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Free Northman Reborn

Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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15 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

It's very simple, though.

Stannis is the false Azor Ahai, the king with an iron will who will break before he bends. The Others break through the Wall, and he is convinced it is his destiny and duty to stop them. The northern lords abandon him in fear, he is hopelessly outnumbered, so he burns Shireen for a blessing  from Rh'llor. Nothing happens, but he goes forth anyway, and all that happens is that his paltry forces get added to the armies of the dead. He is destroyed by the corpses of the very Freys he drowned and northmen he slaughtered to take Winterfell.

Perfect ending for him, now Jon finally succumbs to his wounds and is placed on a pyre, but he comes back to life again, and on top of it all he was Robb's chosen heir as well. Boom, everyone pins their hopes on him!

Let's just say that I disagree strongly. Stannis going to battle in a fight he can possibly win and getting defeated would be a far more dignified and suiting manner than him going out as a guy who has lost all touch with reality and effectively committ sucide-by-Others.

 

12 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

They're not nulled by his death, they're nulled by the will.

That particular oath is not for kings to nullify.

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13 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

They're not nulled by his death, they're nulled by the will.

I was speaking about the years long arguments made here that Jon's death will free him from his NW vow. If that happens, the same should happen to Robb's will.

I'm not fussed either way, I don't think Jon's dead.

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41 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

Now it may be that Stannis and Jon can switch places through a really convoluted set of events, but that would make no sense to me and take away from the message on House Baratheon on how infighting and division leads to destruction, just as the Stark kids probably will come into a better position than either Lannister or Baratheon because they kept themselves on the same side and didn't turn on each other, despite both Baratheons and Lannisters having much better shots at becoming the top House than the Starks really had.

It isn t that convoluted. If stannis loses the battle and returns to the Wall nearly alone he will be in a very delicate mental state. If mel convinces him to burn shireen to wake some dragon eggs that they brought from dragonstone and it doesn t work I can total see stannis joining the NW. How can he become king without an heir?

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3 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

Let's just say that I disagree strongly. Stannis going to battle in a fight he can possibly win and getting defeated would be a far more dignified and suiting manner than him going out as a guy who has lost all touch with reality and effectively committ sucide-by-Others.

You are free to disagree, but that is the enemy Melissandre set him out to face. If he's ever going to burn Shireen, and the show basically confirmed it, he will do it to protect the realm from an existential threat, He won't do it just to win a castle for himself, we've already seen that in the Theon preview chapters. If he dies in battle, Massey's orders are to win the throne for Shireen.

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was speaking about the years long arguments made here that Jon's death will free him from his NW vow. If that happens, the same should happen to Robb's will.

I'm not fussed either way, I don't think Jon's dead.

I don't think he's dead either, not yet at least.

I agree that getting out of the Night's Watch on a technicality would be highly questionable, but a king has the power to free him from his vows. We know this from both Stannis, who offered it to Jon, and from Cersei, who promised it to Osney. Since Robb legitimized him and named him his heir in his will, it stands to reason that he freed him of his vows as well, otherwise he'd just be in Maester Aemon's position. So technically speaking he's been free of his vows by northern law since the Red Wedding, he just didn't know it yet.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was speaking about the years long arguments made here that Jon's death will free him from his NW vow. If that happens, the same should happen to Robb's will.

I'm not fussed either way, I don't think Jon's dead.

Why would the will be anuled? 

The vows only say that he will be in the NW until he dies. So if he dies and comes back he kind of completed his vows. 

The will doesn t have clauses...

But I think jon will leave the NW because the northern lords will plead with him to do it and because it is necessary to unite the north. And the fact that the NW is basically over and failed miserably in its mission will also be important. 

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1 minute ago, The Coconut God said:

You are free to disagree, but that is the enemy Melissandre set him out to face. If he's ever going to burn Shireen, and the show basically confirmed it, he will do it to protect the realm from an existential threat, He won't do it just to win a castle for himself, we've already seen that in the Theon preview chapters. If he dies in battle, Massey's orders are to win the throne for Shireen.

I don't think he's dead either, not yet at least.

