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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot


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Tyrion Lannister:

  • Obviously during Dany’s absence from Meereen, Tyrion isn’t going to be idling around teaching people how to drink and tell jokes.  Nor will he be a hapless fool when the battle starts, waiting for Dany to return to save the day.  I think Team Dany will win the Battle of Meereen without Dany, and Tyrion’s manipulations will be the turning point of the battle.
  • It is likely that Tyrion will already be de-facto ruler of Meereen when Dany returns.  Dany and Tyrion will make an alliance, but it won’t be friendly.  I think they will reluctantly join forces because they need each other, but they will never trust each other, and Tyrion’s motive most certainly is not to help Dany to make the world a better place.
  • Tyrion will not be the peace advocate on Dany’s council.  He will be just the opposite.  He also will remain clever rather than becoming an idiot.
  • Repeat from earlier, Tyrion certainly won’t come up with the idea of “if we show Cersei a wight, she will call a truce!”  Tyrion will have no calm and gentle negotiations with Cersei, and if he reunites with Jaime, it won’t be friendly.  I don’t think Cersei will be anywhere near the Iron Throne when Tyrion returns to Westeros.  It will be King Aegon and Queen Arianne he needs to deal with, and he already manipulated Aegon into not allying with Dany.
  • I don’t see Tyrion traveling north to Winterfell.  When Dany goes north, maybe she’ll leave him behind at Dragonstone or Kings Landing or wherever her southern base is.  Tyrion will remain important in his own right for the rest of the story, rather than being downgraded as a declawed idiot standing pointlessly in Dany’s shadow.  I think he will do all sorts of villainous things before the books’ end, so "Saint Tyrion" from the show has very little indication on what the real Tyrion is going to do.
  • When/if Tyrion learns Jon’s identity, he won’t care.  He wants Dany because she has dragons, not because she is the rightful Targaryen heir.  Tyrion will betray Dany, but only because he was never truly loyal to her in the first place.
  • I think the other 5 main POVs will go toward the dark side to varying degrees (except maybe Sansa), but most or all of them will pull back before the end.  Tyrion won’t.  I think he will end the story as a full-blown villain.
  • I think Tyrion will end up ruling Casterly Rock as the villain who gets away with it.  He won’t be King Bran’s Hand unless Bran is also a villain.
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Daenerys Targaryen:

