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Free Northman Reborn

Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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If Bran is leaving that cave, he certainly won't be leaving Winterfell.

King's Landing, the Red Keep and the Iron Throne are either going to get wiped off the face of the earth or they are going to be the new Harrenhal except more visibly cursed. So no point in meeting there.

He'll rule over a broken, snowball Westeros from the Winterfell godswood with the heart tree as his throne.

Sansa will likely be his power broker.

Either it's that or Sansa becomes the Queen of Winter and rules over Westeros with Bran being the Merlin to her King Arthur, serving as a power broker and grandmaster from the Winterfell godswood.

In any case, Bran will outlive everyone, intentionally not seek out someone to succeed him as the next 3EC and then allow himself to die and melt away by becoming the heart tree. He'll be our final POV.

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Bran is leaving that cave, he certainly won't be leaving Winterfell.

King's Landing, the Red Keep and the Iron Throne are either going to get wiped off the face of the earth or they are going to be the new Harrenhal except more visibly cursed. So no point in meeting there.

He'll rule over a broken, snowball Westeros from the Winterfell godswood with the heart tree as his throne.

Sansa will likely be his power broker.

Either it's that or Sansa becomes the Queen of Winter and rules over Westeros with Bran being the Merlin to her King Arthur, serving as a power broker and grandmaster from the Winterfell godswood.

In any case, Bran will outlive everyone, intentionally not seek out someone to succeed him as the next 3EC and then allow himself to die and melt away by becoming the heart tree. He'll be our final POV.

Not very lijkely. Much more likely is that Bran will be the 3E who ends the isolation and comes out to dwell among humans and use his wisdom to rebuild Westeros, and perhaps create a Westeros that's in some forms different and maybe even better than what was before.

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Another thing I wanna say on this idea that Bran being King is incredibly unlikely, is, uh, who's more likely?  If we accept the premise that Dany is dead and Jon is..out of the picture, what other candidates do we have among major characters?  There's Sansa, of course.  She is a woman, clearly would presumably have dynastic ambitions, has no claim as a Stark, and is negligibly older than Bran (who gives a shit about four years).  So the latter two cancel out.  As for the first, Martin's entire fake history has been pretty clear Westeros as a whole is very against it (and that's likely to be exacerbated if Dany turns heel).  And the second, see my previous post.  Only other thing Sansa's got going for her that Bran doesn't vis-a-vis a council is she could accept the new gods on behalf of her mother's side of the family.  Obviously, Bran could do this too considering the two have identical heritage.  Dude doesn't have to present himself as the "high priest" of the old gods.

Who else?  Tyrion?  The guy who admittedly killed his father (blood or no), then - I think many are in agreement here - will likely betray Dany as well?  And, oh yeah, the last time we saw him in KL he told all of their nobles to go fuck themselves?  Doesn't seem likely.  Only one left in terms of main characters is Arya, and no.  So then we get to ancillary characters.  I suppose there are many candidates there, but seems anti-climactic, plus there's just so many I don't wanna go over that.  Thus, I'd contend Bran is actually the most likely to be chosen monarch by any type of council out of the main characters in such a situation -- regardless of the television finale.

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9 hours ago, BlueNightzx said:

let me be more especific then, i don't believe that the physical body that once belonged to Bran will ever leave that cave.

I don't believe that for a second. Even before the show spoiled it. We will see if Winds come out ^_^

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44 minutes ago, DMC said:

Another thing I wanna say on this idea that Bran being King is incredibly unlikely, is, uh, who's more likely? 

Who is more likely than a crippled, impotent child with no blood claim and worships the Old Gods (a minority religion even before the North was given away), believed dead and missing from the world of Westeros politics for the last few years? Pretty much everyone, off the top of my head

  • His own sister. Sansa, if her marriage to Tyrion is annulled, is a young presumable fertile, healthy person. Marrying her to another powerful noble offers an alliance to unite the realm. With her as Queen we presumably don't get the North seceding
  • Edric Storm, an acknowledged bastard of Robert's, he's both an heir of Robert's crown and Dany's Crown via his great, great grandmother. Unlike his show counterpart Gendry, he's a noble on both sides, was raised a noble, follows in Robert and Renly's charisma footsteps and is supported by the Florents of the Reach and the Estermonts of the Stormlands
  • Should Robin Arryn survive childhood he rules the one kingdom relatively unscathed in the last 5 books. Strong army, single, Andal and from one of the most ancient and respected families in Westeros
  • Jon if his birth becomes known, which him riding a Dragon should confirm

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

There's Sansa, of course.  She is a woman, clearly would presumably have dynastic ambitions, has no claim as a Stark, and is negligibly older than Bran (who gives a shit about four years).  So the latter two cancel out.

