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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

How is it stupid? Its a valid interpretation. And i’m very much open to the possibility i’m wrong and he does in fact mean King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

That Isaac just said King does leave open the possibility of KitN. I see nothing stupid about acknowledging that

The show made Sansa Queen in the North, they didn't leave it open and unresolved, they gave a definitive end point, Sansa is Queen in the North and Bran is King of Westeros.  I don't see any wiggle room for other interpretations.

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31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show made Sansa Queen in the North, they didn't leave it open and unresolved, they gave a definitive end point, Sansa is Queen in the North and Bran is King of Westeros.  I don't see any wiggle room for other interpretations.

If GRRM does either of those, I'm sure it'll make sense within his narrative.  I don't see it at the moment, and I don't believe either will happen in the books because in the show 1) Sansa was ripped out of her own narrative and shoved in Theon's/Stannis's/Jon's storylines and 2) they did nothing sensible with Bran that would make him monarch material.  There's loads of wiggle room that I can see - a clear ocean of it.  Yes, I believe Sansa will be a player of the game of thrones, but in and from the Vale, unless GRRM shows me otherwise.

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If Bran, or someone else, becomes king of Westeros without the North, it's because the North won't really exist anymore as an organized realm. The war with the Others could potentially result in a new demarcation line, at the Neck. Bran completes what the ancient greenseers attempted, separating the North from the rest of Westeros.

Edited by Corvinus

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Both the showrunners and GRRM have said repeatedly that the endings for the main characters are the same, the only way to get to the idea that the endings would be vastly different is to take random sentences out of their original context.  The showrunners said they loved George's ending, they said the journey would be different but would end the same, George said GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations and that the endings would be 'mostly' the same except for secondary characters.  This seems definitive to me unless wishful thinking is involved to maintain a cherished theory from the books.  But, since I don't expect that he will finish the series people will be able to keep hope alive forever.  LOL.

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Both the showrunners and GRRM have said repeatedly that the endings for the main characters are the same, the only way to get to the idea that the endings would be vastly different is to take random sentences out of their original context.  The showrunners said they loved George's ending, they said the journey would be different but would end the same, George said GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations and that the endings would be 'mostly' the same except for secondary characters.  This seems definitive to me unless wishful thinking is involved to maintain a cherished theory from the books.  But, since I don't expect that he will finish the series people will be able to keep hope alive forever.  LOL.

The best answer on this whole topic. But you won't change the minds of people here.

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50 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I'm going to disagree with a lot of ppl here and say that the only similarity is that the WW's will be defeated. Nothing else will be the same.

I would not even agree with that. Wars were most of the time won by the wrong people. The day of the defeat the starting day of the next war. The answers of people like Tywin, Cersei, Ramsay or Daenerys to any of their enemies. I believe the Others, in books mind you, are sent by the gods. To force men to a more virtuous path. A good old war is not the answer to the LN. Otherwise Rhaegar would have strengthened, not weakened, the kingdom.

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2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Wellthis isnt D&D telling us, it is Isaac relaying information he received while shooting.

And he says King, not of where though

I'm aware of that, both sentences.

If GRRM just said "king", but not where. And then D&D made him king of 6 kingdoms, but not the North. I hesitate between stupidity and lying.

I rather believe D&D keep to their promise, not telling what is GRRM's and what is theirs. Everything they did is GRRM's, whether they know it's true or not. The only way to keep their promise.

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5 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Well there will be the Hodor sacrifice that will be a big help.  I imagine coldhands or maybe Benjen or a combination of the two will help with the journey.  Also Book Bran will probably have more powers and maybe warg some northern animals to help along the way.  More so then ravens scouting which is pretty much the extent of what Bran did.

 

Ha I mean character wise, not logistically. The show made it look like awful fanfic with Tyrion just nominating Bran and nobody speaking up despite Dorne and the Iron Islands being present. How does Bran go from being thought dead by the North, living in a cave to sitting on the Iron Throne ruling Westeros. He was mostly useless in the show but they just sat him on the throne. It could take 3-4 more books to tie up this story into that ending. 

