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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot


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Just now, divica said:

It makes sense to have bran have visions in that cave about the past or events that are happening now and then talking with the cotf and bloodraven about sending dreams to the right people so that they can defeat the others and help his familly survive.

THAT is the whole point of him becoming the 3ec! Learning and using the powers of the 3ec. And he can do that much better inside the cave than anywhere else.

That doesn't explain the king part. Isaac said that came straight from GRRM. 

And I understand the logic. The problem is how you actually write that over two books worth of POV chapters. 

Edited by Lollygag
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Just now, Lollygag said:

That doesn't explain the king part. Isaac said that came straight from GRRM. 

The greenseers are the leaders of the cotf… They might even be the leaders of the hardcore followers of the old gods… Like an independent faction that the wildlings go to when they want to setle disputes… 

So he is kind of a king...

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Just now, divica said:

The greenseers are the leaders of the cotf… They might even be the leaders of the hardcore followers of the old gods… Like an independent faction that the wildlings go to when they want to setle disputes… 

So he is kind of a king...

You could explain anyone away as being king/queen of all kinds of things with that reasoning. Harry Strickland is kind of king of the Golden Company. LF is kind of king of prostitutes, Shae was kind of Queen because of her relationship with Tyrion and his power as Hand...

I think there's some leeway for interpretation of King/Queen roles, but it's got to be something more substantial than that. 

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6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You could explain anyone away as being king/queen of all kinds of things with that reasoning. Harry Strickland is kind of king of the Golden Company. LF is kind of king of prostitutes, Shae was kind of Queen because of her relationship with Tyrion and his power as Hand...

I think there's some leeway for interpretation of King/Queen roles, but it's got to be something more substantial than that. 

Not really. Bran by being a greenseer becomes the leader of a group of people… Isn t that the definition of a king?

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

Not really. Bran by being a greenseer becomes the leader of a group of people… Isn t that the definition of a king?

You missed my point. That's not in keeping with GRRM's statement that the book endings will be really close to the show endings. Come on. 

If you want to stretch things out to the point it's meaningless in order to convince yourself that whatever else you want will still happen, go ahead. I'm not doing that so long as GRRM is refusing to backtrack his statement. Period. If you have a problem with the ending, I'm not the one you need to take it up with. 

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You missed my point. That's not in keeping with GRRM's statement that the book endings will be really close to the show endings. Come on. 

If you want to stretch things out to the point it's meaningless in order to convince yourself that whatever else you want will still happen, go ahead. I'm not doing that so long as GRRM is refusing to backtrack his statement. Period. If you have a problem with the ending, I'm not the one you need to take it up with. 

The point was proving that he could be king without being on the IT...

But I agree that who ends in the IT seems to be too important to change. Unless grrm changes his mind with time, sees people's reactions or when he is actually writting the story decides it doesn t fit like the 5 year gap...

And don t Forget that despite still having 2 books left if winds is similar to season 6 and beguining of season 7 of the show then grrm will have the same problems as the show did to sell us this ending. Besides the fact that a lot of people don t seem to like it...

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5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show made Sansa Queen in the North, they didn't leave it open and unresolved, they gave a definitive end point, Sansa is Queen in the North and Bran is King of Westeros.  I don't see any wiggle room for other interpretations.

You’re smarter than this ;) You really think Bran is going to be King of Westeros and Sansa QitN? All the other kingdoms are going to shut up and accept this? None of them are going to claim independence for their own kingdoms? And the dumb Northerners are going to be fine being ruled by Sansa when Ned’s eldest living son rules the rest of the kingdoms?

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5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show made Sansa Queen in the North, they didn't leave it open and unresolved, they gave a definitive end point, Sansa is Queen in the North and Bran is King of Westeros.  I don't see any wiggle room for other interpretations.

They also saud that there is still a NW even though the others are defeated and the wildlings are friendly. What does the NW do? hang out on the Wall? Plot their revenge against the kingdoms that sent them to the Wall?

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Both the showrunners and GRRM have said repeatedly that the endings for the main characters are the same, the only way to get to the idea that the endings would be vastly different is to take random sentences out of their original context.  The showrunners said they loved George's ending, they said the journey would be different but would end the same, George said GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations and that the endings would be 'mostly' the same except for secondary characters.  This seems definitive to me unless wishful thinking is involved to maintain a cherished theory from the books.  But, since I don't expect that he will finish the series people will be able to keep hope alive forever.  LOL.

C’mon you are completely ignoring GRRM’s recent blog. He’s being very cagey in it, more so than he’s ever been. And you are forgetting one of his most important quotes that he writes like a gardener and seldom plans things out. As to him knowing the endings of the major characters since the 90s, we know that the story in his initial draft and the books turned out very different. If you go by that, Sansa isn’t even a central character let alone end up QitN. 