Except they don't. Sansa is healthy, can presumably marry with another House and create heirs to rule the realm. 

Sansa, presumably by the time of the last book, will have influence in amongst the Vale nobility and Northern nobility. Bran's been in a cave and outside of the Reeds has no real influence among the nobility of Westeros.

 

 

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8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No need for that. So far Rickon is not dead. He is somewhere, likely Skagos. Not in traitor hands.

That WAS the other but too - if Rickon dies??? Then would they need Jon for the Stark name?

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Pretty much everyone, off the top of my head

So your response to my argument is Jon - who I specifically disregarded as the premise - of course he'd be a better candidate than anyone else if available.  Than two ancillary characters - which I specifically mentioned I was not dealing with, but let's look at them:  Edric Storm - sure, has a pretty damn good claim, noble birth on both sides if by ignoble means, seems like a fine young man.  Also barely been in the books thus far, and frankly doesn't promise to play a role in the future.  Would seem anti-climactic and out of nowhere.  And Robin Arryn?  Really.  We'll see if Robin survives to the end.  I'm glad that actor got to get laid a bunch for the next five years due to showing up in the finale, but that doesn't mean he's not still in dire straits last time we saw him, and borderline sane at best.

Then Sansa, which is the one I dealt with in most detail.  Aye, she could "unite" two kingdoms via marriage.  Would the lords of all the other kingdoms want such an arrangement?  I don't see this as a plus.

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sansa, presumably by the time of the last book, will have influence in amongst the Vale nobility and Northern nobility. Bran's been in a cave and outside of the Reeds has no real influence among the nobility of Westeros.

Sansa has yet to reveal herself.  Bran is gaining power that no one else in Westeros possesses.  We'll see how the last two books turn out.

Edited by DMC
clean up, quite a few typos/unclear language

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Posted (edited)

The logic you are using regarding who will be King at the end, even though thought out pretty well, is completely flawed. You all start to think about lineage and legacy. And you continue to play the game as it was played before. After the war against the Others, the continent will be unrecognizable. Probably half of (If not more) the population in Westeros will be dead. Westeros will be devastated by the wars it had to suffer: Five Kings, ,(upcoming) Dance, (upcoming fight for Dawn), (upcoming) fight against Daenerys Army. It will change the whole game. After all of this is set and done, GRRM won't just write a story about who has the most valyrian blood to sit him on that throne (which also will not exist). Bran might be the crucial figure in the fights to come. He might be the first King to be elected, because he will be the most important figure to secure humanities survive. Think for a moment, you really think, GRRM is writing this whole epic fantasy, just to sit at the end and start "well, lets see, he is a quarter Targaryen, he is one eittth Targaryen. Well he is an Andal. No, wait, he is one of the first men". That is not what is going to happen.

Edited by T and A

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I disagree that the Unsullied or anyone else will have the power to exile Jon to the Wall for killing Dany.

I think Jon automatically becomes King after killing Dany. I think after some time, Jon then abdicates as King and takes the Black of his own accord. And at that point the Throne either ceases to exist or it passes to Jon’s heir, either by blood or appointed by some Council. The Show just skipped this part, to reach the same ultimat end point for Jon.

I also think the North’s independence is real, something hinted at throughout the books, and clung to even now by Northern loyalists. It is so out of place in the Show ending that it has to come from George.

But I think it is Bran who is King in the North, with Sansa being a powerful southron political player, as sister to the King in the North - maybe even Lady of Riverrun if Edmure’s line dies out, and perhaps married to Robert Arryn or Willas Tyrell.

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12 minutes ago, T and A said:

The logic you are using regarding who will be King at the end, even though thought out pretty well, is completely flawed. You all start to think about lineage and legacy. And you continue to play the game as it was played before. After the war against the Others, the continent will be unrecognizable. Probably half of (If not more) the population in Westeros will be dead.