I agree that getting out of the Night's Watch on a technicality would be highly questionable, but a king has the power to free him from his vows. We know this from both Stannis, who offered it to Jon, and from Cersei, who promised it to Osney. Since Robb legitimized him and named him his heir in his will, it stands to reason that he freed him of his vows as well, otherwise he'd just be in Maester Aemon's position. So technically speaking he's been free of his vows by northern law since the Red Wedding, he just didn't know it yet.

Not the point I  was making. If a dead person can't be held accountable for something they vowed while alive, a will naming a dead person shouldn't be worth the parchment it's written on. 

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3 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

You are free to disagree, but that is the enemy Melissandre set him out to face. If he's ever going to burn Shireen, and the show basically confirmed it, he will do it to protect the realm from an existential threat, He won't do it just to win a castle for himself, we've already seen that in the Theon preview chapters. If he dies in battle, Massey's orders are to win the throne for Shireen.

If he burns shireen it will be out of desperation. It doesn t need to be because of the others… If mel convinces him that his survival is crucial to save the realm and the only way for him to survive is to burn shireen he would do it.

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not the point I  was making. If a dead person can't be held accountable for something they vowed while alive, a will naming a dead person shouldn't be worth the parchment it's written on. 

Isn't the point that Jon's not dead. He died, thus his watch ended ("Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.") But then he was brought back to life and is now alive, thus he might still be Robbs heir?

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2 hours ago, Maia said:

Exactly! That felt like treading water in the show. I don't know about nearly all the soldiers getting killed, but the "ungrateful northeners" stuff could happen here, as I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too. Stannis, OTOH, did come north to win the people's loyalty by helping them and also to defend the realm against the Others, and is currently reaping very little recognition for it - which I don't expect to change that much even once he  removes the Boltons.

The Boltons are going down one way or another. The George has set up an additional purpose for Stannis down the road. Some think he will fight the Others, but that's Jon's purpose. I think Stannis heads south to add fodder to the Second Dance of the Dragons. Since Dumb & Dumber planned to have Jon and Daenerys lead the aarmies against the Others, they didn't need him to the north, and they didn't need him toward the South since the cut the Second Dance of the Dragons. So Bolton defeated Stannis, and Dumb & Dumber had Jon take Stannis place in that respect. The George, though, still has plans for Stannis. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not the point I  was making. If a dead person can't be held accountable for something they vowed while alive, a will naming a dead person shouldn't be worth the parchment it's written on. 

Sure, but we don't have to rely on resurrection to free him of his vows, therefore there is no contradiction.

1 minute ago, divica said:

If he burns shireen it will be out of desperation. It doesn t need to be because of the others… If mel convinces him that his survival is crucial to save the realm and the only way for him to survive is to burn shireen he would do it.

If she hasn't done it already, how will she now? Stannis is prepared to die at Winterfell, and in that situation he wants Shireen to succeed him, we already know this. The only thing that could make him change his mind is if this existential threat of the Great Other actually manifests itself, because then he will have to believe that he is Azor Ahai and it is his duty to save the realm.

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1 minute ago, Martyn Bull said:

Isn't the point that Jon's not dead. He died, thus his watch ended ("Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.") But then he was brought back to life and is now alive, thus he might still be Robbs heir?

If he died and was reanimated, would that be the same as an actual living person? I don't think so, but I don't have the answe; it's at the very least debatable. But in the eyes of everyone, he would be someone who died and was brought back, and not unlike a wight. Why should anyone accept him as king?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Boltons are going down one way or another. The George has set up an additional purpose for Stannis down the road. Some think he will fight the Others, but that's Jon's purpose. I think Stannis heads south to add fodder to the Second Dance of the Dragons. Since Dumb & Dumber planned to have Jon and Daenerys lead the aarmies against the Others, they didn't need him to the north, and they didn't need him toward the South since the cut the Second Dance of the Dragons. So Bolton defeated Stannis, and Dumb & Dumber had Jon take Stannis place in that respect. The George, though, still has plans for Stannis. 

Come on, he will go south with wath army and do what against danny and faegon's armies?

The north won t follow stannis south. He has close to 600 soldiers before these battles...