  • Dany isn’t going to reveal her identity to Khal Jhaqo as a surprise; obviously he will already know who she is.  With Drogon at her side, I don’t think Dany is going to waste any time as a temporary Dothraki slave.
  • Dany will get all the Dothraki to bow down to her, and she will be declared the “stallion who mounts the world”.  Drogon will certainly be a reason for this declaration.  Dany won’t set the khals on fire while remaining unburnt; that was a one-time thing and Dany isn’t fireproof.
  • Dany and her united khalasar will return to Meereen, but I think the battle will already be over when she arrives.  Dany and Tyrion will meet, and she'll reluctantly accept him as an unwanted but necessary advisor.
  • Like in the show, I think Dany will leave Meereen relatively soon after she returns.  She’s done with peace and she’s done with Meereen.  If she stops anywhere in Essos on the way to Westeros, it will only be as a necessity for her journey to Westeros; she has no more investment in Essos.
  • Rhaegal and Viserion won’t be well-behaved dragons eager for their mother’s return.  At least one dragon will no longer be hers when she returns to Meereen.  I don’t think Victarion will live to return to Westeros, but I think he will do something to stir up trouble with the dragons (I have no idea what).  Like Asha/Theon in the show, Victarion’s fleet will be Dany’s ticket back home.
  • Daario may or may not be killed before Dany arrives, but he won’t sadly accept Dany’s decision with a calm, gentle breakup.  If Dany sets up a successor in Meereen, she won’t choose Daario.  Obviously she will take the Dothraki to Westeros, but I don’t know if she will take the Unsullied and/or the sellsword companies.  She purchased the Unsullied for her Westeros invasion, but if she cares about Meereen's survival (a big if), they are the ones she’ll leave behind to keep the peace.
  • Regardless, I think Slaver’s Bay will be a smoldering ruin when Dany leaves, and it will be worse off than before her arrival.  Dany’s story in Slaver’s Bay isn’t about her making the world a better place but embracing her family’s words of fire and blood.
  • Dragonstone seems like a likely place for Dany to first land in Westeros, but there won’t be an empty fortress waiting for her peaceful arrival.  But it will be no difficulty for her to take it, and it will be such a non-event that it will probably occur between chapters.
  • I doubt Dany will have any allies waiting for her arrival in Westeros.  The main point of the Dorne plot, I think, is how Dany loses her “easy allies” to Aegon… but Young Griff didn’t exist in the show so the showrunners transferred Aegon’s Dorne/Reach alliance to Dany.
  • Season 7 was ludicrous filler making excuses for why Dany put off her invasion.  Unless Dany is distracted by news of the Others immediately upon her arrival, she’s not going to postpone her invasion: she will go for Kings Landing right away.
  • Drogon isn’t going to burn Kings Landing.  Even if Dany wants him to (she won’t), he can’t.  George Martin could have made the dragons grow up in five years, but he decided to make it take centuries for dragons to reach full size.  So whatever George has in store for Drogon and the other dragons, it isn’t to become massive nukes to take out entire cities at once.
  • That said, I think Kings Landing will be partially burnt down… by either Cersei or Jon Connington, and again that story was transferred to “Mad Queen Dany”.  As negative as my predictions for Dany are, she will not become a genocidal maniac.
  • I think Dany will claim the Iron Throne long before the last moments of the series.  Her rivalry/jealousy with “Aegon Targaryen” will be with Young Griff, not Jon Snow.
  • Melisandre will speak to Dany of vague comments about the “prince or princess that was promised”, but Dany will hear about Azor Ahai plenty of times before arriving in Westeros from other Red Priests.
  • Dany will meet Jon, but since Jon won’t magically teleport across continents (prior to obtaining a dragon), Dany will meet Jon farther in the North.  Under what circumstances I have no idea… but the fact that they eventually meet is the only way the show is predictive of the books.  I don’t think there will be a romance between the two of them, but that might just be my bias that I really hope they don’t.
  • Dany will fight the Others/wights with Drogon.  Nothing about the Long Night on the show will happen in the books, and nothing that happens in the show is an indication of how effective the dragons will be in the battle.
  • Timelines are altered, and I think Dany will have the Iron Throne before the threat of the Others is over.  There might be a “scouring of the Shire” moment with Cersei/Euron briefly retaking the Iron Throne in her absence, but if so, it won’t be difficult for her to retake it.  I think Dany’s worst actions in Westeros will be soon after arrival, not at the very end.
  • Dany won’t “go mad”, and she won’t give any unhinged “first Kings Landing and then the world!” speeches.  I expect her to become a tyrannical conqueror, but in the same vein as Aegon I (whom I also consider a villain) that people can at least plausibly defend… not the indefensible full-blown monster she became in the show.
  • I think Dany will die one way or another.  I think the way Dany became a mad tyrant in the show is so far off from what will happen in the books that there is no way to predict how she will be killed or who will do it, because all that depends on the events leading up to it.
  • Drogon is not going to ambiguously fly Dany’s dead body across the Narrow Sea.  The Dothraki aren’t going to decide: “Well, I guess we peacefully go back to Essos now that our goddess has been murdered.”
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@StarkTullies interesting stuff here.  I tend to agree with much of it, although I didn't see the last four seasons, only read about them.  A few quibbles and comments.

Jon: I am one of those who think he's still alive, albeit seriously injured and comatose, like Bran was.  I don't think he will have a chance to meet with Jeyne.  Theon told her she needs to continue being Arya, so I think Martin is going to let that story line run for awhile.  Anyway, Jeyne's story is more connected to Arya and Sansa than it is to Jon.

Even if he dies and is resurrected, I don't see him leaving the NW through a loophole.  It seems very out of character.  In any event, as Lord Commander and Ned's son, he is in a good position to be the de facto leader of the North, with a figurehead monarch (probably another Stark).

Sansa: I pretty much agree with your take on Sansa. I think she takes down Baelish, but I'm unsure of what the trigger will be.  I expect Baelish's mistreatment of Jeyne Poole will play a role somehow.  The marks on her back need to pay off somehow.  

Her marriage isn't getting annulled with a snap of the fingers.  Martin has her married, sans sex, for a reason.  It's probably to make any remarriage very difficult, albeit still possible.

Arya:  I think the Faceless Men will let her go, but with a price.  I think they will require her to provide assistance for them in Westeros if they need it.  As scion of a great family, she is in a good position for that.  I'm skeptical they ever intended for her to be an assassin.  She's not really suited for it (too much of a conscience, for one thing).

I doubt she will kill many people on her list.  It's getting awfully short.  Gregor and Cersei will be killed by others, Dunsen hasn't been seen lately, and Meryn is a nobody.  That leaves Ilyn Payne, who has gotten a character build up and is in the Riverlands, a logical destination for Arya.  It could be a necessary wakeup call.  She's gotten by on surprise and luck and that won't last forever.

I can see Arya getting interested in sex and maybe targeting Gendry, but I see Gendry turning her down flat.  A young noble girl?  Forget it. If she browbeats anyone into bed with her, I see it being Podrick.  He's eminently browbeatable.