Then there is not going to be a Throne. Population loss on that scale will mean there will likely not even by seven kingdoms, but a bunch of much smaller competing kingdoms with hundreds of warlords. 

 

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

So your response to my argument is Jon

No. Not to be rude but I gave quite few options, Jon being the last. But yes, Jon is a better option than Bran.

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Than two ancillary characters - which I specifically mentioned I was not dealing with, but let's look at them:  Edric Storm - sure, has a pretty damn good claim, noble birth on both sides if by ignoble means, seems like a fine young man.  Also barely been in the books thus far, and frankly doesn't promise to play a role in the future.

Why does that matter? The current king, Tommen, is an ancillary character, Aegon IV is pretty much an ancillary character to the series.

You may be a little hung up on the idea of whoever becomes King has to be a primary character. They don't. Edric not being a POV does not rule him out, that is just a weak argument.

If the War of the Roses was a novel Henry VII, the eventual victor, would be an secondary/tertiary character, someone who only comes in the running after many, many others are dealt with.

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

  Would seem anti-climactic and out of nowhere.

It may well seem like that, does not mean its not going to happen.

GRRM seems more likely to do something that makes sense in the world he's created and be anti climatic than go for the unrealistic but satisfying.

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

  And Robin Arryn?  Really.  We'll see if Robin survives to the end. 

No offense, but did you not read what I wrote. I was very clear, if he survives childhood he would be a better option than Bran.

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

I'm glad that actor got to get laid a bunch for the next five years due to showing up in the finale

Ugh, do we really need to talk about minors having sex? Is this really the board for that type of conversation?

 

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16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is so out of place in the Show ending that it has to come from George.

One could (and many have) make the exact same argument about Bran becoming King.  That D&D clearly didn't really care about him, and definitely didn't know what to do with him upon him becoming "the three-eyed raven" suggests the exact same type of argument.

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why does that matter?

Because it's the ending of the books we're discussing.  Honestly, I don't see, like, Arianne becoming Queen, or Edric, or, I dunno, Davos, or anyone else.  If there will still be a monarch over (most of) Westeros - and I agree that that's still very debatable - I expect it to be a major character.  That's just a deep held assumption I have.

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If the War of the Roses was a novel Henry VII, the eventual victor, would be an secondary/tertiary character, someone who only comes in the running after many, many others are dealt with.

That isn't really true.  Henry VII would be a key character in the last book in a War of the Roses series.  Quite strikingly like Aegon VI in ASOIAF at this juncture, for obvious reasons.  If you think Aegon VI is gonna end up the monarch, fair enough, but I disagree.

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

GRRM seems more likely to do something that makes sense in the world he's created and be anti climatic than go for the unrealistic but satisfying.

But does Edric Storm make more sense than Bran for a council to choose?  I'm skeptical.  And certainly Bran is a better choice than Robin Arryn.  Your options aren't the best beyond Jon.

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No offense, but did you not read what I wrote. I was very clear, if he survives childhood he would be a better option than Bran.

No offense, but I was just emphasizing my skepticism that he would survive.  Even he does, no, he's not a better option than Bran.  He is a deranged young man, and we've been given no evidence of any type of competency - in fact quite the opposite.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ugh, do we really need to talk about minors having sex? Is this really the board for that type of conversation?

So sorry to disrupt your delicate sensibilities.  And the actor in question turns 19 in two months.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

One could (and many have) make the exact same argument about Bran becoming King.  That D&D clearly didn't really care about him, and definitely didn't know what to do with him upon him becoming "the three-eyed raven" suggests the exact same type of argument.

Because it's the ending of the books we're discussing.  Honestly, I don't see, like, Arianne becoming Queen, or Edric, or, I dunno, Davos, or anyone else.  If there will still be a monarch over (most of) Westeros - and I agree that that's still very debatable - I expect it to be a major character.  That's just a deep held assumption I have.

That isn't really true.  Henry VII would be a key character in the last book in a War of the Roses series.  Quite strikingly like Aegon VI in ASOIAF at this juncture, for obvious reasons.  If you think Aegon VI is gonna end up the monarch, fair enough, but I disagree.

