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Free Northman Reborn

Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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1 minute ago, divica said:

He is far from mel and shireen… what can he do? He can t abandon his troops and escape alone… And stannis won t ever burn shireen without mel influencing him...

But why must we have this convoluted mess... Stannis losing, surviving, running away to the wall, somehow growing mad enough to burn Shireen instead of running off to Braavos to get more sellswords... all for the sake of the boring ass Ramsay vs Jon side story? I don't get it. It's just bad.

The story flows smoother, is more satisfying, and serves the characters better thematically if Stannis retakes Winterfell, finally loses his skepticism about his higher destiny and makes the supreme sacrifice for the sake of the realm, only to be crushed by reality in the most tragic way.

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have been calling both types as fire wights and ice wights for years now. And Martin used the exact same in a fairly recent interview, so.

It doesn't matter what you and Martin call him, what matters is how he is seen by his potential followers. Fire wight or not, Beric's resurrections were enough to convert a lot of people down in the south. The crucial difference between them and the ice zombies (at least the ones the Others use) is that they can pass off as real people.

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13 minutes ago, divica said:

Come on, he will go south with wath army and do what against danny and faegon's armies?

The north won t follow stannis south. He has close to 600 soldiers before these battles...

Stannis simply doesn t have the means to do anything until massey returns...

I am putting this in spoilers since we are addressing the unpublished Winds spoiler chapter...

Spoiler

And Massey will return with sellswords procured with funds from the Iron Bank

aboard the ships that Manderly has hidden up the White Knife. With Tommen fighting Aegon, and both of them fighting Euron, and with tales of Daenerys finally reaching Stannis's ear, he's gonna head south. 

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4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

It doesn't matter what you and Martin call him, what matters is how he is seen by his potential followers. Fire wight or not, Beric's resurrections were enough to convert a lot of people down in the south. The crucial difference between them and the ice zombies (at least the ones the Others use) is that they can pass off as real people.

It does matter how the author explains what is going on with the dead that are being brought back to life. LOL

And the point is, they are not who they were. They’re not living beings, they’re reanimated corpses. It’s one thing for Beric’s resurrection to have an effect on the small folk in the Riverlands. Because Beric was already their champion, so to speak. He was sent there to bring the Mountain to justice, or kill him. The Mountain who was ravaging the land and killing small folk left and right. So when Beric dies and is brought back, people see it as a sign, he becomes a saviour in their eyes. 

If Jon Snow, a bastard and, if Marsh gets to say anything, a deserter of the NW is brought back by Red Rahloo, a foreign demon god, people in the north will not be very willing to crown him their king. IMO. 

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2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

But why must we have this convoluted mess... Stannis losing, surviving, running away to the wall, somehow growing mad enough to burn Shireen instead of running off to Braavos to get more sellswords... all for the sake of the boring ass Ramsay vs Jon side story? I don't get it. It's just bad.

The story flows smoother, is more satisfying, and serves the characters better thematically if Stannis retakes Winterfell, finally loses his skepticism about his higher destiny and makes the supreme sacrifice for the sake of the realm, only to be crushed by reality in the most tragic way.

Because stannis taking winterfell is completly useless. The north is divided and he can t unite it without a stark. Wether he has winterfell or not is completly indiferent… Ther northerns won t march south and won t completly join him… 

Then stannis has to return to the Wall to see how the preparations are going to man the Wall. And why would he leave the Wall if massey might arrive at any moment with sellswords? he can t leave the north… if massey returns and he isn t there what would happen? It makes sense that if stannis is defeated he goes hiding in the Wall waiting for massey… It even makes much more sense for stannis to face the other on the Wall than winterfell….

And no matter what you may think of ramsay roose is a very interesting villain. He probably wiil have a backstory and it makes sense to have him vs a stark… Roose vs stannis is kind of useless...

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16 minutes ago, divica said:

Not seeing any of it happening. After the fiasco with robb and with winter here the northmen won t leave the north.

The quote below is going to be eerily similar to the situation in early Winds...

Quote

But these hopes were built on sand, and this period was soon known as the False Dawn. Aegon II had sent men across the narrow sea in search of sellswords, and none knew when or if those would return to avenge their king. In the west, the Red Kraken and his reavers ravished Fair Isle and the western coast. And a terrible, hard winter—first declared by the Conclave in Oldtown in 130 AC, on Maiden’s Day—had taken a firm grip on the realm, and would last for six cruel years.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Stannis is sending men to hire sellswords, a kraken is reaving, and a terrible winter has begun. The paragraph above is followed by the one below...