That's all for now.

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TWOW and ADOS will witness scenes of unbridled cruelty and horror.

I think Dany’s journey West encompasses Volantis, whose slaves are about to revolt.  I’d expect wholesale slaughter of the master class, across Western Essos, like Haiti.  Centuries of suffering are being avenged.  That does not mean an end to slavery, but does pretty much, end situations where 75/85% of the people are chattels.

By the time Dany gets to Westeros, Kings Landing is likely a blood-stained ruin.  Any of Jon Con, Euron, Cersei will have destroyed it

The final conflict against the Others takes place well South of Winterfell.

Gilly’s boy is sacrificed to revive Jon.  Stannis sacrifices Shireen, after the Others breach the Wall, in a last ditch effort to secure Divine backing.  Jeyne Poole is unmasked, and burned for treason.

Riverrun and the Twins are sacked, and the inhabitants put to the sword.

Tyrion lusts after Daenerys, and is furious when she rejects him for Jon.  Like Iago, he plots to destroy them both (the unwhitewashed version of his actions on the show).

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On 5/6/2024 at 2:27 AM, Nevets said:

Jon: I am one of those who think he's still alive, albeit seriously injured and comatose, like Bran was.  I don't think he will have a chance to meet with Jeyne.  Theon told her she needs to continue being Arya, so I think Martin is going to let that story line run for awhile.  Anyway, Jeyne's story is more connected to Arya and Sansa than it is to Jon.

I suppose I might have assumed Davos was dead too at the end of ACOK if I had read the books in real-time, and obviously he wasn't.  It just seems like the Prologue with Varamyr was pointless if not to spell out how dead skinchangers live on in their animals.  (I also know it tells us the "three big sins" of skinchanging, but I think that was a lesser purpose of the prologue.  I don't think we needed Varamyr's mentor to inform us that invading another human's mind is wrong.)

I don't take the preview chapters as canon until they are actually published... but in Theon's preview chapter, Stannis ordered "Arya" to the Wall to reunite with Jon.  Theon may not want her to go because it will obviously blow her cover, but there's nothing Theon can do to stop it.

On 5/6/2024 at 2:27 AM, Nevets said:

Even if he dies and is resurrected, I don't see him leaving the NW through a loophole.  It seems very out of character.  In any event, as Lord Commander and Ned's son, he is in a good position to be the de facto leader of the North, with a figurehead monarch (probably another Stark).

Yeah, I'm not sure if Jon will leave the Wall either, just saying that is a plausible explanation for him doing so.  He was previously offered to be named King Jon Stark and he rejected the offer, but there is the whole "he will come back changed" thing (and that's me believing that he is dead and will come back).  Plus to know that his actual (apparent) brother already legitimized him as a Stark and heir to the northern throne is very different than Stannis offering it to him to serve his own needs.

On 5/6/2024 at 2:27 AM, Nevets said:

I think (Sansa) takes down Baelish, but I'm unsure of what the trigger will be.  I expect Baelish's mistreatment of Jeyne Poole will play a role somehow.

Sansa's thoughts are intentionally obscured from the reader at the moment (kind of like Cersei's thoughts were vague when thinking of the dead High Septon, as it was meant to be a "surprise"- but not really- when we learn that she ordered his murder).  I don't think she has forgotten Lysa's accusations against Petyr at the end of ASOS, and that is reason enough to turn against him.  There is just nothing she can do about it at the moment because she's powerless.  I think/hope she will hold her thoughts in until she is publicly revealed as Sansa Stark with the backing of the Knights of the Vale, and then she will expose him.

Sansa would be extremely upset to learn about Jeyne's treatment, but I don't think she'll ever learn that while in the Vale... and I hope Petyr is taken care of before she leaves.

On 5/6/2024 at 2:27 AM, Nevets said:

I doubt she will kill many people on her list.  It's getting awfully short.  Gregor and Cersei will be killed by others, Dunsen hasn't been seen lately, and Meryn is a nobody.  That leaves Ilyn Payne, who has gotten a character build up and is in the Riverlands, a logical destination for Arya.

I wouldn't have thought so either, but why else would the Ghost of High Heart reacted the way she did when they met?  Unless she just sensed her future involvement with the Faceless Men, and she reacted to the organization rather than Arya's actions herself.

I definitely don't think Arya will kill Cersei.  I don't consider Raff to have happened yet (even though it's in the preview chapter) so he is still left.  Really I don't think she'll get to many people on her list, but I think she'll kill numerous more people.  (And no, I'm not an "Arya is a psychopath" person... I think she's trapped in a very unfortunate situation that she'll eventually get out of, but not immediately.)