He will finish the books now as his legacy depends on it. The show will be eventually forgotten probably much sooner seeing the hate the last season received. GRRM is a smart person, he won’t want his legacy or story’s ending defined by that abomination.

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14 minutes ago, divica said:

The point was proving that he could be king without being on the IT...

But I agree that who ends in the IT seems to be too important to change. Unless grrm changes his mind with time, sees people's reactions or when he is actually writting the story decides it doesn t fit like the 5 year gap...

And don t Forget that despite still having 2 books left if winds is similar to season 6 and beguining of season 7 of the show then grrm will have the same problems as the show did to sell us this ending. Besides the fact that a lot of people don t seem to like it...

It's not even remotely possible for TWOW and ADOS to resemble the show. There's too much extra stuff and we know for sure that the show played musical characters with the plot points. They spoke of the endings lining up but the paths differing. 

Bran as king gets sold if you don't treat the Long Night II like the Slightly Cold with a Dusting of Snow 82 Minute "Long" Night and turn it into a joke which undermines the core themes of the books. If Bran fixes the following and most of the 7 Kingdoms see that, there's how Bran becomes King. 

AGOT  Bran IV

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

 

 

 

 

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Sansa is a main character. Her entire story embodies so many of the books themes and she's got an education in playing the game and ruling and she's smart. For all those people who underestimated her, maybe its time to reassess, just like with Bran. She has load and loads of queen foreshadowing.

She moves up as Robb's heir while Bran "died" in the crypts in ACOK. Bran in the show kept saying he'll never be LoW and that's probably a clue.

As much as I dont like it, Aegon V/Aemon was probably foreshadowing for Bran/Jon. Even Bloodraven had a story similar to Jon's, in that he did a controversial, dishonorable thing in King's Landing to protect the crown and got exiled to the Wall. 

I'm interested to see if Bloodraven gives Bran any political training...you would think that would be important in the next several books. But who knows, this could just be Bran as figurehead with GRRM's fav Tyrion getting the happiest ending of them all. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake
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20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You’re smarter than this ;) You really think Bran is going to be King of Westeros and Sansa QitN? All the other kingdoms are going to shut up and accept this? None of them are going to claim independence for their own kingdoms? And the dumb Northerners are going to be fine being ruled by Sansa when Ned’s eldest living son rules the rest of the kingdoms?

Sure, why not?  We already know that the North can't be held by outsiders, so it make sense they would get their independence.  Of course it won't be brutally stupid and insulting like what the show did, in order for it to happen Westeros will have to be decimated in it's major population centers, the Others will have to get at least to the Riverlands before a final battle and Bran will have to somehow be known and recognized as a key reason for victory.  The alternative, that the showrunners made a character they hate and have sidelined for 4 years King when George doesn't isn't believable to me.  Bran will be king.  Dany will lose it and die.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Jon will go back North for a life of sacrifice and crap.  The only possible change could be to Sansa's story, but if she's not Queen in the North or Lady of Winterfell, I can't imagine her end game unless she dies, which is ever so slightly possible but very unlikely. 

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27 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She has load and loads of queen foreshadowing.

She moves up as Robb's heir while Bran "died" in the crypts in ACOK. Bran in the show kept saying he'll never be LoW and that's probably a clue.

I don’t where these loads and loads of foreshadowing for her becoming queen in the books are. I agree she will have a more central role to play and can see her ruling the Vale but not the North, not in the books.

As for being Robb’s heir, she isn’t currently in the books. We know that Robb disinherited her in the books. Now could things change in future books, perhaps but as it currently stands she has no claim to the North based on Robb’s will, which was witnessed by many of the Northern lords.  

Edited by teej6
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18 minutes ago, teej6 said:

C’mon you are completely ignoring GRRM’s recent blog. He’s being very cagey in it, more so than he’s ever been. And you are forgetting one of his most important quotes that he writes like a gardener and seldom plans things out. As to him knowing the endings of the major characters since the 90s, we know that the story in his initial draft and the books turned out very different. If you go by that, Sansa isn’t even a central character let alone end up QitN. 

He will finish the books now as his legacy depends on it. The show will be eventually forgotten probably much sooner seeing the hate the last season received. GRRM is a smart person, he won’t want his legacy or story’s ending defined by that abomination.

He says the same thing he's always said, yes and no and then talks about secondary and tertiary characters.  His 60 Minutes interview where he actually got questioned was much more definitive, you can't really think that he would say GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations if they massively changed the ending including who ruled Westeros?  

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7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

They spoke of the endings lining up but the paths differing

Thank you. Someone, I can’t remember who, pulled the 'one of the D's was involved in Troy' out of the box of 'ew'. Once you consider that, Martin is completely safe to finish the books as per the endgames.

