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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea what that post says to us…

There will be diferences and similarities between the endings?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

He has a gazillion projects he is involved in?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

He doesn t have a date to release winds?

Yes.

in other words, things he has said before, many times. 

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea what that post says to us…

There will be diferences and similarities between the endings?

He has a gazillion projects he is involved in?

He doesn t have a date to release winds?

Yes,.yes and yes. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

in other words, things he has said before, many times. 

That is my point. We don t really learn anything new… Maybe there will be more diferences than grrm initially thought…

These "yes, no, yes, no" are pretty diferent from his previous answers. He could have fodused on how the journey to the end would be diferent and that the main points would be the same, but he didn t...

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1 minute ago, divica said:

That is my point. We don t really learn anything new… Maybe there will be more diferences than grrm initially thought…

These "yes, no, yes, no" are pretty diferent from his previous answers. He could have fodused on how the journey to the end would be diferent and that the main points would be the same, but he didn t...

He made it vague, on purpose. He obviously won't spoil his books. But he can not act as if nothing from the show is from the books. And he can not act as if everything from the show is from the books. Hence, Yes, No, Yes, No....

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1 minute ago, T and A said:

He made it vague, on purpose. He obviously won't spoil his books. But he can not act as if nothing from the show is from the books. And he can not act as if everything from the show is from the books. Hence, Yes, No, Yes, No....

That’s exactly it. Of course he won’t spoil the books, come on. And it’s obvious some things that happened on the show will happen in the books, however differently. 

That’s why he ended the post the way he did.

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

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Why should he? The blog post is clearly not meant as a clue for further plot points because all that could change as he points out in the post itself. He won‘t change stuff to be different than the show so that it is different. But that still might happen for narrative reasons.

The blog post is more athmospheric than clue giving and I like that. Even GRRM has the right to say how he liked the shows last season and he does so in the post. But why would he give specifics?

As for specifics, the very long post a few posts ago has a lot of good points. I do however think that the two big plots will be switched chronically from the show to the books. Meaning we first get the showdown at Kings Landing (and then maybe at Casterly Rock where Cersei fled back to) before we move North for the fight against the Dead (or they move South after having defeated Stannis at Winterfell). This will allow for a sort of Sacrifice plot in the heart of winter or somesuch that the show clearly didn‘t want to do (and why they invited the Night‘s King for that purpose). We‘ll see, hopefully soon :)

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

That is my point. We don t really learn anything new… Maybe there will be more diferences than grrm initially thought…

These "yes, no, yes, no" are pretty diferent from his previous answers. He could have fodused on how the journey to the end would be diferent and that the main points would be the same, but he didn t...

That's what I got from it too. Plenty of differences, and differences interwoven with similarities.

Like I wrote in a different thread, how would you describe the Sansa & Ramsay plot line? Theon's arc is fairly similar, and he was the PoV for that plot line. In vague political terms, the Boltons are still using a Stark bride to consolidate their power. As a reader/watcher, you are still horrified by a young woman being victimized. And if Sansa ends up north with the Vale army, the end result might be the same too. But it's a very different story for Sansa, and a ton of minor characters and political complexities are missing. Can you really say anything about similarities and differences for this plot line without spoiling everything?

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s exactly it. Of course he won’t spoil the books, come on. And it’s obvious some things that happened on the show will happen in the books, however differently. 

That’s why he ended the post the way he did.

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

I think what happens in winds (that I really think is almost done) will define if people will care about his books or not.

First, the story has to be finished in 7 books because he takes too much time to write.

Then he will either have to make people understand and like what we saw on the show or write something that changes completly the fate of a character in the show and the books. And to me that character should be bran. I thought we would have a small number of pov chapters from him, but if grrm wants anyone to believe he can become king he has to rule something in the near future. Otherwise he should just make bran fuse with a weirwood...

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Just for the lols: If you had to guess  how many manuscript pages GRRM has written, what would you guys guess?

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11 minutes ago, Peasant Rebel Leader said:

Even GRRM has the right to say how he liked the shows last season and he does so in the post.

Does he? I must have missed that part.

4 minutes ago, divica said:

I think what happens in winds (that I really think is almost done) will define if people will care about his books or not.

Maybe for some. 

4 minutes ago, divica said:

First, the story has to be finished in 7 books because he takes too much time to write.

