since the first book....was going to get the IT in the end and be happy about it.  GRRM always punishes his characters.  It's a very tragic ending, and I suspect that both Arya and Jon especially will be much more tragic feeling than the show, which tried to spin that as happy.  Me, personally, I think Sansa should die, but I gave up on that idea a long time ago and it looks like she will get the biggest reward next to Tyrion. 

I like the idea of danny's ending. I hate her journey in the show to get there. Not only s8 but after her arc in s7 I just don t get her ending… For her to end up as a villain her relation with jon and the great lords of westeros should have been diferent. But I also think she could have had diferent satisfactory happier endings… 

I hate jon's ending in the show. I just can t see it happening in the books without me hating even more… 

And show sansa and tyrion are completly awful. Book tyrion is acused of several crimes and generally hated by everyone. I have no idea how he can end up as hand or a lord after arriving in westeros supporting danny that ends up being a tyrant… He will surelly make new enemies by suporting danny… And Sansa's last seasons were completly awful. I look at marg and loras relation in the show where they are really tight and doing whatever they can for each other and then I look at sansa's relation with jon (or any of her other siblings) and she lies to him, betrays him, undermines him… In the books I just don t really care about sansa...

[divica]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He will never end it, so all this discussion is really irrelevant, he will never finish in two more books and he will never get another book out after Winds of Winter.  The 5 year gap is the reason the whole thing went off the rails in the first place and is still off the rails.  Bran sure as hell cannot be King at 12 years old, so he is going to have to progress the story 5 years to make it believable. 

I think people will actually prefer that he never ends the story. That way everybody can be imagine the end they want for the characters….

After GOT I think most fans lost hope that they  will like grrm's ending...

[teej6]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Beric is a secondary character, who is already dead in the books.  The ending will be the same for the main characters.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Dany, yes, Dany fans, she will turn into a tyrant and die, Jon may not kill her or he might.  Jon will go back to the NW for a life of desolation.  Sansa will rule Winterfell and the North, Bran will be King, Tyrion will keep playing the GOT and the twins will die together.  The Others will be defeated, but I doubt Arya plays any role there whatsoever.  Rickon will die.  

Like I keep saying, people who don't like the ending for their favs are grasping at the straws that GRRM all too willingly provides as part of his equivocating, trollish persona....

Your post is full of holes. If you believe D&D’s version of the Others being completely defeated, then there can’t be a NW. The NW was a militant order whose purpose was to protect the realm of men. It wasn’t set up as a penal colony. No need for such an order considering the WWs don’t exist and the Wildlings are this side of the Wall. So no NW for Jon to go back to. GRRM is not stupid or sloppy enough to keep the NW going once it has served its purpose. Either the WW threat continue to exist and the NW exists or the WWs are completely destroyed (as in the show) and NW ceases to exists. You can’t have it both ways. Even stupid D&D couldn’t explain why it still exists so they had show!Jon ask the dumb question as to whether it still exists.

And I’m more certain than ever before that Rickon will survive and be Lord of WF. Sansa will probably act as his regent. Davos will find Rickon and the North will rally behind him through Manderly.

No one is grasping at straws as you say because they don’t like the ending of their favorite characters, people are shaking their heads in disbelief because there’s no narrative way that the things in the books are going to end up like in the show. Firstly, the show is third-grade writing at best, and the way things are currently in the books GRRM will have to make major leaps in the characters’ arcs to get them where they in the show at the end.  An 11 yr old is not going to be “elected” king of anything, let alone the 7 kingdoms and neither is a 13 yr old going to captain a ship and explore the high seas.

You seem to have a very defeatist and hopeless view of how the books will turn out. In fact you even think that GRRM will not finish the books. I, and many others, think that GRRM will find a way to make the books satisfying to a lot of his readers and will finish the books if he stays healthy and alive for a few more years. If he does make Bran king in the end, it will be in a manner that is convincing and organic.  

[teej6]

23 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The show and books align for Sansa taking on a bigger role in the North. We've been over this in other threads. I told you LF is already planning on taking her there and setting her up as QitN. 

And I’ve never been convinced with any of your arguments. Correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t you also a proponent of Jonsa? I guess that theory is out the window now considering the happenings in the show? Or isn’t it? Well, we are not going to agree, so cheers!

[Cas Stark]

15 minutes ago, T and A said:

It would be funny, if it weren't so sad, how this forum has become 10 people denying and bargaining about the reveal they got blown in their face 

yep.

[Lollygag]

GRRM has said he'll deal with the age issues as he will. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA/

 

Q: 5-year gap?

A: It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, "Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it's been kinda nice." And Cersei chapters where she thought, "Well, I've had to kill sooo many people the last five years." So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn't told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, T and A said:

It would be funny, if it weren't so sad, how this forum has become 10 people denying and bargaining about the reveal they got blown in their face 

umm, yeah, I think your numbers are off.

[Rose of Red Lake]

 

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

And I’ve never been convinced with any of your arguments. Correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t you also a proponent of Jonsa? I guess that theory is out the window now considering the happenings in the show? Or isn’t it? Well, we are not going to agree, so cheers!

My arguments on Sansa and Dany ended up being canon in the show. My arguments on Jonsa did not that's 2 out of 3. Plus, I am happy because Jon chose Sansa over Dany in the show, that neither of them married anyone else, and that they ended geographically close to each other. This leaves a lot of happy headcanons for me. There is foreshadowing for the Stark line to be revived with Bael and the Rose of Winterfell, and Jon fathering a bastard. "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" --> "How many children did Sansa Stark have?"

