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Wheely? Discussing the "breaking of the wheel"

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Just now, Pacala said:

I don`t think Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, etc. are, were tyrans. Some changed the world and they didn`t destroyed.

Leading people dosen`t necessary mean changing the world.

You're missing the point. Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk aren't aspiring politicians or rulers. They're entrepreneurs and fabulously rich, to be sure, but that's not what we're talking about here. Although the Citadel might be willing to grant them some patents...Planetos has yet to invent capitalism. 

We're talking about the rich and powerful having total control over the lives of those of the lower social classes. There is no democracy--this is a feudal system. As Varys says, "Why is it the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" It is always, always, the common people who suffer the most. Do the sons and daughters of those declaring war pay the price for that decision? By and large, no, unless they voluntarily serve in the armed forces. It is always the children of others who are sent to die, not the ones making the decisions. In ASOIAF as well as medieval times, the peasants and serfs bore the brunt of it. It was their land that was ravaged, their crops trampled, their livestock butchered, their families killed and raped. And for what? So some spoiled aristocrats could play their games of thrones? 

That's what we're talking about here. Even if you sweep away feudalism and go with something more democratic, eventually you're going to end up with a Parliament or Congress and the same shit starts all over again. 

There's a warning here, too. Any time you have a cult of personality figure who is promising to break the wheel or drain the swamp, beware. 

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4 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

What? I meant not paying taxes to the crown, to the KL...

That's economically a great advantage.

"The wheel" is a metaphor for the Game of Thrones; the struggle for powerful people to become more powerful despite the adverse effects of the common people. 

Did they break "the wheel"? No. 

Does the North being its own independent kingdom remove any chance that lesser houses will rise up and attempt to take power? NOPE. We saw this happen already with the Boltons usurping the Starks.

This is a traditional, paint-by-numbers fantasy ending. The good guys are at the top of the wheel and everything is good because these characters know what is good and will continue to know what is good. There is NO INDICATION whatsoever that wheel is continuing to turn. We can assume it will. But, we aren't shown that. We are presented with a happily-ever-after style ending.   

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6 minutes ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

"The wheel" is a metaphor for the Game of Thrones; the struggle for powerful people to become more powerful despite the adverse effects of the common people. 

Did they break "the wheel"? No. 

Does the North being its own independent kingdom remove any chance that lesser houses will rise up and attempt to take power? NOPE. We saw this happen already with the Boltons usurping the Starks.

This is a traditional, paint-by-numbers fantasy ending. The good guys are at the top of the wheel and everything is good because these characters know what is good and will continue to know what is good. There is NO INDICATION whatsoever that wheel is continuing to turn. We can assume it will. But, we aren't shown that. We are presented with a happily-ever-after style ending.   

And with the exception of Bronn, they're all nobility. The common people don't know what's good for them and they need the nobles to tell them. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

"The wheel" is a metaphor for the Game of Thrones; the struggle for powerful people to become more powerful despite the adverse effects of the common people. 

Did they break "the wheel"? No. 

Does the North being its own independent kingdom remove any chance that lesser houses will rise up and attempt to take power? NOPE. We saw this happen already with the Boltons usurping the Starks.

This is a traditional, paint-by-numbers fantasy ending. The good guys are at the top of the wheel and everything is good because these characters know what is good and will continue to know what is good. There is NO INDICATION whatsoever that wheel is continuing to turn. We can assume it will. But, we aren't shown that. We are presented with a happily-ever-after style ending.   

Boltons usurped Starks because Ned Stark went to south and get himself killed and Starks fought against the crown at the South, and the Boltons get the advantage from it.

That would never happen if they didn't interfere with the problems of the South or if they didn't fight at the South.

So yeah, no one touches the Starks if they are an independent kingdom, not even Andal invasion did any effect on them, no army could pass the moat cailin, not unless someone comes with a Dragon, they are safe.

Edited by Erkan12

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Posted (edited)

They set up for the wheel to be in motion after Bran dies. They won't want his kids as they are Starks and the Starks and the North are no longer under their rule. So can't go that easy route. Tyrion most likely will be dead. So no "intelligent" discussion. So you'll have an open throne with 6 kingdoms wanting their own on the throne well 7 depends what the Greyjoys do. Are they part of the North or went back to the Riverlands? They put the brakes on the wheel, but at some point they'll start turning it again.

Edited by That Westerosi Dude
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3 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Boltons usurped Starks because Ned Stark went to south and get himself killed and Starks fought against the crown at the South, and the Boltons get the advantage from it.

That would never happen if they didn't interfere with the problems of the South or if they didn't fight at the South.

So yeah, no one touches the Starks if they are an independent kingdom, not even Andal invasion did any effect on them, no army could pass the moat cailin, not unless someone comes with a Dragon, they are safe.

Boltons usurp the Starks for no other reason than that they are given the opportunity to. Why would the entire North be content to capitulate to Stark rule forever? Have the Northerners become devoid of ambition, greed, cunning, or avarice? Other than, "The Starks are the good guys!" circle jerk, is there any other reason to believe that the common people of the North will be better off and that the Northern lords will stay more peaceful than they were under Robert's rule, or any other Southern king for that matter?

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1 hour ago, Pacala said:

They tried to make this big symbolism shit with false idea that each character react as a real person. Apparently the Atomic Bomb is the only one with human emotions but dosen`t give a shit. If Drogon was so smart, he could have easily melt down the center of power before Danny going mad on the false presumption she is going to break the wheel. Remember, this story does not have heroes or villains.

The bold part is essentially a word salad, and the rest is little better. To the extent you're suggesting Dany (is she "Atomic Bomb?") is the only person portrayed with human emotions, you're just completely wrong.