But does Edric Storm make more sense than Bran for a council to choose?  I'm skeptical.  And certainly Bran is a better choice than Robin Arryn.  Your options aren't the best beyond Jon.

No offense, but I was just emphasizing my skepticism that he would survive.  Even he does, no, he's not a better option than Bran.  He is a deranged young man, and we've been given no evidence of any type of competency - in fact quite the opposite.

So sorry to disrupt your delicate sensibilities.  And the actor in question turns 19 in two months.

The difference is that an independent North is clearly and consistently set up in the books, whereas Bran as King has no logical basis in George’s work.

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The difference is that an independent North is clearly and consistently set up in the books, whereas Bran as King has no logical basis in George’s work.

I've articulated the logic.  You have neglected to respond.

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Your logic is flawed. I have stated why.

Nope you have yet to refute any of my response to your "logic" argument that I posted here.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

Because it's the ending of the books we're discussing.  Honestly, I don't see, like, Arianne becoming Queen, or Edric, or, I dunno, Davos, or anyone else. 

Arianne has a far better chance than Bran. Healthy, distant royal blood, worships the right religion and a marriage to another prominent noble can secure heirs to truly unite the realm.

Davos quite obviously is not, one of the few characters in a worse position than Bran.

Edric squirrelled away in Essos mirrors young Henry VII out of the picture in Europe.

Quote

 

 If there will still be a monarch over (most of) Westeros - and I agree that that's still very debatable - I expect it to be a major character.  That's just a deep held assumption I have.

Why would it matter if its a major character? The series would be over. Dany seems likely to become Queen before the end of the series, it does not matter who is monarch on the last page because the books would be finished.

This need for a happy ever after with a goodie as King is hugely popular in fantasy, so I can see why many expect it, but, to me at least, it does not seem the direction GRRM is heading in.

Quote

That isn't really true.  Henry VII would be a key character in the last book in a War of the Roses series. 

And Edric, Robin or anyone who ends up on the Throne can be in the last book of ASOIF. Its not written yet, so you ruling characters out on that basis seems odd.

Quote

 

Quite strikingly like Aegon VI in ASOIAF at this juncture, for obvious reasons.  If you think Aegon VI is gonna end up the monarch, fair enough, but I disagree.

I think he likely will, if its only briefly.

Quote

But does Edric Storm make more sense than Bran for a council to choose?

Yes.  If its a choice between Bran and Edric its obviously going to be Edric. He's healthy, he can have children, he's an Andal and worships the most popular religion, thus support of the Faith and given he's not talking about magic the Citadel as well.

Not only does Edric make more sense than Bran but in the show even Gendry made more sense than Bran, Gendry's 'story' of pauper to prince is far more popular and powerful than cripple in a cave.

Quote

 

 And certainly Bran is a better choice than Robin Arryn.

Not really true given in the books the North is far, far more spent than the Vale.

Bran not being able to have kids should be the end of the conversation. The most important act of a king is creating heirs, Bran's inability to do this should automatically make him the bottom of the list for potential monarchs.

Quote

Your options aren't the best beyond Jon.

All are superior to the impotent cripple who spent the last few years living in a cave.

 

Quote

So sorry to disrupt your delicate sensibilities.  And the actor in question turns 19 in two months.

Glad you've researched the subject. As long as they are 18 I guess you are free to imagine what you want.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Posted (edited)

If there is no line of inheritance at play, then Sansa married to Tyrion Lannister becomes the power couple of Westeros.

She is sister to the King in the North and likely Lord of Riverun as well, cousin to the Lord of the Vale and cousin to Jon Targaryen last trueborn Targaryen.

Her son by Tyrion would be connected to 4 of the great Houses. So if it comes down to pure politics the son of Tyrion and Sansa could end up King many years from now.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would it matter if its a major character? The series would be over. Dany seems likely to become Queen before the end of the series, it does not matter who is monarch on the last page because the books would be finished.

Well, I just strongly disagree with this premise that it "does not matter who is monarch on the last page."  It matters to me :dunno:

Seems our qualms are as simple as that.

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

This need for a happy ever after with a goodie as King is hugely popular in fantasy, so I can see why many expect it, but, to me at least, it does not seem the direction GRRM is heading in.