On 5/6/2024 at 2:27 AM, Nevets said:

I can see Arya getting interested in sex and maybe targeting Gendry, but I see Gendry turning her down flat.  A young noble girl?  Forget it. If she browbeats anyone into bed with her, I see it being Podrick.  He's eminently browbeatable.

I hope not.  I know that Dany was not quite 14 when she started having sex... but that was meant to be horrifying and it wasn't Dany's choice.  (Even though Dany claimed to love Drogo and many fans think it was intended as a true love story, I don't think that was George Martin's intention at all.  Drogo is a mass-murdering monster, and Dany had Stockholm syndrome.)  And Dany was still older then than Arya is now.

Regardless, even if it was George Martin's plan to have Arya become interested in sex, the showrunners didn't write the Arya/Gendry scene based on George's input.  They realized that the show was almost finished and Arya and Brienne were still virgins, so they had to fix that really quick.

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On 5/9/2024 at 9:27 AM, StarkTullies said:

I suppose I might have assumed Davos was dead too at the end of ACOK if I had read the books in real-time, and obviously he wasn't.  It just seems like the Prologue with Varamyr was pointless if not to spell out how dead skinchangers live on in their animals.  (I also know it tells us the "three big sins" of skinchanging, but I think that was a lesser purpose of the prologue.  I don't think we needed Varamyr's mentor to inform us that invading another human's mind is wrong.)

I don't take the preview chapters as canon until they are actually published... but in Theon's preview chapter, Stannis ordered "Arya" to the Wall to reunite with Jon.  Theon may not want her to go because it will obviously blow her cover, but there's nothing Theon can do to stop it.

Yeah, I'm not sure if Jon will leave the Wall either, just saying that is a plausible explanation for him doing so.  He was previously offered to be named King Jon Stark and he rejected the offer, but there is the whole "he will come back changed" thing (and that's me believing that he is dead and will come back).  Plus to know that his actual (apparent) brother already legitimized him as a Stark and heir to the northern throne is very different than Stannis offering it to him to serve his own needs.

Sansa's thoughts are intentionally obscured from the reader at the moment (kind of like Cersei's thoughts were vague when thinking of the dead High Septon, as it was meant to be a "surprise"- but not really- when we learn that she ordered his murder).  I don't think she has forgotten Lysa's accusations against Petyr at the end of ASOS, and that is reason enough to turn against him.  There is just nothing she can do about it at the moment because she's powerless.  I think/hope she will hold her thoughts in until she is publicly revealed as Sansa Stark with the backing of the Knights of the Vale, and then she will expose him.

Sansa would be extremely upset to learn about Jeyne's treatment, but I don't think she'll ever learn that while in the Vale... and I hope Petyr is taken care of before she leaves.

I wouldn't have thought so either, but why else would the Ghost of High Heart reacted the way she did when they met?  Unless she just sensed her future involvement with the Faceless Men, and she reacted to the organization rather than Arya's actions herself.

I definitely don't think Arya will kill Cersei.  I don't consider Raff to have happened yet (even though it's in the preview chapter) so he is still left.  Really I don't think she'll get to many people on her list, but I think she'll kill numerous more people.  (And no, I'm not an "Arya is a psychopath" person... I think she's trapped in a very unfortunate situation that she'll eventually get out of, but not immediately.)

I hope not.  I know that Dany was not quite 14 when she started having sex... but that was meant to be horrifying and it wasn't Dany's choice.  (Even though Dany claimed to love Drogo and many fans think it was intended as a true love story, I don't think that was George Martin's intention at all.  Drogo is a mass-murdering monster, and Dany had Stockholm syndrome.)  And Dany was still older then than Arya is now.

Regardless, even if it was George Martin's plan to have Arya become interested in sex, the showrunners didn't write the Arya/Gendry scene based on George's input.  They realized that the show was almost finished and Arya and Brienne were still virgins, so they had to fix that really quick.

Martin loves Beauty and the Beast, and I think Dany/Drogo, Dany/Jorah, and Sansa/Sandor are iterations of it.

To me, these are all full of squick.  

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One feature of the show was that by the end of it, I detested the Starks, as shitty, treacherous, schemers.

I would hope that’s not what Martin intends.

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12 hours ago, SeanF said:

One feature of the show was that by the end of it, I detested the Starks, as shitty, treacherous, schemers.

