Wheely? Discussing the "breaking of the wheel"

[420faceless]

It's interesting, as some characters seem to think a wheel has been broken metaphorically, but all the evidence suggests that everything almost has slipped back into place again.

This could in fact be a plot of Bran's to bring everything back into this synergy, and shows even more why he is in the power seat.
Perhaps Bran is representative of this wheel and Dany was the threat...there's a lot of places to go here, I'm just getting the wheel rolling.

[Pacala]

breaking the wheel or changing the world is an illusion.

[a girl knows nothing]

8 minutes ago, 420faceless said:

It's interesting, as some characters seem to think a wheel has been broken metaphorically, but all the evidence suggests that everything almost has slipped back into place again.

This could in fact be a plot of Bran's to bring everything back into this synergy, and shows even more why he is in the power seat.
Perhaps Bran is representative of this wheel and Dany was the threat...there's a lot of places to go here, I'm just getting the wheel rolling.

They definitely did not break the wheel, and things will continue on as they have before. I suppose from the characters' view points having an elected ruler is progressive (although the north and iron islands have already held similar choosings), so maybe they see it as change. But as soon as the next election happens, the whole peaceful council system is going to turn fall apart. The rich lords and ladies will fight over power while the small folk continue to toil and live their lives no matter who is ruling. And the wheel keeps rolling.

To be honest, I was always a bit confused by what Dany meant when she proposed "breaking the wheel." What was her goal? What did she mean by "liberating" the rest of Westeros? From whom? Was she planning on killing all the highborns and dispersing their wealth among the peasants? It seemed like she wanted to retain power and rule over everyone, so how is that making any kind of progress?

In regards to Bran, I do not see him as a villain, schemer, mastermind, or anything of that sort. To me, he seems to be a very passive and detached character who watches events unfold from a neutral standpoint with no personal objectives or ambitions.  He lets people make their own decisions and watches things play out as they will.

[Lord Lyman]

I was expecting the Dragon Reborn to show up at some point.

[Kajjo]

28 minutes ago, 420faceless said:

as some characters seem to think a wheel has been broken metaphorically

Yeah, not really, an election of a King will not change so much. Maybe it is a step in the right direction, maybe not even so.

19 minutes ago, Pacala said:

breaking the wheel or changing the world is an illusion.

I believe so, too. Good intentions, but unrealistic.

What's more imprtant is that Daenerys just talked about breaking a wheel, but she wanted to be an absolute emperor, killing whoever not bending their knee to her. What kind of wheel did she want to break? And she has no offspring, so the Game of Thrones would have continued anyway.

[Forlong the Fat]

Dany's vision of breaking the wheel became paradoxical--I'm going to make everyone be nice by forcing them to be nice in precisely the way I think they should be nice.

In the end they did a bit better, but it's still messy.  For example, imagine 25 years in the future and Bran dies after doing a good job. Gendry has also done a good job and he's a powerful lord with a claim to the throne. Sansa also has done a good job and she has heirs who would be good candidates. The Dornish want their turn as well. 

It will be very difficult for Bran to make their plan stick in a meaningful way.

[robasp2]

1 hour ago, 420faceless said:

It's interesting, as some characters seem to think a wheel has been broken metaphorically, but all the evidence suggests that everything almost has slipped back into place again.

This could in fact be a plot of Bran's to bring everything back into this synergy, and shows even more why he is in the power seat.
Perhaps Bran is representative of this wheel and Dany was the threat...there's a lot of places to go here, I'm just getting the wheel rolling.

The thing to note here is that the council elects only the king amongst the heads of several houses.

The houses themselves continue to be monarchies.

So it won't be long until one house obtains more wealth and power and decides they need more power.

Then before you know it, this one's on top and that one's on top and on and on it spins

[Pacala]

1 minute ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Dany's vision of breaking the wheel became paradoxical--I'm going to make everyone be nice by forcing them to be nice in precisely the way I think they should be nice.

In the end they did a bit better, but it's still messy.  For example, imagine 25 years in the future and Bran dies after doing a good job. Gendry has also done a good job and he's a powerful lord with a claim to the throne. Sansa also has done a good job and she has heirs who would be good candidates. The Dornish want their turn as well. 

It will be very difficult for Bran to make their plan stick in a meaningful way.

You forget about the mob, crowd, peoples of Westeros. Does they don`t have dreams, desires, etc ? what about Iron Bank.

this end contradict the whole story.

[Raksha 2014]

6 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Dany's vision of breaking the wheel became paradoxical--I'm going to make everyone be nice by forcing them to be nice in precisely the way I think they should be nice.

In the end they did a bit better, but it's still messy.  For example, imagine 25 years in the future and Bran dies after doing a good job. Gendry has also done a good job and he's a powerful lord with a claim to the throne. Sansa also has done a good job and she has heirs who would be good candidates. The Dornish want their turn as well. 

It will be very difficult for Bran to make their plan stick in a meaningful way.

In the next 25 years, Bran can advise Sansa and Gendry to marry their children; and the resulting firstborn of that union could be the next ruler of the six kingdoms (or seven if the North eventually wants back in).  But seriously, Gendry is not going to become a powerful lord unless he gets the acceptance of the remaining Baratheon bannermen; which is unlikely (he's an illiterate bastard from Flea Bottom) unless he marries one of their daughters or sisters.  