So, you mean the guy who persistently brings up Aragorn's tax policy as a criticism of Tolkien?  You don't think he's going to take an avid interest in depicting how the government will function upon the conclusion of his life's work?

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And Edric, Robin or anyone who ends up on the Throne can be in the last book of ASOIF. Its not written yet, so you ruling characters out on that basis seems odd.

I suppose, yes, Edric could come back in ADOS and all of a sudden become Henry VII.  I won't completely rule that out.  But you seem to not realize how damaged Robin is.

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Gendry's 'story' of pauper to prince is far more popular and powerful than cripple in a cave.

Says who?  The Last Hero vs. the guy Arya hung out for awhile with and now is just another minion of Stoneheart?

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Bran not being able to have kids should be the end of the conversation.

Obviously disagree.  In fact, that should be the start rather than the end.  Ending dynastic marriages is, empirically, something the realm should do if they had any sense.  Let's look at major family unions via marriage since around Robert's Rebellion:

  • Targaryen/Martell
  • Stark/Tully
  • Arryn/Tully
  • Baratheon/Lannister
  • [..next generation]
  • Baratheon/Florent
  • Baratheon/Tyrell
  • Stark/Westerling
  • Baratheon (Lannister)/Tyrell [repeat]

How many of those worked well, for any parties involved?  None, I'd say, although I guess the Westerlings and Tyrells are alright at the moment.  The reticence to the concept that the Lords might be like, "hey, let's stop doing this shit considering it keeps on starting wars" is baffling to me.  If the "logic" of Martin's works have shown anything, it's that dynastic marriages breed conflict.

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Glad you've researched the subject. As long as they are 18 I guess you are free to imagine what you want.

Jeebus get the fuck over this morally superior bullshit.  It was a comment referring to his newfound internet popularity.

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Her son by Tyrion would be connected to 4 of the great Houses. So if it comes down to pure politics the son of Tyrion and Sansa could end up King many years from now.

So you think Tyrion and Sansa will actually end up together?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I just strongly disagree with this premise that it "does not matter who is monarch on the last page."  It matters to me :dunno:

Seems our qualms are as simple as that.

So, you mean the guy who persistently brings up Aragorn's tax policy as a criticism of Tolkien?  You don't think he's going to take an avid interest in depicting how the government will function upon the conclusion of his life's work?

I suppose, yes, Edric could come back in ADOS and all of a sudden become Henry VII.  I won't completely rule that out.  But you seem to not realize how damaged Robin is.

Says who?  The Last Hero vs. the guy Arya hung out for awhile with and now is just another minion of Stoneheart?

Obviously disagree.  In fact, that should be the start rather than the end.  Ending dynastic marriages is, empirically, something the realm should do if they had any sense.  Let's look at major family unions via marriage since around Robert's Rebellion:

  • Targaryen/Martell
  • Stark/Tully
  • Arryn/Tully
  • Baratheon/Lannister
  • [..next generation]
  • Baratheon/Florent
  • Baratheon/Tyrell
  • Stark/Westerling
  • Baratheon (Lannister)/Tyrell [repeat]

How many of those worked well, for any parties involved?  None, I'd say, although I guess the Westerlings and Tyrells are alright at the moment.  The reticence to the concept that the Lords might be like, "hey, let's stop doing this shit considering it keeps on starting wars" is baffling to me.  If the "logic" of Martin's works have shown anything, it's that dynastic marriages breed conflict.

Jeebus get the fuck over this morally superior bullshit.  It was a comment referring to his newfound internet popularity.

So you think Tyrion and Sansa will actually end up together?

Just running through scenarios. Given Martin’s love for the character of Tyrion I could imagine such an outcome, but I could as easily see her married to Robert Arryn or even to no one. 

Edit

Isn’t a kind of union between Lancaster and York kind of how the Hundred Years War ultimately ends? I’m not that close to it, however, so could be wrong.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just running through scenarios. Given Martin’s love for the character of Tyrion I could imagine such an outcome, but I could as easily see her married to Robert Arryn or even to no one. 

Well sure, it's definitely a possible scenario.  I think Sansa will be in a position to refuse it and frankly I anticipate Tyrion will be happy to annul it.  And as I've stated, I think it's hilarious you guys are like "Bran? Man that's crazy!"  While in the same breath are willing to entertain Robin as someone that could hold any influence.

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