I like the mashup of: Your theory about the KG regaining their original purpose as the proverbial 'line' the King will not cross. The sword that will stop the power of the Iron Throne. And then you add the 'Bran as God Emperor'. The Kingsguard would be his tether and his limitation, tasked with guarding his life and his integrity.

But maybe I'm just sliding too far out. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, why not?  We already know that the North can't be held by outsiders, so it make sense they would get their independence.  Of course it won't be brutally stupid and insulting like what the show did, in order for it to happen Westeros will have to be decimated in it's major population centers, the Others will have to get at least to the Riverlands before a final battle and Bran will have to somehow be known and recognized as a key reason for victory.  The alternative, that the showrunners made a character they hate and have sidelined for 4 years King when George doesn't isn't believable to me.  Bran will be king.  Dany will lose it and die.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Jon will go back North for a life of sacrifice and crap.  The only possible change could be to Sansa's story, but if she's not Queen in the North or Lady of Winterfell, I can't imagine her end game unless she dies, which is ever so slightly possible but very unlikely. 

If Bran gives the North it’s independence, the Iron Islands and Dorne will stake their claims. I can’t imagine Dorne that fought the IT when the Targs had dragons not wanting independence. Also, if the population of Dorne is to be decimated, then there won’t be much left in Westeros, and definitely not the North.

Sansa could end up ruling the Vale, that’s more what I see for her. And if GRRM keeps Rickon alive, which is looking more likely to me, she could be regent to him in the North. But in QitN when a Stark sits the IT is beyond stupid and baffling.

Edited by teej6
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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

you can't really think that he would say GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations if they massively changed the ending including who ruled Westeros?  

Actually I can. And based on Elio and Linda’s recent video — two people I believe know GRRM pretty well — I seem to think that GRRM might not end the storylines of several characters as the show did. Bran might become king somehow if GRRM shows an epilogue where time has passed (his 5 year jump). I don’t see it happening without sufficient time having elapsed. 

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A variant of Sansa as QitN. 

TWOW Spoilers. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127485-twow-spoilers-alayne-i-v-3/&do=findComment&comment=7895665

Spoiler

Assuming there's a lead Other and based on there must always be a Stark at Winterfell and sacrifice themes in the series, Sansa gets yet another unwelcome marriage to the lead Other as his Ice Queen in the North. Sansa then has to use her LF skills to game the book equiv of the NK much as she had to do in KL. It would also make the Others fit in a bit more with the politics of the rest of the series. 

Instead of using politics to bring down fire, she uses politics to bring down ice. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not even remotely possible for TWOW and ADOS to resemble the show. There's too much extra stuff and we know for sure that the show played musical characters with the plot points. They spoke of the endings lining up but the paths differing. 

Bran as king gets sold if you don't treat the Long Night II like the Slightly Cold with a Dusting of Snow 82 Minute "Long" Night and turn it into a joke which undermines the core themes of the books. If Bran fixes the following and most of the 7 Kingdoms see that, there's how Bran becomes King. 

You can t have the books being completly diferent from the show and grrm saying it is a faithfull adaptation… It doesn t work both ways. And there is a lot of things in the show that we know will happen in the books… Like jon and danny meeting each other for example...

And I highly doubt a single character will have the credit of defeating the others. There will be several characters that will be seen as heroes of the long night… And having a war hero become king is exactly what grrm doesn t like about LotR. He wants to know how aragorn rules! Not that he is a good ruler because he is a hero... IF bran becomes king it won t be simply because he has powers...

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon will go back North for a life of sacrifice and crap.  The only possible change could be to Sansa's story, but if she's not Queen in the North or Lady of Winterfell, I can't imagine her end game unless she dies, which is ever so slightly possible but very unlikely. 

My hope is that sansa ends as lady of the vale and jon as KitN with the new north being composed of wildlings, Giants, skagosi, clansmen, cragnonmen, iron born, bear islanders… Basically a bunch of savages that don t fit with Southern politics. I think it could fit with what happened in the show… I don t think sansa fits in a magical and savage north...

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He says the same thing he's always said, yes and no and then talks about secondary and tertiary characters.  His 60 Minutes interview where he actually got questioned was much more definitive, you can't really think that he would say GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations if they massively changed the ending including who ruled Westeros?  

Dont Forget that he gave that interview before he saw the last season. I think it is safer to say that the first 7 seasons are similar to the books (he even seems to have most of winds written that should end somewhere in the beguining of season 7).

In regards to season 8... I agree there must be similarities to what he has planned. But a lot of what happens there just doesn t fit in the story… If he is really hell bent in ending the story that way we will either never see the end of the books or people will hate them… 

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