The story is finished when the author is happy w/ it. What you or I or anyone think is completely irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, divica said:

Then he will either have to make people understand and like what we saw on the show

Why? 

4 minutes ago, divica said:

or write something that changes completly the fate of a character in the show and the books.

Again, why? You don’t know what’s going to happen in the books. You don’t know which parts will be similar (between show and books) and which won’t. It seems you’re making an awful lot of assumptions here, but the fact is, no one knows any of this but Martin. 

4 minutes ago, divica said:

And to me that character should be bran. I thought we would have a small number of pov chapters from him, but if grrm wants anyone to believe he can become king he has to rule something in the near future. Otherwise he should just make bran fuse with a weirwood...

We don’t even know if Bran’s story will play out similarly in the books. Again, you’re making assumptions based on what the show has done. 

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8 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

That's what I got from it too. Plenty of differences, and differences interwoven with similarities.

Like I wrote in a different thread, how would you describe the Sansa & Ramsay plot line? Theon's arc is fairly similar, and he was the PoV for that plot line. In vague political terms, the Boltons are still using a Stark bride to consolidate their power. As a reader/watcher, you are still horrified by a young woman being victimized. And if Sansa ends up north with the Vale army, the end result might be the same too. But it's a very different story for Sansa, and a ton of minor characters and political complexities are missing. Can you really say anything about similarities and differences for this plot line without spoiling everything?

I think sansa is a huge snowball effect. In the books it makes sense that she becomes an influential person in the vale and that makes the vale help the north. In the show she was influential in the north. So is it very diferent for her character if she ends up in charge of the north or in charge of the vale? Hell I think I would like more to see alayne stone outsmart LF and Harry the heir and robin and end up ruling the vale than see sansa stark ruling the north where we already have enough characters for the job.

And maybe as you are saying this kind of logic can be applyed to several characters...

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe for some. 

The story is finished when the author is happy w/ it. What you or I or anyone think is completely irrelevant.

Why? 

Again, why? You don’t know what’s going to happen in the books. You don’t know which parts will be similar (between show and books) and which won’t. It seems you’re making an awful lot of assumptions here, but the fact is, no one knows any of this but Martin. 

We don’t even know if Bran’s story will play out similarly in the books. Again, you’re making assumptions based on what the show has done. 

I think for a lot of people it is hard to divide the show and the books. The events in both kind of merge. So what happens in winds will be important for the people that didn t like this season. 

Have you seen how many people have lost interest in asoiaf in the last years? If people find out that there will be even more books even more people will lose interest in the series because they will believe that we will never know the end…

And my point is that in the next book we need to have proof that there will be some major diferences or that he can make what happened in the show into a satisfying read. If one of the 2 don t happen manny people will also lose interest...

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Funny, I put that Quote of George here, to state that the Author won't give anything away from the books, nor how much the show differs from the books, he is planing to write. Yet, it leads to a discussion to exactly that ^_^

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

And maybe as you are saying this kind of logic can be applyed to several characters...

It can and it should be, some can offer very interesting results.

As I said on the first page, if you look at Arya's major plot beats in the show, she's either taking over someone else's story (Lady Stoneheart killing the Freys, more likely at a feast thrown by Emmon at Riverrun than at the Twins), or playing the fifth wheel (Sansa doesn't really need her to defeat Littlefinger), or doing something half made up by the show runners (Arya killing the Night King was their idea, and the Night King himself was a show only creation).

I think we have pretty good reasons to dismiss that Arya will be doing any of those things. So then the question becomes, what is Arya going to do? Clearly it is connected to something that was cut from the show. Will Braavos itself play a big enough role to fuel her return in the main story as a Faceless Man agent? That's what I suspect.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

That's what I got from it too. Plenty of differences, and differences interwoven with similarities.

Like I wrote in a different thread, how would you describe the Sansa & Ramsay plot line? Theon's arc is fairly similar, and he was the PoV for that plot line. In vague political terms, the Boltons are still using a Stark bride to consolidate their power. As a reader/watcher, you are still horrified by a young woman being victimized. And if Sansa ends up north with the Vale army, the end result might be the same too. But it's a very different story for Sansa, and a ton of minor characters and political complexities are missing. Can you really say anything about similarities and differences for this plot line without spoiling everything?

