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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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On 6/10/2019 at 10:11 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

There's not much hope in this ending. I agree that Martin does not deconstruct tropes, he reconstructs them - however, the point of reconstruction is that the process of getting to the trope still makes sense and is delivered realistically. I think this ending, if it is GRRM's, is quite nihilistic, delivered unrealistically, and confirms the worst of the fantasy tropes that the author claims to critique. Most of these fatal flaws in the story center on Jon, Bran, and Tyrion.

- Jon's ending is SUPER SAD and sets the tone of the entire story IMO. Jon is shuttled off to the Night's Watch, disinherited, and returns to a place where Catelyn wanted him to go. So Cat was right, Jon doesn't belong as a member of the Stark family? Also, it's unclear if the NW even serves a purpose anymore. He could just as well help the wildlings as a king or a lord - after all, aren't people supposed to be integrated rather than ostracized (GRRM is very pro-immigration). I dont think Jon actually liked the NW as an institution, and the "band of brothers" ideal went sour once they turned on him. Jon lives by his own code which is usually correct. I thought he needed the freedom to make his own decisions as ruler. Jon being king would be reconstructed Aragorn and would make perfect sense. Instead we get...

- Bran the tree wizard ascends to the throne, because it was "destined" and he "foresaw" it. We have no idea what Bran's tax policy would be, the ruling experience he has amounts to a small scene when he greets Meera and Jojen. He's implicated so much in the magical aspects of Westeros that it would be like a younger Elrond becoming king at the end of LOTR, out of nowhere.

- Jon's character experiences massive injustice at Tyrion's expense. Jon is a kinslayer and killed his lover. Tyrion did the same. Tyrion gets off scott free, gets to do what he enjoys - playing the game and being Hand. Who knows, he may even be heir to Casterly Rock. Gets to father children. Gets to fuck whores, ect. ect. Jon meanwhile is condemned to celibacy even though he wants a son so badly he involuntarily wargs into his wolf (his Stark side).

The only hopeful thing I see in this ending is, Ghost lives. That just isn't enough to feel hopeful, and it completely misses the LOTR catharsis. 

For what it's worth, not only do I think Jon and Daenerys will be married but I think they will be either ruling jointly as the King and Queen of Westeros for a short period time or Jon will be the sole ruler with Daenerys as his consort queen. In any case, it won't last long.

So I think Bran's tax policy would be Jon's tax policy and/or Daenerys' tax policy. There's the bittersweet ending in that. Jon's and Dany's dreams for the future are realized and their hard work is validated...but neither of them are allowed to see it come to fruition.

It's like doing all the work required to raise a lemon tree only to find that lemons are impossible to eat. Even worse, you are completely unable to make lemonade, lemon cakes or even lemon zest for other dishes out of it. You are free to take advantage of the fragrance of fresh lemons but it won't last for they will soon rot. The best you can hope for is to gaze longingly at the beautiful lemon tree from your window...

Bittersweet.

And yes, the Tyrion ending is horrific, unfair and completely breaks the rules of their own world.

And no, the fact that Ghost lives is not enough to make up for the travesty that is the ending of Jon's (or Dany's for that matter) story.

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On 6/10/2019 at 11:13 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya's ending isn't very hopeful either, because of the track record of all the explorers in F&B who sailed off and caught terrible diseases, disappeared, or died. Queen Nymeria's story is actually more hopeful and inspiring than Arya's. Apparently even Maisie said it didn't make sense to her that Arya just sailed away alone. She couldnt even tell Jon that she would visit??

Also, I'm not being too serious here, but I feel for the Gendry x Arya shippers who were like...what the hell? Gendry is looking so fine and regal in his new get up and Arya rejects him for a cruise? LOL

 

 

There's also the slight logistical problem that Arya doesn't know anything about ships, seas, sailors or navigation for that matter.

I've always felt like the Stark sisters would reverse roles in a way. That Arya would continue being an adventurer and a warrior but that she'd marry a princely/lordly/knightly guy whereas Sansa would end up single and be totally okay with that because she's a high lady...

On 7/1/2019 at 12:44 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

“What will we do tomorrow? What will we do when we are really put to the test? I’m putting all of my characters to the test, to see which ones rise to the occasion and which ones fall.” 