I agree.  In the books, most of my favorite characters are Starks (probably not a surprise), but I hate all the alt-versions of them by the end of the show.  The only character who lived until the last two seasons I thought they did a good job with was Theon.  Otherwise, the only living characters I still tolerated by the last two seasons were Meera, Podrick, Missandei (because they killed her before she had a chance to become a genocide enthusiast for Mad Queen Dany, and I choose to believe that her "DRACARYS!" was a call for Dany to kill Cersei, not everybody), Gilly and Baby Sam (because the show didn't do enough with them to ruin their characters), and of course Ghost.

Bran was no longer a character.  He was a robot who "downloaded" the Three Eyed Raven to become the next version of the rotating immortal wizard, according to the showrunners.  Which is even stupider because the previous Three Eyed Raven as portrayed in Season 6 was not a robot.  I can't even blame Bran for his non-sensical "why do you think I came all this way" and horrific "you looked so beautiful the night I watched you being raped" comments because he was robot, not a character.

Arya was service for the type of fans who hoot and holler in bars every time a dragon appears on screen or a villain dies... and Arya's "badass" moments served those types of fans well.  She was an utter psychopath, but the showrunners intended for her to be fist-pumpingly awesome.

Jon was my briefly favorite character in one very early episode (when he stood up against Sam's bullies), but I lost all interest in him very soon afterwards.  His endless open-mouthed confusion, flat and emotionless delivery, and ultra-plot armor was extremely annoying, so I was very surprised at myself upon reading the books when Jon Snow unexpectedly became my favorite book character.  Defending Dany's mass murder rampage with a wishy-washy "it was an impossible choice" absolutely destroyed any lingering redeeming qualities he might still have had.

Sansa was the best of the Starks by the end, the best of the major characters other than Theon, and that's pathetic because she was still horrible.

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

I would hope that’s not what Martin intends.

I have a full confidence that it is not.  The showrunners intended to make the Starks heroic and likeable by the end; they just failed miserably.

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On 5/11/2024 at 1:14 AM, SeanF said:

Martin loves Beauty and the Beast, and I think Dany/Drogo, Dany/Jorah, and Sansa/Sandor are iterations of it.

Sansa/Sandor maybe... not the "love story" part, but Sandor's surprising affection toward the young Stark sisters perhaps being one element toward his possible redemption.  I think and hope that Cleganebowl was just fan service toward the hooting and hollering bar fans who only wanted "badass moments", and nothing like that will happen in the books.  Sandor's defining trait has been his desire to murder his brother, and if he actually does that, then his story isn't a redemption arc at all but a "people can never change" story.  That's the story the show gave us, but I don't think George Martin is quite that cynical.

I think Jorah is intended as nothing but a dirty old man lusting after a young girl.  If George Martin wanted Jorah to be the Beast to Dany's Beauty, Jorah would have been more ashamed and repenting when Dany confronted him with his betrayal (like he was in the show).  George Martin said he liked the show versions of Shae and Osha better than his book version, but he never said that about Jorah.  When Dany and Jorah presumably reunite in the next book, I doubt she will be happy to see him.

I also think the apparent positivity about Drogo in the books is part of the brilliance of George Martin writing from the character's perspective.  Drogo made a vow to kill the men of Westeros, rape the women of Westeros, and enslave the children of Westeros.  Since I am fully confident that George doesn't support any of that, I don't think Drogo is meant to be seen as anything other than a pure monster, but he isn't written that way because the only perspective we get (Dany's) doesn't see him that way.  I don't think we're supposed to root for Drogo as a person, or Drogo/Dany as a couple.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree.  In the books, most of my favorite characters are Starks (probably not a surprise), but I hate all the alt-versions of them by the end of the show.  The only character who lived until the last two seasons I thought they did a good job with was Theon.  Otherwise, the only living characters I still tolerated by the last two seasons were Meera, Podrick, Missandei (because they killed her before she had a chance to become a genocide enthusiast for Mad Queen Dany, and I choose to believe that her "DRACARYS!" was a call for Dany to kill Cersei, not everybody), Gilly and Baby Sam (because the show didn't do enough with them to ruin their characters), and of course Ghost.

Bran was no longer a character.  He was a robot who "downloaded" the Three Eyed Raven to become the next version of the rotating immortal wizard, according to the showrunners.  Which is even stupider because the previous Three Eyed Raven as portrayed in Season 6 was not a robot.  I can't even blame Bran for his non-sensical "why do you think I came all this way" and horrific "you looked so beautiful the night I watched you being raped" comments because he was robot, not a character.

Arya was service for the type of fans who hoot and holler in bars every time a dragon appears on screen or a villain dies... and Arya's "badass" moments served those types of fans well.  She was an utter psychopath, but the showrunners intended for her to be fist-pumpingly awesome.