 

3 hours ago, T and A said:

Come on, that is just plain stupid. Now people are just forcing it...

It was stupid to even think that it was D&D's idea to put Bran on the throne. They hated that character. 

But now some people just sound desperate, which looks pretty sad. 

 

Yeah a lot of denial here but thats ok, we were given a hamfisted ending with very poor execution, its only right to question what will be in the books and what won't be. Issac has just confirmed it as George's idea. It's the same with Shireen being burned. We know it happens way later in the story and under much different circumstances. 

 

If D & D were doing their own ending there is no way Bran would have survived the White Walker encounter at the cave. It makes a lot of sense why the books have taken so long. How does George getting Dany from Essos to Westeros with her going mad and dying at the end. That alone is a whole book. No add in Bran becoming King. The Long Night. The list grows and grows. 

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10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I remember D&D saying they would not tell what is right from GRRM and what is their plot.

None the less, I still don't believe Bran will leave the cave. I still think it shitty to have him king of the south kingdoms.
I will not believe it until GRRM says it squarely and how and why.

Sorry, it's too late. Isaac already spilled the beans, so that's that. Just because D&D made no press release doesn't mean they didn't convey the truth to the actor playing the role. To pretend this didn't happen requires that somebody lied, which is an ostrich-sticks-head-in-sand denial of reality. 

The old forever-stuck-in-a-cave-as-a-tree chestnut made absolutely no narrative sense whatsoever for the story's leading POV character. You always knew his destiny would be tied up on an oversight role. When you add to that all the lessons Martin has been teaching about how awful hotheaded rulers are, it makes even more sense that Bran will get that job since he's the best equipped for it.

I'm glad all the sceptical flat-earth nonsense about Bran's destiny has finally been proven wrong once and for all. 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Both the showrunners and GRRM have said repeatedly that the endings for the main characters are the same, the only way to get to the idea that the endings would be vastly different is to take random sentences out of their original context.  The showrunners said they loved George's ending, they said the journey would be different but would end the same, George said GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations and that the endings would be 'mostly' the same except for secondary characters.  This seems definitive to me unless wishful thinking is involved to maintain a cherished theory from the books.  But, since I don't expect that he will finish the series people will be able to keep hope alive forever.  LOL.

Thank you! At this point disputing the actual endpoints for the main characters is just wishful thinking (particularly these resurrection fanfics made up by Dany fans). This is what George plans for us all. But since he's never going to finish the books the wishful thinking will go on forever. Can't wait!

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6 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Sorry, it's too late. Isaac already spilled the beans, so that's that. Just because D&D made no press release doesn't mean they didn't convey the truth to the actor playing the role. To pretend this didn't happen requires that somebody lied, which is an ostrich-sticks-head-in-sand denial of reality.

No, read my previous post. Just the last.

Bran is akin to an alien debarking from his ship and telling: "since you are unable to govern yourself, I've decided to be your king and your god." And everyone, but the North, saying: "OK, fine, go with it."

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6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No, read my previous post. Just the last.

Bran is akin to an alien debarking from his ship and telling: "since you are unable to govern yourself, I've decided to be your king and your god." And everyone, but the North, saying: "OK, fine, go with it."

Believe whatever makes you happy.

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Riverlands were as sick of the Wolves as they were the Lions in the books.  

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=wolves+lions

 Robb's reign as King is not something that is going to be remembered fondly in the Riverlands.

Good point. Throw in a real direwolf leading a big pack of wolves ravaging the country-side, with a good number of the surviving smallfolk having decamped to KL and you are not taking about a happy place. Broken men still abound and the BwB are less into helping smallfolk and more into hunting Freys.

There is probably more tragedy planned for winter, leaving the region probably quite empty at the start of ADOS. After the Dance, a lot of Cregan's Northmen married women from the Riverlands to re-populate the region. Something like that is probably required again and the future of the region will be shaped by whoever is in a position to re-populate the region. If it's Northmen that can only be because they have left their homeland fleeing from the Others.

In terms of the Lords, the Freys are probably exterminated in revenge for the RW. The Lannister-appointees with tenous claims probably will not have a very high chance of survival, in any case a lot of chaos ahead.