- George R.R. Martin, 2017 (x)

Sansa rose to the occasion by standing against Dany, Dany did not rise in the end. I think Jon failed by thinking he knew Dany when indeed he did not, but he rose to the occasion in the end to do what had to be done. Arya came out of this really well considering where she's at right now in the Mercy chapter - sheesh. I'm so happy she helped people escape from the massacre instead of going after Cersei. Tyrion's line about freeing his brother while Dany slaughtered a city was his best moment (I cheered when he threw the pin on the ground). Theon passed but I really didn't like Bran's line that he was a good person - pure treacle. I also think Arianne will pass the test but the the most vengeful Sand Snakes obviously won't. Jaime ended up being the "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" Byronic hero. He's beyond any test. By what right does the author judge the lion? heh

So basically according to you, everyone except for Dany and Cersei will pass the test?

That's laughable. Especially considering the Tyrion of the books is out here raping slaves, defrauding hundreds (selling someone something you don't own, much less have the slightest access to, is fraud) and evilly gloating over people who he has just killed.

You sound like David Benioff?

On a slightly more serious, I don't think Sansa will be taking a stand against Dany in the books...at least, not like that. I think that is something the jokes we call showrunners took from Arianne.

Arianne is clearly being set up as Daenerys' fiercest adversary. Yes, because unlike Sansa, Arianne has several very good reasons to be dismissive and openly hostile towards Daenerys. None of which have anything to do with how pretty Dany is either. And also unlike Sansa, Arianne is the heir to Dorne (untouched by war and still very wealthy, especially in comparison tot he North) which makes her a much more powerful political opponent.

And this is now...who knows what kind of headstrong-warlord-shit Dany will do to piss Arianne off in Winds and Dream.

So you can get Sam, Arya and Sansa out of your head: the loudest detractor against Dany will be Arianne Martell. Especially if Doran or Mellario dies as a result of Dany's war. Oh yes, some of you seem to have forgotten that Arianne's mother is a slaver who lives in Norvo which isn't that far from from the Dothraki Sea.

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So you can get Sam, Arya and Sansa out of your head: the loudest detractor against Dany will be Arianne Martell. Especially if Doran or Mellario dies as a result of Dany's war. Oh yes, some of you seem to have forgotten that Arianne's mother is a slaver who lives in Norvo which isn't that far from from the Dothraki Sea.

True but I just got lectured by someone else about how the biggest detractor will be Val...so it seems like everyone wants X character to have this coveted role except Sansa. I think Cersei, could play a role too, otherwise, what was the reason GRRM wanted to have Dany/Cersei in parallel chapters. In fact all of the women seeing through Dany's bullshit on various levels would be amusing. Sansa does have a reason to resist Dany because her storyline is about her autonomy and not trusting anyone except her family, including queens who could have power over her.  

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 6 September 2019 at 5:36 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

True but I just got lectured by someone else about how the biggest detractor will be Val...so it seems like everyone wants X character to have this coveted role except Sansa. I think Cersei, could play a role too, otherwise, what was the reason GRRM wanted to have Dany/Cersei in parallel chapters. In fact all of the women seeing through Dany's bullshit on various levels would be amusing. Sansa does have a reason to resist Dany because her storyline is about her autonomy and not trusting anyone except her family, including queens who could have power over her.  

By Season 8, none of the characters in the show bear much relation to their book counterparts, so I'd expect there to be very big differences between the show ending and the book ending.

Tyrion is Richard III in the books.  Martin has already described him as "the villain" out of the main POV characters.  In Season 8, he's a saintly pacifist, spouting D & D's absurd political views, and retconning previous episodes.  He's also had a lobotomy.

Dany is a genocidal maniac, rather than the anti-heroine of the books.  People start plotting against her, despite the fact that they'll lose to Cersei if they kill her.  I presume that Tyrion will persuade Jon to kill her in the books, but Tyrion's motives will be far murkier.

Jon Snow is a waste of space.

Cersei stares out of the window.  I'm sure her final chapters in the books will be far more interesting.

Cunning spymaster Varys is an idiot, who shouts treason at the top of his voice.

It turns out Jaime never cared about the people of Kings Landing, making his backstory and redemption arc pointless.

Arya becomes Elissa Farman.  Martin won't tell that story twice.

Euron is a poor man's Jack  Sparrow, rather than the sinister wizard of the books.

Sam won't be Grand Maester and Bronn won't be Master of Coin, in the books.

Sansa takes over Jeyne Poole's story.  I expect most of her story will be in the Vale in the books.