Jon was my briefly favorite character in one very early episode (when he stood up against Sam's bullies), but I lost all interest in him very soon afterwards.  His endless open-mouthed confusion, flat and emotionless delivery, and ultra-plot armor was extremely annoying, so I was very surprised at myself upon reading the books when Jon Snow unexpectedly became my favorite book character.  Defending Dany's mass murder rampage with a wishy-washy "it was an impossible choice" absolutely destroyed any lingering redeeming qualities he might still have had.

Sansa was the best of the Starks by the end, the best of the major characters other than Theon, and that's pathetic because she was still horrible.

I have a full confidence that it is not.  The showrunners intended to make the Starks heroic and likeable by the end; they just failed miserably.

If the tale was written by @Joe Abercrombiethe Starks would be Lannisters with different hair colour, by the end.  But, that would be a deliberate authorial choice.  And, while opposing Jon’s execution publicly, Arya would murder him privately, both to avoid war with Grey Worm and the Dothraki, and to get rid of another claimant.

In the end, I think the show runners made it a Stark w*nk fanfic.  The problems with fanfics that root so hard for one side is that they don’t realise how bad they make them look, and they cause readers/viewers  to push back in the opposite direction.

Which would be a horrid grimdark ending, but one that made sense.

Jon’s defending Dany to Tyrion is what makes me think that her deliberately swerving away from the Red Keep to target civilians, was a very late addition to the episode.  Jon’s comments far more fit a situation where she goes after Cersei in fury, killing the civilians in the Red Keep, in the process, the soldiers go on a spree on the ground, but there is no burning of the rest of the city.  Especially given his motivation for killing Dany was not the burning of the city, but fear for his sisters.

Edited by SeanF
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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Sansa/Sandor maybe... not the "love story" part, but Sandor's surprising affection toward the young Stark sisters perhaps being one element toward his possible redemption.  I think and hope that Cleganebowl was just fan service toward the hooting and hollering bar fans who only wanted "badass moments", and nothing like that will happen in the books.  Sandor's defining trait has been his desire to murder his brother, and if he actually does that, then his story isn't a redemption arc at all but a "people can never change" story.  That's the story the show gave us, but I don't think George Martin is quite that cynical.

I think Jorah is intended as nothing but a dirty old man lusting after a young girl.  If George Martin wanted Jorah to be the Beast to Dany's Beauty, Jorah would have been more ashamed and repenting when Dany confronted him with his betrayal (like he was in the show).  George Martin said he liked the show versions of Shae and Osha better than his book version, but he never said that about Jorah.  When Dany and Jorah presumably reunite in the next book, I doubt she will be happy to see him.

I also think the apparent positivity about Drogo in the books is part of the brilliance of George Martin writing from the character's perspective.  Drogo made a vow to kill the men of Westeros, rape the women of Westeros, and enslave the children of Westeros.  Since I am fully confident that George doesn't support any of that, I don't think Drogo is meant to be seen as anything other than a pure monster, but he isn't written that way because the only perspective we get (Dany's) doesn't see him that way.  I don't think we're supposed to root for Drogo as a person, or Drogo/Dany as a couple.

Drogo, IMHO, is a pretty generic barbarian warlord, from Edgar Rice Burroughs, or Robert Howard. I do read it as being intended to be a love story, albeit one that is quite fucked up, again IMHO.

In the popular imagination, I’d say that steppe conquerors like Genghis Khan, Timur, or people like the Vikings, are seen as the ultimate badasses, rather than as villains.  And, I think that’s how many readers view Drogo.  Similarly, Conan proclaims “Man’s greatest joy is to slaughter his enemies, to crush them and drive them before them, and to listen to the lamentations of their women.”  Martin’s subversion of the trope lies in Drogo falling victim to a random wound.

Pre-Drogo, Dany’s experience of men is Viserys molesting and threatening her, and Illyrio thinking of making her his child mistress.

Edited by SeanF
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On 5/11/2024 at 1:14 AM, SeanF said:

Martin loves Beauty and the Beast, and I think Dany/Drogo, Dany/Jorah, and Sansa/Sandor are iterations of it.

To me, these are all full of squick.  

Plus Tyrion and Sansa.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I feel like that Aegon and the Martells are going to end up doing much worse than Robert and the Lannisters.

There's a good chance that they are going to:

  • destroy King's Landing (thereby making it impossible to defend)
  • needlessly antagonize Daenerys and play victim when she fights back
  • completely ignore Euron and play victim when he targets them
  • alienate all sources of food and aid
  • fail miserably in leading the country against the Others

At least you can say that the Lannisters did it on purpose. I think the Martells will do it on accident.... which is almost worst.

On 5/7/2024 at 7:15 AM, SeanF said:

Tyrion lusts after Daenerys, and is furious when she rejects him for Jon.  Like Iago, he plots to destroy them both (the unwhitewashed version of his actions on the show).