[teej6]

26 minutes ago, T and A said:

It would be funny, if it weren't so sad, how this forum has become 10 people denying and bargaining about the reveal they got blown in their face 

Funny how I see its about 10 people saying that show and books will align  Most people are somewhere in the middle — they see that some of the characters will have similar endings, others will not. Besides, almost everyone agrees that GRRM’s story will be far superior to what those hacks came up with. In fact, you should check out the video posted by this site’s administrators, and they’ve been working with GRRM pretty closely from the beginning.

Edited May 30, 2019 by teej6

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

My arguments on Sansa and Dany ended up being canon in the show. My arguments on Jonsa did not that's 2 out of 3. Plus, I am happy because Jon chose Sansa over Dany in the show, that neither of them married anyone else, and that they ended geographically close to each other. This leaves a lot of happy headcanons for me. There is foreshadowing for the Stark line to be revived with Bael and the Rose of Winterfell, and Jon fathering a bastard. "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" --> "How many children did Sansa Stark have?"

OMG! keep deluding yourself about Jonsa. As for Dany, people on this site (myself included) saw her turn to dark Dany happening almost a decade ago. No great insight there. In terms of Sansa, I still believe, her show arc is D&D’s fanfic and retcon for all the flak they got for giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline from the books. We’ll just have to wait and see how things will turn out for Sansa in TWOW. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by teej6

[Cas Stark]

I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is going to be that different from my ending," says author George R.R. Martin about the HBO series moving beyond his books. See more at https://www.cbsnews.com/game-of-thrones/

 

It is what it is.  The series has been "extremely" faithful.  He says.  

[teej6]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM has said he'll deal with the age issues as he will. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA/

 

Q: 5-year gap?

A: It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, "Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it's been kinda nice." And Cersei chapters where she thought, "Well, I've had to kill sooo many people the last five years." So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn't told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

And why do you think he means Bran when he says twelve-year old? Bran is currently nine in the books, and Arya is 11. The 12-year old could be Arya? It seems like Arya will more likely be 12 in the next books than Bran. That statement has no correlation to Bran sitting the throne. And if you recall, in the show Bran conquers nothing, Westeros was handed to him because he had the best story.

[divica]

24 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And I’ve never been convinced with any of your arguments. Correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t you also a proponent of Jonsa? I guess that theory is out the window now considering the happenings in the show? Or isn’t it? Well, we are not going to agree, so cheers!

I have no idea how the vale could invade the north…

Like, first sansa is married to tyrion so she won t have support.

Then how can the vale invade the north? by land it shouldn t be possible and I have no knowledge of a vale fleet capable of transporting thousands of soldiers.

Then LF won t declare war on the lannisters by going public with sansa when all his power comes from the lannisters.

And I can actually suport a politcal jonsa if it makes sense.

[Lollygag]

Just now, teej6 said:

And why do you think he means Bran when he says twelve-year old? Bran is currently nine in the books, and Arya is 11. The 12-year old could be Arya? It seems like Arya will more likely be 12 in the next books than Bran. That statement has no correlation to Bran sitting the throne. And if you recall, in the show Bran conquers nothing, Westeros was handed to him because he had the best story.

I said age issues plural, meaning characters plural. Sounds like GRRM will deal with the problems from the arcs of the younger characters as best he can.

On the side, the bolded would be a minority view on your part. Most seem to be under the impression that Bran arranged himself to be on the throne and the most heated debate is what exactly he plans to do with it. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

OMG! keep deluding yourself about Jonsa. As for Dany, people on this site (myself included) saw her turn to dark Dany happening almost a decade ago. No great insight there. In terms of Sansa, I still believe, her show arc is D&D’s fanfic and retcon for all the flak they got for giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline from the books. We’ll just have to wait and see how things will turn out for Sansa in TWOW. 

Using the word deluded is offensive and rude. I'd never call someone that. I've been a reader since 2005 and posting here since 2008 (under a different name). Lots of people were getting Sansa's endgame wrong, thinking she'd be some kind of sex kitten in the Vale, shipping her with abusive older men like Sandor and Tyrion. Which is fine, but it just goes to show that most readers are shippers in some way. Folks just pretend to be above that because of fandom sexism. The story left a lot of good things for Jon and Sansa and I'm excited to see GRRM to have them interact in the books. Jon will kill Dany to save Sansa 's life, and I think the books will be much more explicit about that.

[teej6]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Using the word deluded is offensive and rude. I'd never call someone that. I've been a reader since 2005 and posting here since 2008 (under a different name). Lots of people were getting Sansa's endgame wrong, thinking she'd be some kind of sex kitten in the Vale, shipping her with abusive older men like Sandor and Tyrion. Which is fine, but it just goes to show that most readers are shippers in some way. Folks just pretend to be above that because of fandom sexism. The story left a lot of good things for Jon and Sansa and I'm excited to see GRRM to have them interact in the books. Jon will kill Dany to save Sansa 's life, and I think the books will be much more explicit about that.

I didn’t been to be offensive, and if in using the word “deluded” I offended you, my apologies. I still however stand by my argument that there is absolutely no textual hints to a Jon/Sansa romance. And I’ve seen all the so called evidence provided by the Jonsa fanbase. The Jonsa ship started mainly on the show forum and many old timers on this forum who have been hardcore Sansa fans never subscribed to this theory and still don’t. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I didn’t been to be offensive, and if in using the word “deluded” I offended you, my apologies. I still however stand by my argument that there is absolutely no textual hints to a Jon/Sansa romance. And I’ve seen all the so called evidence provided by the Jonsa fanbase. The Jonsa ship started mainly on the show forum and many old timers on this forum who have been hardcore Sansa fans never subscribed to this theory and still don’t. 

Well they did not predict even a platonic relationship between them which is, as we've seen, important to the plot of the show and the final endgame choices. I'll stick with my jonsa crew because they highlighted these connections. It makes complete sense to have Sansa vs. Dany, and Jon's betrayal of Dany is also foreshadowed.