The "rightful heir" story is a garbled version of the conflict between Dany and FAegon.  Kings Landing will burn, in that fight, before the war against the Others.

 

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:12 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Arianne is clearly being set up as Daenerys' fiercest adversary. Yes, because unlike Sansa, Arianne has several very good reasons to be dismissive and openly hostile towards Daenerys. None of which have anything to do with how pretty Dany is either. And also unlike Sansa, Arianne is the heir to Dorne (untouched by war and still very wealthy, especially in comparison tot he North) which makes her a much more powerful political opponent.

And this is now...who knows what kind of headstrong-warlord-shit Dany will do to piss Arianne off in Winds and Dream.

So you can get Sam, Arya and Sansa out of your head: the loudest detractor against Dany will be Arianne Martell. Especially if Doran or Mellario dies as a result of Dany's war. Oh yes, some of you seem to have forgotten that Arianne's mother is a slaver who lives in Norvo which isn't that far from from the Dothraki Sea

Add to that Quentyn's death. Drinkwater in Dance already had a garbled recollection of events claiming Dany had "laughed at" Quent's proposal, when she did no such thing. Only Barristan or perhaps Arch Yronwood can provide Dorne with a true account of what happened in Slaver's Bay, I would not trust  Drink to not come up with a falsified version to hide his role in going along with the stupid dragon taming attempt.

In the sample chapters of Wind Arianne is already speculating if Dany could have instigated Viserys' death (and Arianne seems sour her bethrotal to Vis did not come to fruition, or that that bethrotal was the reason her father refused other good matches)- so there is very clear build-up to a conflict between Arianne and Dany.

Add to that the mention of Teora Toland's dreams (told to Arianne) about another Dance of Dragons, and it seems quite reasonable to assume it will be fAegon + Arianne in conflict with Dany.

There has to be a point to why Arianne emerged as another POV late in the series.

This does not have to preclude other major characters having issues with Dany as well of course, but this one has the most build-up so far.

Edited by Ser Hedge

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:12 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

On a slightly more serious, I don't think Sansa will be taking a stand against Dany in the books...at least, not like that. I think that is something the jokes we call showrunners took from Arianne.

 

The Northerners' fight for independence is a lot more bloody and drawn out in the books. And it's going to sting a lot more once Dany, whose Dothraki and dragons won't be as mellow in the books, flies in and forces them to kneel/Jon gives up sovereignty in the books. That's more than enough reason for the other Starks and the North to stand up against Dany. That's not even the most important part.

We learn in Arianne's chapter that rumors about Dany killing her own brother to usurp him and then her husband for the same reason are spreading from Essos to Westeros. And now she's being set up to kill Aegon, her own nephew as well as her rightful king. Kingslayers and kinslayers are already loathed in Westeros, so why would the North and the Vale ever be comfortable kneeling to a person who's an oathbreaker extraordinaire? Moreover, how do you think the Starks are going to feel once they find out that their own brother is also Dany's nephew after she's already killed another nephew? It's absolutely going to cause a rift between them even if they were otherwise amenable to each other. Pitting the Starks against Dany, both sides who for the longest time have been considered the heroes, is a very Martin thing to do; especially after pitting Dany against one-dimensional villains for so long. 


 

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Heres what should happen, GRRM should do whatever he wants with the books because there his books and we all just have to wait and see or whatever, it's entirely up to him.

 

As for TV the 8 seasons of game of thrones are done, period, no revisiting no additions, whatever.

 

Instead, what should happen is HBO or whoever should get 4 seasons as in 4 years just focused entirely on Aegon Targaryen and everything all the details of his conquest and all that. He himself, Aegon that is, should be the sole focus and it should revolve entirely around him I just can't think of something that would appeal more to fans honestly than just a ton of stuff involving him.

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On 9/8/2019 at 6:48 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Agree on that ^ above and also the entire plot centered around the climax Jon killing Dany, because his sisters chose him over her, and Dany was a threat to them. 

Dany will win the battle but Aegon will win the war. Killing him will destroy Dany, emotionally as well as politically. Jaime's still loathed 18 years later for killing a mad king. Dany killing a beloved and competent king who's also her nephew after supposedly killing her own brother and husband? She's so fucked.

The show has proven more than anything how important fAegon is to the overall story. 

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7 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

Dany will win the battle but Aegon will win the war. Killing him will destroy Dany, emotionally as well as politically. Jaime's still loathed 18 years later for killing a mad king. Dany killing a beloved and competent king who's also her nephew after supposedly killing her own brother and husband? She's so fucked.