Yep.

It's crazy how you and I were on the exact same page with this years ago back in 2019...right after the show ended. I'm pretty sure I said it first though lol

  • Dany and Jon are both a mixture of Desdemona and Othello (with Dany being more like Desdemona and Jon more Othello-dominant)
  • Tyrion is Iago
  • Sansa is Emilia
  • and Bran is Cassio.

And to everyone who doesn't quite remember the story: Cassio is Othello's successor and Emilia is Iago's wife. While both Cassio and Emilia are the true heroes of the story (which is both hilarious and sad considering that both Cassio and Emilia have very questionable hobbies and character traits even by today's standards), Emilia is actually the greater more unsung hero of the whole story. Not only is she the most courageous character in the entire cast but she is one who ends up exposing Iago for the monster he is. 

Meaning that I think Sansa and Bran are the ones who come out on top of this whole tragedy. Unlike Emilia though, I don't think Sansa will die. Bran will become the King and Sansa will not only be his heir but his Hand, the first female Hand of the King. Rickon becomes the Lord of Winterfell and the forefather of all future Starks. The North, under Rickon's reign, becomes even wilder than ever before with all of the Skagosi and Free Folk (and maybe even Ghischari) newcomers. And while I can envision Arya becoming an important part of King Bran's court, like Eowyn from LOTR, I can also see Arya retiring from both warfare and politics to be a traditional lady-wife...that secretly moonlights as an agent for the Faceless Men; a lot like Lady Smallwood.

On 5/12/2024 at 4:28 AM, SeanF said:

Jon’s defending Dany to Tyrion is what makes me think that her deliberately swerving away from the Red Keep to target civilians, was a very late addition to the episode.  Jon’s comments far more fit a situation where she goes after Cersei in fury, killing the civilians in the Red Keep, in the process, the soldiers go on a spree on the ground, but there is no burning of the rest of the city.  Especially given his motivation for killing Dany was not the burning of the city, but fear for his sisters.

It was an 11th hour decision.

The city was supposed to be destroyed by wildfire set off by the soldiers sacking the city and the dragonfire burning the Red Keep. We see that literally happen.

They just changed the color of the fire from green to orange and made Drogon's shadow zip around in post-production

Edited by BlackLightning
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On 5/31/2024 at 9:58 PM, BlackLightning said:

It was an 11th hour decision.

The city was supposed to be destroyed by wildfire set off by the soldiers sacking the city and the dragonfire burning the Red Keep. We see that literally happen.

They just changed the color of the fire from green to orange and made Drogon's shadow zip around in post-production

They kept a few bursts of wildfire in there; in some of the extra-wide shots you can see plumes of green fire going off.

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On 6/3/2024 at 2:23 PM, Angel Eyes said:

They kept a few bursts of wildfire in there; in some of the extra-wide shots you can see plumes of green fire going off.

What I heard** is that D&D wanted what they had wanted and made the decision to change that part of the episode at the very last minute

As with most situations in which managers are forcing a team of people to come back and make some very comprehensive last-minute changes to a project, the post-production team was overwhelmed, and they made a few oversights/mistakes in the change. And then D&D were too lazy to verify that the job was done correctly.

So that's why we still see those wildfire caches explode even though they had already decided to make Daenerys solely responsible for destroying the entire city on dragonback...

It's piss-poor management.

 

**heard this from the spouse of a man was on the post-production SFX team; may not be completely true

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

What I heard** is that D&D wanted what they had wanted and made the decision to change that part of the episode at the very last minute

As with most situations in which managers are forcing a team of people to come back and make some very comprehensive last-minute changes to a project, the post-production team was overwhelmed, and they made a few oversights/mistakes in the change. And then D&D were too lazy to verify that the job was done correctly.

So that's why we still see those wildfire caches explode even though they had already decided to make Daenerys solely responsible for destroying the entire city on dragonback...

It's piss-poor management.

 

**heard this from the spouse of a man was on the post-production SFX team; may not be completely true

Even so, it would make some sense that some of the wildfire was set off. Cersei had the Sept blown up by setting off a massive explosion with a smashed barrel and a candle; it would not be surprising that the wildfire would be triggered by something as potent as Drogon breathing fire straight down.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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On 6/9/2024 at 1:57 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Even so, it would make some sense that some of the wildfire was set off. Cersei had the Sept blown up by setting off a massive explosion with a smashed barrel and a candle; it would not be surprising that the wildfire would be triggered by something as potent as Drogon breathing fire straight down.