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2 minutes ago, That Westerosi Dude said:

They set up for the wheel to be in motion after Bran dies. They won't want his kids as they are Starks and the Starks and the North are no longer under their rule. So can't go that easy route. Tyrion most likely will be dead. So no "intelligent" discussion. So you'll have an open throne with 6 kingdoms wanting their own on the throne well 7 depends what the Greyjoys do. Are they part of the North or went back to the Riverlands? They put the brakes on the wheel, but at some point they'll start turning it again.

Exactly this. Though this is the obvious conclusion, it is not presented that way. It really looks like a "and they all lived happily ever after" ending. There is no hint of rival factions developing, foreign threats rising, nothing. The only consolation for the audience is that all the people at the top of the wheel are familiar and presented as possessors of Saint-like morality. 

I remember when the show used to have political intrigue.

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1 minute ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The bold part is essentially a word salad, and the rest is little better. To the extent you're suggesting Dany (is she "Atomic Bomb?") is the only person portrayed with human emotions, you're just completely wrong.

i was referring to Drogon

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1 minute ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

Boltons usurp the Starks for no other reason than that they are given the opportunity to. Why would the entire North be content to capitulate to Stark rule forever? Have the Northerners become devoid of ambition, greed, cunning, or avarice? Other than, "The Starks are the good guys!" circle jerk, is there any other reason to believe that the common people of the North will be better off and that the Northern lords will stay more peaceful than they were under Robert's rule, or any other Southern king for that matter?

It has nothing to do with ''Starks are good guys thing''.

Because they were independent for thousands of years, why would they stick with the south just because what, 280 years of Targaryen dynasty? As Greatjon said, the dragons are dead now.

They had a devastating war against the South, and they had to interfere with the problems of the South for no reason.

They are following the old gods and they are not andals, they are first men. They have every reasons to be seperated from the south.

 

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11 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Boltons usurped Starks because Ned Stark went to south and get himself killed and Starks fought against the crown at the South, and the Boltons get the advantage from it.

That would never happen if they didn't interfere with the problems of the South or if they didn't fight at the South.

So yeah, no one touches the Starks if they are an independent kingdom, not even Andal invasion did any effect on them, no army could pass the moat cailin, not unless someone comes with a Dragon, they are safe.

Ummm... the Greyjoys took Moat Calin from the sea and created hell for the Starks as a result.  What would stop another enemy from taking Moat Calin from the sea and opening the North to a serious invasion from the South?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ummm... the Greyjoys took Moat Calin from the sea and created hell for the Starks as a result.  What would stop another enemy from taking Moat Calin from the sea and opening the North to a serious invasion from the South?

Are you playing the dumb dude? You should know why the Ironborns took the moat cailin, because they were fighting at the South with 20.000 men  , they left no men to protect the North.

That would never happen if they didn't fight at the South. Not even 2.000 men left, Boltons quickly took it back from the ironborns afterwards, when they gathered at least 3.000 or 4.000 men.

Edited by Erkan12

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8 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Are you playing the dumb dude? You should know why the Ironborns took the moat cailin, because they were fighting at the South with 20.000 men  , they left no men to protect the North.

That would never happen if they didn't fight at the South. Not even 2.000 men left, Boltons quickly took it back from the ironborns afterwards, when they gathered at least 3.000 or 4.000 men.

The Greyjoys held The Moat for some time.  If such an attack were made in conjunction with a large force moving up the Neck they could be in place before Northern forces can be assembled to oppose them.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The Greyjoys held The Moat for some time.  If such an attack were made in conjunction with a large force moving up the Neck they could be in place before Northern forces can be assembled to oppose them.

Yes, when Starks were fighting at the South they did that.

I still don't see what your point is, Starks protected the North for thousands of years against the Andals, the South or Ironborn doesn't matter, they can't take the North, even when the North went to South they still failed to hold it. Your point is moot dude, even Yara said they don't have chance at the land,

Again; even when the North army went to south they failed. No way they could do anything to them when they stay at the North.

 

Edited by Erkan12

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It could work, I heard there will be a sequel and the story involves Davos’ Master plan, he is now in the Red Keep, with access to Qyburns books, all he needs do is find Stannis’ cold preserved body and bring him back from the dead, there is no chance he’d allow a Red Priest to get the credit for his resurrection. After Stannis reassumed control of the Stormlands from a Gendry who died childless, Stannis is free to throw his hat into the mix for election after Bran dies and seemingly for all eternity until he wins, when he does he is King, forever, the wheel is broken, the problem solved.

 

Or to give the Westerosi some credit, Brian dies and his successor is appointed, his successor however has children and he tries to reinstate the old monarchy style, civil war erupts, team election win and change the rules again so that the new King may only serve a term before another must be elected. Until Stannis’ resurrected corpse wins and remains in power forever anyway

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And with the exception of Bronn, they're all nobility.

And Davos - at least for the idea he was not born nobility.  Help the right nobility when they need it and you can get thrown a bone.  But title is what is held out as the ultimate "get me out of jail" card by the great houses.  

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1 hour ago, That Westerosi Dude said:

They set up for the wheel to be in motion after Bran dies. They won't want his kids as they are Starks and the Starks and the North are no longer under their rule. So can't go that easy route. Tyrion most likely will be dead. So no "intelligent" discussion. So you'll have an open throne with 6 kingdoms wanting their own on the throne well 7 depends what the Greyjoys do. Are they part of the North or went back to the Riverlands? They put the brakes on the wheel, but at some point they'll start turning it again.

What kids? Sansa pointed out to everyone that Bran can't have kids so unless he names an heir, (which he won't do), there will be some sort of election to choose his successor and it won't be a Stark.

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So basically the moral of the story is don't try to save the world, allow the rich and powerful to elect the rulers and ride the wave in the hopes that you will be rewarded for doing almost nothing?

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