The show has proven more than anything how important fAegon is to the overall story. 

I doubt if he is truly her nephew, but I expect that she will be widely condemned for his and Arianne's deaths.  And, you're right, she'll be blamed for the death of Viserys.  Add to that, slave revolts, religious wars being conducted in her name, and her reputation will be terrifying.  

Arianne's death is foreshadowed by "Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I" IMHO.

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The truth of events, or at least the perspective of the characters themselves in their pov will absolutely count for sh*t once tongues start wagging.

Like it's repeatedly been pointed out in various tones and with a multitude of intents? Dany was screwed once she got them dragons. 

Everyone wants her gone. Even the Red Priests and their following would have the individual gone and trade it for their symbol and icon.

And whatever she does from that point onwards is only going to be twisted in the telling, despite however good, bad, or stupid it might be.

Damn her intentions or ambitions. By the time she sets foot on Westeros, she could be handing out lollies and preaching world peace (let alone in a conquest campaign armed with dragons and dothraki), she'll be seen as the absolute worst of all that westerosi can throw at her.

Squandering potential allies before she even meets them out of stupidity, inexperience or plain out because she is a Targaryen with Dragons TM?

Arianne Martell was always going to be bffs with the 'pretty new girl' who cost her a shot at the throne. Or Dorne. More than once. Right.

Meanwhile, Tyrion 'Don't Look at Me I'm Just Here for the Game' Lannister will joyously cast his shadow spinning the runour mill. 

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I can't feel sorry for Dany after a certain point. It's more of a twist to make readers sorry they ever wanted her to go to Westeros in the first place. 

“it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window.”

I guess she burns down Dragonstone too.

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On 9/7/2019 at 8:24 PM, SeanF said:

By Season 8, none of the characters in the show bear much relation to their book counterparts, so I'd expect there to be very big differences between the show ending and the book ending.

Tyrion is Richard III in the books.  Martin has already described him as "the villain" out of the main POV characters.  In Season 8, he's a saintly pacifist, spouting D & D's absurd political views, and retconning previous episodes.  He's also had a lobotomy.

Dany is a genocidal maniac, rather than the anti-heroine of the books.  People start plotting against her, despite the fact that they'll lose to Cersei if they kill her.  I presume that Tyrion will persuade Jon to kill her in the books, but Tyrion's motives will be far murkier.

Jon Snow is a waste of space.

Cersei stares out of the window.  I'm sure her final chapters in the books will be far more interesting.

Cunning spymaster Varys is an idiot, who shouts treason at the top of his voice.

It turns out Jaime never cared about the people of Kings Landing, making his backstory and redemption arc pointless.

Arya becomes Elissa Farman.  Martin won't tell that story twice.

Euron is a poor man's Jack  Sparrow, rather than the sinister wizard of the books.

Sam won't be Grand Maester and Bronn won't be Master of Coin, in the books.

Sansa takes over Jeyne Poole's story.  I expect most of her story will be in the Vale in the books.

The "rightful heir" story is a garbled version of the conflict between Dany and FAegon.  Kings Landing will burn, in that fight, before the war against the Others.

 

He is an awful character in the books.  He was very poor in the TV show too, but in the books he is just a pointless terrible cardboard cut out villain.

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On 9/13/2019 at 11:50 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

IIt's more of a twist to make readers sorry they ever wanted her to go to Westeros in the first place. 

Westeros return was looking bad for Dany since ADwD. She'll bring dothrakis savages and rapists. She'll be the master of eunuchs slaves. She'll bring R'hllor and red priests, against fAegon, engineered to win Westeros religion support, noble, poor and pious all. She'll bring still more slaves and mouths to feed in a time of winter. At least a part of the Iron Born will be with her too, the other slavers and rapists. Maybe the Pale Mare too.

She never had worthy counselors too. Only fools and betrayer. The only one worthy, Jorah, she fired. She started her own path to betrayal with Kraznys mo Nakloz.

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32 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Westeros return was looking bad for Dany since ADwD. She'll bring dothrakis savages and rapists. She'll be the master of eunuchs slaves. She'll bring R'hllor and red priests, against fAegon, engineered to win Westeros religion support, noble, poor and pious all. She'll bring still more slaves and mouths to feed in a time of winter. At least a part of the Iron Born will be with her too, the other slavers and rapists. Maybe the Pale Mare too.