Even though I could've sworn it was established that Cersei used the last of the city's wildfire to destroy the Great Sept, it does make sense

But in the end, the wholesale destruction of King's Landing and the deaths of almost a million people was supposed to be ambiguous and the ambiguity was supposed to be part of the chaos. No one on either side was supposed to understand what was happening and why. Was it an unintended consequence of Daenerys' actions or did one of the soldiers on either side set it off by mistake? Or was it something that was done on purpose by Cersei?

It was supposed to be an accidental tragedy that Daenerys accepted and found cathartic. The fact that such a disaster could be such a huge relief is a big red flag in and of itself, but it makes Daenerys literally no different from Arya or the Hound, both of whom have entire storylines that revolve around whether or not killing people is enjoyable. It becomes a lot more nuanced.

Not only was it rushed, but it was just so ridiculously forced. Especially since she becomes an entirely different character the very next and final episode.

 

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21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Even though I could've sworn it was established that Cersei used the last of the city's wildfire to destroy the Great Sept, it does make sense

But in the end, the wholesale destruction of King's Landing and the deaths of almost a million people was supposed to be ambiguous and the ambiguity was supposed to be part of the chaos. No one on either side was supposed to understand what was happening and why. Was it an unintended consequence of Daenerys' actions or did one of the soldiers on either side set it off by mistake? Or was it something that was done on purpose by Cersei?

It was supposed to be an accidental tragedy that Daenerys accepted and found cathartic. The fact that such a disaster could be such a huge relief is a big red flag in and of itself, but it makes Daenerys literally no different from Arya or the Hound, both of whom have entire storylines that revolve around whether or not killing people is enjoyable. It becomes a lot more nuanced.

Not only was it rushed, but it was just so ridiculously forced. Especially since she becomes an entirely different character the very next and final episode.

 

Dany’s final conversation with Jon, and Jon’s with Tyrion, make a lot more sense, had she flown straight for the Red Keep and destroyed it, with the human shields.  That’s an act that’s ruthless, but bluntly, entirely in keeping with the behaviour of any modern military.  ( As an aside, where do parts of the fandom get the idea that civilians aren’t killed in warfare?  Our leaders razed cities to the ground, not too long ago).

That certainly supports the view that her swerving aside to kill civilians was a last minute change.

Another last minute change was deleting a discussion between Jon and Tyrion, in which Jon admits that no surrender is going to be accepted.

It would make sense for Jon to defend to Tyrion, a ruthless act that’s still normative in war, and one that he bears some responsibility for, and only be swayed by worry for Sansa and Arya.

Of course, if it were true to real world history, Cersei killed off any chance of a surrender, by murdering Missandei.

Edited by SeanF
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15 hours ago, SeanF said:

Our leaders razed cities to the ground, not too long ago

What do you mean? Either our leaders still do it, or they support others governments and leaders who do it.

Look at the Gaza Strip...or should I say, look at what's left of the Gaza Strip.

15 hours ago, SeanF said:

Another last minute change was deleting a discussion between Jon and Tyrion, in which Jon admits that no surrender is going to be accepted.

It would make sense for Jon to defend to Tyrion, a ruthless act that’s still normative in war, and one that he bears some responsibility for, and only be swayed by worry for Sansa and Arya.

That's another plothole.

Why would he be worried about Sansa and Arya? And why would he let Tyrion mindfuck him into worrying about them? They have almost nothing to do with what happened to King's Landing.

Sansa? Okay, maybe I can see her getting in trouble over the fact that she made a conscious decision to break a solemn oath and run her mouth. Is it a capital crime though? I can see Dany and Jon being very mad and suspicious of Sansa for a long time...but killing her? Killing her would be illogical, pointless and not worth it...especially since the only person she shared it with was Tyrion...who inexplicably thought it was a good idea to tell Varys. So, if anything, the actual fault lies with Tyrion.

But Arya? What did she do? Why would Daenerys hate her? Was Arya mad about what happened to the city? Apparently so, which is crazy, since Arya herself wanted to destroy the city.

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20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sansa? Okay, maybe I can see her getting in trouble over the fact that she made a conscious decision to break a solemn oath and run her mouth. Is it a capital crime though? I can see Dany and Jon being very mad and suspicious of Sansa for a long time...but killing her? Killing her would be illogical, pointless and not worth it...especially since the only person she shared it with was Tyrion...who inexplicably thought it was a good idea to tell Varys. So, if anything, the actual fault lies with Tyrion.

It would have been interesting to see the fallout from Varys informing the whole of Westeros about Jon.

Technically the whole debacle with losing Rhaegal (Rhaegel?) and Missandei is Tyrion's fault; he suggests splitting up Daenerys' forces by taking the sea route into Euron's tentacles, leading to Rhaegal getting shot down and Missandei getting captured and executed.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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