Sansa and Ramsay are just a shortcut to Sansa liberating the North with the control of the Vale army, and possibly LF at her side. That's it. The Show has taken many shortcuts over the seasons to get the characters where they wanted them to be (Season 5 and 6 are just that: Jon as King, R+L=J, Cersei as Queen, Daenerys reaching Westeros, Sansa back in the north, the Boltons and Stannis are dead, fAegon and Dorne lose the war, Arya becomes a Faceless Man, Tyrion becomes Dany's Hand, etc...).

This things should all happen in Winds of Winter. All of them. It's the most logical outcome for all the different storylines Martin has. But the Show took another road.

D&D simply decided to simplify some of the arcs, take some shortcuts. And it was done poorly for some characters and better for others.

 

Edited by Ingelheim

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1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

Sansa and Ramsay are just a shortcut to Sansa liberating the North with the control of the Vale army, and possibly LF at her side. That's it. The Show has taken many shortcuts over the seasons to get the characters where they wanted them to be (Season 5 and 6 are just that: Jon as King, R+L=J, Cersei as Queen, Daenerys reaching Westeros, Sansa back in the north, the Boltons and Stannis are dead, etc...)

Not saying she won't take control of the North, but that's hardly a guarantee.

The story in the books is poised to have Stannis beat the Boltons, which means the next step is either a much earlier invasion of the Others (very fitting given the title), or a war between Stannis and the North and/or the Vale.

Cersei as queen is also highly unlikely. In the books she has to deal with Aegon as well as the Faith and the Tyrell, and Euron is not exactly the sex-crazed puppy from the show. He is the kind of man book Cersei has no hope of playing. She'll engineer her own doom by allying herself with him.

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3 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Sansa and Ramsay are just a shortcut to Sansa liberating the North with the control of the Vale army, and possibly LF at her side.

So much has to happen for this to make sense that winterfel would only be taken at the end of this book or in the next one. I can see one of her brothers controling the north and asking the vale for help with food/the others/the IT and sansa making the vale help.

And the north has to prepare to fight the others, it can t spend another book infighting...

8 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

The story in the books is poised to have Stannis beat the Boltons, which means the next step is either a much earlier invasion of the Others (very fitting given the title), or a war between Stannis and the North and/or the Vale.

I think the story is poised to have stannis lose the war. In order to have the story progress stannis has to be defeated and die or join the NW.

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I'm certain all the endgames for the major characters will be the same, although the details may differ. Tyrion will definitely be Hand in the end. Podrick on the Kingsguard? Less sure about that one.

D&D have never cared all that much about Bran as a character, so I have no doubt that King Bran is 100% GRRM. 

I think a lot of the storytelling choices make sense now that we know the character endgames. Sansa's storyline was retooled to focus her on the North instead of the Vale, because she ends up ruling it. Tyrion's negative traits were downplayed in the show because he has a heroic arc and ends up as Hand. Arya's comment about west of Westeros in S6 was indeed a nod to her endgame. And so on.

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18 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I think we have pretty good reasons to dismiss that Arya will be doing any of those things. So then the question becomes, what is Arya going to do? Clearly it is connected to something that was cut from the show. Will Braavos itself play a big enough role to fuel her return in the main story as a Faceless Man agent? That's what I suspect.

With all the buildup involving the Iron Bank, that is entirely possible IMO.

And there's also what GRRM referred to as the Chekov's gun of Nymeria and her ever-growing packs of rampaging wolves in the Riverlands. Arya is developing her skinchanging skills in Braavos, and she

Spoiler

keeps having more and more intense wolf dreams in the Mercy chapters of TWOW. These two things cannot be a coincidence, IMO.

I think that Arya will have a very important role to play in the endgame. It just won't be parkouring out of a tree to slay some "Night King". It'll be better.

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4 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

With all the buildup involving the Iron Bank, that is entirely possible IMO.

And there's also what GRRM referred to as the Chekov's gun of Nymeria and her ever-growing packs of rampaging wolves in the Riverlands. Arya is developing her skinchanging skills in Braavos, and she

  Reveal hidden contents

keeps having more and more intense wolf dreams in the Mercy chapters of TWOW. These two things cannot be a coincidence, IMO.

I think that Arya will have a very important role to play in the endgame. It just won't be parkouring out of a tree to slay some "Night King". It'll be better.

At the moment I think it would be more interesting if she ends stealing whatever the faceless in the citadel is after. It would conect the faceless to the major story and giver her something important to do.

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