Stannis simply doesn t have the means to do anything until massey returns...

Edited by divica

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

If he died and was reanimated, would that be the same as an actual living person? I don't think so, but I don't have the answe; it's at the very least debatable. But in the eyes of everyone, he would be someone who died and was brought back, and not unlike a wight. Why should anyone accept him as king?

Being resurrected by fire means that you can't possibly be a wight. Wights are killed by fire. This is why I believe that, if he dies at all, he will come back to life from his own funeral pyre.

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

If he died and was reanimated, would that be the same as an actual living person? I don't think so, but I don't have the answe; it's at the very least debatable. But in the eyes of everyone, he would be someone who died and was brought back, and not unlike a wight. Why should anyone accept him as king?

Yes, you have a valid point there - if we regard him as an animated dead, then the situation is another. My impression is that he is actually brought back to life, but if that proves wrong, well then you have a good argument :-)

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1 minute ago, The Coconut God said:

If she hasn't done it already, how will she now? Stannis is prepared to die at Winterfell, and in that situation he wants Shireen to succeed him, we already know this. The only thing that could make him change his mind is if this existential threat of the Great Other actually manifests itself, because then he will have to believe that he is Azor Ahai and it is his duty to save the realm.

He is far from mel and shireen… what can he do? He can t abandon his troops and escape alone… And stannis won t ever burn shireen without mel influencing him...

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1 minute ago, The Coconut God said:

Being resurrected by fire means that you can't possibly be a wight. Wights are killed by fire. This is why I believe that, if he dies at all, he will come back to life from his own funeral pyre.

I have been calling both types as fire wights and ice wights for years now. And Martin used the exact same in a fairly recent interview, so.

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57 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

I don't see how Jon can become a major player if Stannis isn't defeated and killed by the Boltons. If Stannis takes Winterfell and destroy House Bolton, then if the show's unifyingof Danaerys and Jon will take place, Jon will sit around at the Wall and do nothing while Stannis leads the way either against the Others or Lannisters. If Stannis is defeated however, then suddenly Jon becomes the main mover in the North and we already know that the Boltons, if Stannis is defeated, have their sights on Jon.

Now it may be that Stannis and Jon can switch places through a really convoluted set of events, but that would make no sense to me and take away from the message on House Baratheon on how infighting and division leads to destruction, just as the Stark kids probably will come into a better position than either Lannister or Baratheon because they kept themselves on the same side and didn't turn on each other, despite both Baratheons and Lannisters having much better shots at becoming the top House than the Starks really had.

Jon is on ice, literally and figuratively. Manderly has pledged his support, and Stannis ought to be able to able to lead a force of Northmen south like Creegan did to save their damilies from more mouths to feed. That's where Drogon can melt his face, and Daenerys can take his troops to help her battle Aegon. And then Satin, dressed like Prince Charming can give Jon a kiss and wake the sleeper to battle the Others. Ok, maybe not quite like that, but perhaps you get my point. :)

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2 minutes ago, Martyn Bull said:

Yes, you have a valid point there - if we regard him as an animated dead, then the situation is another. My impression is that he is actually brought back to life, but if that proves wrong, well then you have a good argument :-)

I don't think he's dead at all. So I have no point whatsoever! :P

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

If he died and was reanimated, would that be the same as an actual living person? I don't think so, but I don't have the answe; it's at the very least debatable. But in the eyes of everyone, he would be someone who died and was brought back, and not unlike a wight. Why should anyone accept him as king?

It can go both ways. Either seen as a miracle or as an abomination… But if the old gods are involved the northerns will love it

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon is on ice, literally and figuratively. Manderly has pledged his support, and Stannis ought to be able to able to lead a force of Northmen south like Creegan did to save their damilies from more mouths to feed. That's where Drogon can melt his face, and Daenerys can take his troops to help her battle Aegon. And then Satin, dressed like Prince Charming can give Jon a kiss and wake the sleeper to battle the Others. Ok, maybe not quite like that, but perhaps you get my point. :)

Not seeing any of it happening. After the fiasco with robb and with winter here the northmen won t leave the north.

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