Quote

Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed.

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Enter Stannis and the Northmen.

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6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am putting this in spoilers since we are addressing the unpublished Winds spoiler chapter...

  Hide contents

And Massey will return with sellswords procured with funds from the Iron Bank

aboard the ships that Manderly has hidden up the White Knife. With Tommen fighting Aegon, and both of them fighting Euron, and with tales of Daenerys finally reaching Stannis's ear, he's gonna head south. 

Massey will return after months. He hasn t even left…  By the time he arrives most of those conflitos will be resolved...

ps it is a sample chapter published in adwd. I don t think we need spoilers...

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1 minute ago, divica said:

Massey will return after months. He hasn t even left…  By the time he arrives most of those conflitos will be resolved...

ps it is a sample chapter published in adwd. I don t think we need spoilers...

No, Barristan I was published in the paperback version of Dance. Theon, Winds was never published. I say no more. :)

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4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The quote below is going to be eerily similar to the situation in early Winds...

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Stannis is sending men to hire sellswords, a kraken is reaving, and a terrible winter has begun. The paragraph above is followed by the one below...

The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

Enter Stannis and the Northmen.

You do know that the north is basically a war zone where more war is going to happen pretty fast right?

I doubt the north will have that many fighting men that they decide to go on a suicide mission south… (remember that the clans were untouched by war so far)

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Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, Barristan I was published in the paperback version of Dance. Theon, Winds was never published. I say no more. :)

No. Theon was published with dance. I am pretty sure.

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

Massey will return after months. He hasn t even left…  By the time he arrives most of those conflitos will be resolved...

ps it is a sample chapter published in adwd. I don t think we need spoilers...

How can you know that? 

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

You do know that the north is basically a war zone where more war is going to happen pretty fast right?

I doubt the north will have that many fighting men that they decide to go on a suicide mission south… (remember that the clans were untouched by war so far)

Perhaps you have the right of it. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

How can you know that? 

Because he hasn t gone to castle black (he left with farya)? because there are no boats for him to take?

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It does matter how the author explains what is going on with the dead that are being brought back to life. LOL

And the point is, they are not who they were. They’re not living beings, they’re reanimated corpses. It’s one thing for Beric’s resurrection to have an effect on the small folk in the Riverlands. Because Beric was already their champion, so to speak. He was sent there to bring the Mountain to justice, or kill him. The Mountain who was ravaging the land and killing small folk left and right. So when Beric dies and is brought back, people see it as a sign, he becomes a saviour in their eyes. 

If Jon Snow, a bastard and, if Marsh gets to say anything, a deserter of the NW is brought back by Red Rahloo, a foreign demon god, people in the north will not be very willing to crown him their king. IMO. 

You assume Jon will be resurrected at Castle Black while Marsh is in charge. I certainly don't.

And yes, fire wights are "not who they were", but that doesn't mean they are enslaved husks either. IIRC, Martin said each time they die something is lost, and they become more single minded, but I assume what remains still comes from who they were. I imagine they are like people coming back after a massive stroke, minus the paralysis.

But in any case, I don't really understand what the point of this argument is. :lol: I'm not married to the idea of Jon dying and coming back to life, I'm perfectly fine with him not dying at all. The points that are important to me are:

  1. He's not dead right now. I think the story would be served better if he's out of commission for a longer time, allowing Stannis to ruin his relationship with the North and possibly lose to the Others all without Jon's intervention. So, to me, he's in a coma at the moment. Whether he recovers or not remains to be seen.
  2. Robb's will is what frees him of his vows and makes him KitN. The resurrection, even if it happens, is just a red herring with regards to the vows, and he doesn't need to fight the Boltons to prove himself as king. He is king by Robb's decree.

That's it. If he doesn't die at all, that works just fine for me.