She never had worthy counselors too. Only fools and betrayer. The only one worthy, Jorah, she fired. She started her own path to betrayal with Kraznys mo Nakloz.

Master Kraznys had it coming.

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28 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Westeros return was looking bad for Dany since ADwD. She'll bring dothrakis savages and rapists. She'll be the master of eunuchs slaves. She'll bring R'hllor and red priests, against fAegon, engineered to win Westeros religion support, noble, poor and pious all. She'll bring still more slaves and mouths to feed in a time of winter. At least a part of the Iron Born will be with her too, the other slavers and rapists. Maybe the Pale Mare too.

She never had worthy counselors too. Only fools and betrayer. The only one worthy, Jorah, she fired. She started her own path to betrayal with Kraznys mo Nakloz.

It also looked bad for her in Book 1 when Robb was declared King and Dany tries to go to war early on with just the Dothraki. I think she's going to screw herself by trying to expand an empire across two continents. As for Kraznys, he definitely played a deceptive role for readers. She deals less and less with stock one-dimensional villains as the story progresses but people still expect it to work like a typical heroine vs. baddies tale. 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It also looked bad for her in Book 1 when Robb was declared King and Dany tries to go to war early on with just the Dothraki. I think she's going to screw herself by trying to expand an empire across two continents. As for Kraznys, he definitely played a deceptive role for readers. She deals less and less with stock one-dimensional villains as the story progresses but people still expect it to work like a typical heroine vs. baddies tale. 

In addition IMHO we also will see Daenerys' mental state become increasingly more paranoid in TWoW. She hallucinated on two occasions in ADwD with the most significant episode IMHO being a "visitation" from Quaithe while Danny was awake in her quarters in Meereen. Quaithe was clearly not really there bodily. IMHO Daenerys will see future "visitations" (hallucinations) from Quaithe warning her about individuals being out to betray her which will over time cause Daenerys to develop increasing paranoia. Paranoia combined with "I am the blood of the dragon" self-righteous grandiosity (even with possibly some good intentions) is a prescription for ultimate disaster. This is likely to be another deception for readers as the warnings from Quaithe will be interpreted by many as being helpful to Daenerys but ultimately will result in paranoia developing and  building up to have the opposite effect.  Just some thoughts I have. 

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1 hour ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

In addition IMHO we also will see Daenerys' mental state become increasingly more paranoid in TWoW. She hallucinated on two occasions in ADwD with the most significant episode IMHO being a "visitation" from Quaithe while Danny was awake in her quarters in Meereen. Quaithe was clearly not really there bodily. IMHO Daenerys will see future "visitations" (hallucinations) from Quaithe warning her about individuals being out to betray her which will over time cause Daenerys to develop increasing paranoia. Paranoia combined with "I am the blood of the dragon" self-righteous grandiosity (even with possibly some good intentions) is a prescription for ultimate disaster. This is likely to be another deception for readers as the warnings from Quaithe will be interpreted by many as being helpful to Daenerys but ultimately will result in paranoia developing and  building up to have the opposite effect.  Just some thoughts I have. 

She might be receiving genuine visions from Qaithe.  Dany is so surrounded by magic and the supernatural that it's impossible to tell what's magic, and what's madness.

Likewise, her hallucinations at the end.  Are they caused by sunstroke and poisoning, or are they a sign of mental illness? 

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8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She might be receiving genuine visions from Qaithe.  Dany is so surrounded by magic and the supernatural that it's impossible to tell what's magic, and what's madness.

Likewise, her hallucinations at the end.  Are they caused by sunstroke and poisoning, or are they a sign of mental illness? 

Perhaps you are right, perhaps not. We shall see. 

 

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On 9/15/2019 at 9:28 PM, SeanF said:

Master Kraznys had it coming.

But too late for poor Kraznys.:D
Was not in his rules of commerce. But the others learnt the new rule: betrayal is fair game with Dany.

21 hours ago, SeanF said:

She might be receiving genuine visions from Qaithe.  Dany is so surrounded by magic and the supernatural that it's impossible to tell what's magic, and what's madness.

Many of her visions already happened. Other could well happen: the cloth dragon, the naked crones...

Her vision of kings with eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade is strangely meeting the god emperors of Yi-Ti: Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst.

Maybe it's turning her mad. Maybe some level of madness is necessary for the visions. But IMO they generally mean something.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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