Possibly Bran (and Davos) can slowly bring in some representatives of merchants and guilds (middle class) onto the council; and hire more "new men" (i.e. men, or women, of humble origins, as Henry VII and Henry VIII did) in the crown's administrative duties; so that a parliament might eventually be formed, not immediately, but taking steps toward it.

[Forlong the Fat]

7 minutes ago, Pacala said:

You forget about the mob, crowd, peoples of Westeros. Does they don`t have dreams, desires, etc ? what about Iron Bank.

this end contradict the whole story.

How does it contradict the story? In the end there is a tenuous ruler who will be threatened by all of the factors that have always threatened stability.

[Pacala]

1 minute ago, Forlong the Fat said:

How does it contradict the story? In the end there is a tenuous ruler who will be threatened by all of the factors that have always threatened stability.

They tried to make this big symbolism shit with false idea that each character react as a real person. Apparently the Atomic Bomb is the only one with human emotions but dosen`t give a shit. If Drogon was so smart, he could have easily melt down the center of power before Danny going mad on the false presumption she is going to break the wheel. Remember, this story does not have heroes or villains.

[Martyn Bull]

20 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Dany's vision of breaking the wheel became paradoxical--I'm going to make everyone be nice by forcing them to be nice in precisely the way I think they should be nice.

Yes to this. It should have notified us for a long time that she might not be the savior of Westeros, but part of the problem herself: I'm going to save you from yourself because I have this claim I've inherited from a king you disposed because he tried to burn down a city.

I think the "democracy" part was done quick and dirty (like a lot in the last seasons), but in the novels (if we get them), I think GRRM can make it work. Think of the resolution as something aka Magna Carta - one of the steps on the way from despotic monarchy to a constitutional one. The king's powers are somehow being more regulated by laws - much more space for doing that in text than on screen. Dany taking control would actually be a step back towards ABSOLUTE monarchy.

[Erkan12]

2 hours ago, 420faceless said:

It's interesting, as some characters seem to think a wheel has been broken metaphorically, but all the evidence suggests that everything almost has slipped back into place again.

This could in fact be a plot of Bran's to bring everything back into this synergy, and shows even more why he is in the power seat.
Perhaps Bran is representative of this wheel and Dany was the threat...there's a lot of places to go here, I'm just getting the wheel rolling.

Yeah they break the wheel;

A-) 6 kingdoms will choose their own king or queen by election, there will be no royal house.

B-) The North seperated from the wheel.

[Ice Queen]

30 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Yeah they break the wheel;

A-) 6 kingdoms will choose their own king or queen by election, there will be no royal house.

B-) The North seperated from the wheel.

And yet, nothing changed in the North. It is still ruled by a Stark through primogeniture. After Bran, she's next in line. 

[Nerevanin]

The wheel is unbreakable. Although it seems that currently all the (big) lords are more or less only the good guys, there is no guarantee that it will continue like this in the next generation or the following one. The election of kings / queens isn't sustainable either. Sooner or later a king will have children and will try to secure the power for them and you have a ruling dynasty again. As for the stories told and written about the 8 seasons, I would go as far as saying that in 100 years or so most people wouldn't believe that there was a girl who woke up petrified dragon eggs or a boy who was murdered and brought back to life, let alone an army of dead. It all comes back to where it began, just the names and faces changed.

[Ice Queen]

I think the lesson here is that you can't break the wheel. Ever. Human nature won't allow it. Those who claim to want to break it or burn the system down are just tyrannical egomaniacs. And yet, they manage to charm enough people into believing they mean it. This has real world implications even now. The rise of authoritarianism around the world is built on the lie that someone wants to change the world, that he (or she) and he alone knows what's best. And people fall for it in enough numbers that it should scare the shit out of everyone. 

[Erkan12]

15 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

And yet, nothing changed in the North. It is still ruled by a Stark through primogeniture. After Bran, she's next in line. 

• Not paying any taxes to the crown
• Not sending any armies for the crown

Being an independent kingdom is an entirely different thing. 

[Ice Queen]

Just now, Erkan12 said:

• Not paying any taxes
• Not sending any armies for the crown

Being an independent kingdom is an entirely different thing. 

The people will still pay taxes to Winterfell, though. Sansa gets a tax cut. The little folks, not so much. 

[Pacala]

1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

I think the lesson here is that you can't break the wheel. Ever. Human nature won't allow it. Those who claim to want to break it or burn the system down are just tyrannical egomaniacs. And yet, they manage to charm enough people into believing they mean it. This has real world implications even now. The rise of authoritarianism around the world is built on the lie that someone wants to change the world, that he (or she) and he alone knows what's best. And people fall for it in enough numbers that it should scare the shit out of everyone. 

I don`t think Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, etc. are, were tyrans. Some changed the world and they didn`t destroyed.

Leading people dosen`t necessary mean changing the world.

[Erkan12]

Just now, Ice Queen said:

The people will still pay taxes to Winterfell, though. Sansa gets a tax cut. The little folks, not so much. 

What? I meant not paying taxes to the crown, to the KL...

That's economically a great advantage.