13 minutes ago, divica said:

Because stannis taking winterfell is completly useless. The north is divided and he can t unite it without a stark. Wether he has winterfell or not is completly indiferent… Ther northerns won t march south and won t completly join him… 

Who says the North needs to be united? The Others are coming, this is when the ball drops. The North needs to be at its lowest. :D

Ditto for the Wall, things are already at the point where they are about to fall apart when we last see the place in Dance. Why fix it when we know it has to break again for the story to move forward? This is a show to books thread, what part of the show gave you the impression that the Others will be held back at the Wall? ;)

17 minutes ago, divica said:

And no matter what you may think of ramsay roose is a very interesting villain. He probably wiil have a backstory and it makes sense to have him vs a stark… Roose vs stannis is kind of useless...

But Roose vs Stannis is already in the final phase! :D If Roose loses, the story can progress to the Others, to the mother fucking stepping stone to the endgame. If Stannis loses, the story goes into another side quest loop. Roose vs Jon, interesting or not, is not necessary for progressing anything. Why not have Jon vs Lady Dustin afterwards? She's interesting too...

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

No. Theon was published with dance. I am pretty sure.

Theon was "published" on the George's website. Barristan was published in the back of the paperback version of Dance. I remember going to Barnes & Noble when it was released to read it. A little proof (cause everything on the Internet is true)... https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18631417/game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter-martin-release-date

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Posted (edited)

I bet in the books, when Dany returns to Mereen and wins the war, the plague rages on, so she gathers up all the sick and burn them to save the rest. A bit of convincing from a red priest and it's done.

Even in the show her return from the grass sea is when she had stopped allowing others to use her mercy against her, but it wasn't made very clear unlike it can be in the books since we aren't in her head.

Edited by NonoNono

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I wonder if it's at all possible that KL is utterly destroyed, and they would move the capitol to the North?  At least if that happened it would make some sense that the dude who is hooked to the weirwood net would be King.  Bran in the South, while the North itself is no longer even part of the Westeros leaves you with a King who has no bannermen or personal retainers or source of income or anything at all?  There has to be a lot more that would go into Bran being king in the books.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

No. Theon was published with dance. I am pretty sure.

 

51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Theon was "published" on the George's website. Barristan was published in the back of the paperback version of Dance. I remember going to Barnes & Noble when it was released to read it. A little proof (cause everything on the Internet is true)... https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18631417/game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter-martin-release-date

Theon was published as the gift chapter in the UK version of Dance instead of the Barristan chapter.

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1 minute ago, Ser Quork said:

 

 

Theon was published as the gift chapter in the UK version of Dance instead of the Barristan chapter.

I knew it!

38 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I wonder if it's at all possible that KL is utterly destroyed, and they would move the capitol to the North?  At least if that happened it would make some sense that the dude who is hooked to the weirwood net would be King.  Bran in the South, while the North itself is no longer even part of the Westeros leaves you with a King who has no bannermen or personal retainers or source of income or anything at all?  There has to be a lot more that would go into Bran being king in the books.

Have you noticed how complicated the new method to choose kings is?

No heir of a great house can be king. Otherwise one of his siblings becames the head of the house and the sons of the king become nobodies.

Then what happens if a king acts to improve the status and power of his familly? who can stop him?

People from diferent famillies that control the kingdoms can t marry otherwise the choosing process doesn t work.

If a war happens how can the king trust in the great lords? As long as the king dies their familly can rise. And it is much easier to have loyalty to a familly instead of a random person that changes from time to time.

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The only story beats I can see being Martin's at this point, are;

Bran - King (but as Bran!), maybe Tyrion as Hand too

Dany's apparent madness

Jon killing Dany

Asha - lady of Iron Islands, but that's an easy one, and Brienne - Kingsguard

In book 6 I figured; Jon, Asha and co would conquer the North, Sansa would gain influence/control over the Vale, then there's the Brotherhood in the Riverlands and they all converge around the Twins. To cut a long story short, by the end the fAegon, Dany, Cersei situation is resolved, Bran plays an integral role in defeating the Others and the Starks take/save the 7 Kingdoms. Bran being the oldest male of the House is named King. After which, Bran legitimises Jon (the Stark name needs to be carried on), he wardens the North and Sansa ends up either Lady of Riverun or the Vale (Warden of the West?). Arya will retain her humanity, grow up (like her Aunt did) - maybe rules Stormlands with Gendry? And I can still see Jorah being the 1000's commander of the Nightswatch. 

Bronn gets nothing, Sam is not Grand Meistser and the major southern Houses are still in tact.

As a rule, I just think the characters arcs will progress, and their final positions will be won/earned - unlike in the show.

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