I agree with you it's going to be less about wills. It should be more about who comes to save them.

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Just some very rambly thoughts and fun crackpots which the show might point to... 

Bran—I think he’ll leave the cave because I don’t know how you even write 2 more books of his POV stuck in a tree in a cave, and all while he's becoming increasingly important. The King thing can only come about from events arising from the fight with the Others. There will be war, but it's not theme consistent that the Others be defeated by war. This is where I think Bran's knowledge comes into play. Because the Wall was built with Other magic, I'm thinking that some compromise is reached as is implied by the past. The Others would have to get far into the South for all of Westeros to see Bran's abilities, so I'm thinking that everything will come to a head at Bran the Builder's other place: (Winter) Storm's End. King might be a rough ending. Maybe he ends up more as an oracle or some religious authority that’s as strong as a king. Bran was always Catelyn’s favorite and Catelyn is very tied to the Game of Thrones, so maybe this is Stoneheart's important role and the basis of GRRM's upset that she wasn't included. She pushed Sansa to the throne, but ends up putting Bran there instead. Beric sat a weirwood throne, and as Beric created Cat and Bran's all about the weirwoods - yep, makes sense to me. Is Bran/3EC good or bad? Probably grey like the rest. The old gods sound nice and naturey - until you hear the entrails hanging from the trees stories and see Whitetree. The Seven with their crystals and rainbows, and mother save us sounds lovely. But then you get the High Sparrow. R'hllor is against the Others and night. Good. But there's also that burning people alive thing. So both positive and negative aspects. 

Sansa—Queen is a boring end but maybe it’ll happen. But she’s enjoying her time as a bastard and I can’t see her wanting it. She just wants to go home and hasn’t thought much beyond that. I’m more certain that Sansa finally gets some autonomy (Queen of her own world?) and that’s more consistent with her arc at least right now. Don't see her becoming LF junior at 14 years old with no experience. The Starks manage the game well on offense, but it's defense where they falter every time. Guessing Sansa's main role will be to recognize defensive threats which the Starks are just terrible at. 

Arya—She was always running around and exploring so I can see her ending up wandering. I don’t see her learning Terminator ninja moves or captaining a ship at her age, though. Think I recall GRRM kind of joking about a series of stories about Arya solving mysteries in Braavos or something, and that sounds more consistent with book Arya's age. If she does sail, maybe it'll be part of a FM thing? Reminds me of how she was the center of attention on that ship to Braavos. 

Rickon—dead somehow. Some crazy dark things around this kid and it’s not that Cool! Badass! crap.

Jon— He won’t be a brooding, mouth-breathing, I dun want it, statue-staring idiot. Jon really wants Winterfell. Badly. I’m not sure he’ll want the IT because he’s a homebody, but if he thinks he can use the IT to fight the Others, he might make a play for it. If book Jon's sick of politics, it'll be from being impatient with it like he was in ASOS and ADWD. He'll just want to get things done, and will see politics as bs which is just slowing things down. Dany doesn't get to Westeros until the end of TWOW or early ADOS, so any Jon/Dany thing will only have one book which will be packed with TONS of other stuff, so it seems more likely that Jonerys might be pulled from book Aegon, especially since the course of Jonerys was directed by Westerosi Jesus and not book Jon who are vastly different characters. Jon going back to the NW only makes sense to me if he doesn't die and the Others aren't defeated so much as a truce is reached so he goes back to keep his oath and decides that he's too impatient with the bs of politics to want to deal with it. The show thing that Jon's really a wildling at heart doesn't work for me at this point as he didn't enjoy being a wildling and certainly doesn't miss that life, so if that's gonna happen, it makes more sense that he just gets tired of the bs and comes to realize that his being a bastard wasn't so bad after all. Becoming King Beyond the Wall explains why Mance is such a strong parallel for Rhaegar as Jon is Rhaegar's son and he becomes Mance's successor, but that might be another different form of King as things are going to change significantly.

Dany—to be the Others equivalent for fire, Dany needs to get into some serious magic stuff. Maybe Doom of Valyria sized stuff? I really don’t want to read a truly mad POV, so I’m hoping we get some more interesting version of Dany going off the rails than just Hitler Dany. The Dothraki are all about raiding and killing and they wear bells in their hair, so the bells might be from JonCon, or maybe they're about Dany deciding to go full Dothraki instead of just wacko.  

Tyrion—I’m really not sure at all. He can be really good and also really awful. I think it’s important that Jon, Sansa, Bran and Stoneheart (Cat realized that she falsely accused Tyrion and Jaime recalls that Cat was putting her trust in Tyrion returning her kids, not Jaime) all have a positive relationship with Tyrion, so there will be some important interaction with the Starks happening. Being Hand of the King...eh...boring, but it fits him if Tyrion finds the solutions to things (fixing the drains of Casterly Rock) which would be very in line with book Tyrion. In the show, they elected Bran based on knowledge rather heredity, Arya sails for Planetos America and they dressed Bran in Renaissance-inspired clothing which means Westeros' thousands-years long Middle Ages stagnation is coming to an end. 

Cersei—some sort of crash and burn. Her arc has been increasing associated with the magical, so I'm guessing it'll be more related to that. Crackpot for the Valonqar: Cersei has Qyburn bring back dead Tommen and he kills Cersei. Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei get 100% of their genes from Tywin and Joanna. Because of twincest, Joff, Myrcella and Tommen also get 100% of their genes from Tywin and Joanna, making Jaime's and Cersei's kids also their genetic younger siblings. Cersei's twincest creates what kills her. The Fall of the House of Usher and her house of cards falling on her head sounds very GRRM to me. 

Jaime—Book Jaime having show Jaime's arc is the biggest red flag for me and it's by far the most difficult to reconcile with the show counterpart. If he dies with Cersei, it’ll be mercy, he’ll be trying to save people, or he’ll recognize that Cersei is hopelessly mentally ill and he has sympathy for her. By the time he becomes a POV, that mental break from her is already happening and the symbolism and foreshadowing of the split is right screaming. In the books, Jaime also realizes that Cersei has no real feelings for him and was terrible to him. I like the idea of only a partial redemption arc as Jaime admires honor and what's considered good guy traits, but those things are not exactly natural to him. When he goes back to KL after hearing Joff died, he thinks he never cared for any of his kids, but also that he wants his own kids at the same time. Understandable that Jaime feels nothing for Joff, but how does he not care about Tommen and Myrcella who are sweethearts? It never hits Jaime how odd it is to admit not feeling anything for his kids in conjunction with expressing the desire for kids of his own. Makes sense to me for Jaime to conclude that he's not the guy who throws kids out the window and lets awful things happen, but he's not exactly the stock good guy either. But just don't see him even entertaining becoming romantic with Cersei again unless she really, really changes. 

Brienne - feel like her role is going to be important, just don't know what it would be. The KG thing might mean she plays a very important role in who becomes king. Makes sense as she's linked to the Kingslayer and she's sworn to Cat's kids with Bran being her fave.

In the books, the KG are overwhelmingly linked to snow to the Targ's fire. The KG were supposed to be the most honorable knights in the realm making it difficult for a King to ask them to do anything dishonorable as it forced them to break knightly vows. It looks like the KG was intended to be protection for the King, but also a checks and balances. The still hidden KG oath along with the parallels to the NW make me think the KG has lost their purpose along side the NW and Jaime's Kingslaying was actually him being true to the original intent of the KG like Jon is being true to the original intent of the NW. The NW (I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn) protects from Ice and the snowy, icy-honored KG protects from Fire. Ice runs amok with the decay of the NW and fire runs amok with the breakdown of the KG. I'm not thinking Jon's the one who addresses Dany directly, guessing it'll be a character tied to the KG like Jaime, Brienne or the Hound. Unless Jon swears to Bran becoming a type of KG? If Bran becomes some sort of religious king, that would make sense as the only thing which makes it easy for Jon to reject Winterfell was the condition of burning the hearttree. Or perhaps we get a role swap where Jaime's dreams point to him taking care of ice and Jon in turn takes care of fire further tying the NW and the KG in common goals to just reign in extremes. 

The Counsel ending makes sense as in GRRM's world, the role of the Counsel is highly elevated whereas in most books and movies it's minimized or non-existent. There's also a pattern of absentee monarchs which allows the Counsel to rule in it's own right for the most part. Aegon the Conqueror was a hand's-off sort, as was Robert, Joff, and Tommen. This would fit Bran as an absentee oracle king. 

There's also the triad trend. The dragon has three heads. The Triarchs of Essos. Varys' sellsword riddle where he must choose to follow the King, the Gods, or money. When Tyrion arrives in KL, Varys tells him a joke he overheard. Someone went to toast the King, and the reply was that we'd need three cups for that as Joff was King, but a minor, Cersei was regent (Tyrion compares her to a goddess and much of her power comes from seduction which is sort of god-like: cue mention of the Summer Islanders seeing sex as a form of higher worship) and Tyrion who rules in Tywin's stead taking the money role. The three heads thing is also echoed in Aegon being a hands-off leader, Visenya being a strategizer and Rhaenys being a charmer/diplomat. Dany, Jon and Aegon, Robert, Stannis and Renly, Baratheon, Stark and Lannister, Jon, Sansa and Arya and perhaps Bran, Sansa and Arya all fit this pattern. The Lannister kids also fit this pattern with Cersei being a hands-off (incompetent) ruler, Jaime being a charmer/diplomat and Tyrion being a strategizer. 

The Hound - the top of my list to stop Dany because of his issues with the KG being hypocrites, liars, etc. It points to the Hound, like Jaime, recognizing the true, lost purpose of the KG. He'd also have a vested interest in not seeing the world consumed by fire. It would bring his arc full circle if he was sworn to Joff but abandoned him to fire but if he stayed by Dany to end her fire. I don't see Cleganbowl in the books. It doesn't jive with the Quiet Isle and giving up his Hound helm. And they're books. How good can a book fight be? It also means nothing if that's not even Gregor anymore and the books strongly hint that Gregor's head was sent to Dorne. My personal crackpot which was hinted at in the show but was impossible to carry out in full: He has Joff's head. We never saw what was in Joff's armor and Renly's empty armor was repeatedly brought up at the time. It also helps explain the Hound as a symbolic direwolf/Stark. In the show, the hinge which ends Dany is her being a threat to Sansa and Arya. Jon is especially attached to his sisters, but big Jon parallel the Hound is also very attached to both sisters. 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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Counter to the argument that GoT's ending will match GRRM's ending is the fact that GRRM's writing style makes things too unpredictable. He'll go the route of Dany going mad, and Bran becoming king only if stuff works out as he's writing the story, otherwise he'll change it to whatever works best.

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20 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bran—I think he’ll leave the cave because I don’t know how you even write 2 more books of his POV stuck in a tree in a cave,

Bran can see everything from the cave. Could be GRRM POV in places we would not see. Fill the books with images and prophecies. Probably could change a few things too. To be in the cave is not limiting him. It is expanding him.

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Just now, BalerionTheCat said:

Bran can see everything from the cave. Could be GRRM POV in places we would not see. Fill the books with images and prophecies. Probably could change a few things too. To be in the cave is not limiting him. It is expanding him. 

Yeah, I still disagree. The rest of Bran's POV chapters - almost in their entirety - being images and prophesies? How does he even interact? 

And unless GRRM distances himself from when he said the endings were going to be very close and that was a very hard statement from him, I'm sticking with that. He's not king in that cave. 

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I still disagree. The rest of Bran's POV chapters - almost in their entirety - being images and prophesies? How does he even interact? 

And unless GRRM distances himself from when he said the endings were going to be very close and that was a very hard statement from him, I'm sticking with that. He's not king in that cave.  

It makes sense to have bran have visions in that cave about the past or events that are happening now and then talking with the cotf and bloodraven about sending dreams to the right people so that they can defeat the others and help his familly survive.

THAT is the whole point of him becoming the 3ec! Learning and using the powers of the 3ec. And he can do that much better inside the cave than anywhere else.

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