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gregg22

The Storytelling is bad, not the story

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It just feels like these characters got butchered by complete laziness. I mean the foundation of the narrative, the event that this entire story is predicated is, and always has been, the parentage of Jon Snow. That story started Robert's rebellion, and the complexities of it effected every main character to their core.  Ned's move, was the greatest play in the "Game of Thrones" and nobody new it. Jon's story is the most incredible and complex. I don't care where anyone ended up, that's not the point. I NEVER GOT TO UNDERSTAND HOW JON FELT ABOUT ANY OF IT!!! The guy spends his life wondering who his mother is, then he finds out it the most mind blowing answer possible, and we get NOTHING. It was D&D's to make us feel it, and its like it didn't matter. Who did this guy feel like he was? How did it make him feel? Was he mad? Sad? Happy? Does he think about his real father? I have no fucking idea. After the things Dany has seen, and been through, for Missandei's beheading to drive her mad is not believable at all.

Jon said he loved Dany, but I did didn't feel that either.  Forget about their romantic relationship, THEY NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THEIR DAMN HOUSE!. They never even touched on the fact that they were the last two Targaryans alive, like it didn't matter. Dany's decent into madness was SO RUSHED for no good reason. She never even acknowledged the fact that she thought she has no family left, and now she does. Think back, family meant something to her character, it doesn't make sense.

Maybe it hurt that there was no real chemistry there between Jon and Dany, which is why I dont understand why having to kill Dany seemed to break to him. This is the guy that killed Qhorin Halfhand, a mentor and brother, just to infiltrate the wildings. He watched his men fill his lover (Ygritte) with arrows. He put an arrow in mance rayder's heart to stop him from burning. He beheaded Janos Slynt for being insubordinate. He looked Olly ( a boy) in the eyes  and hung him. The guy has been killing people because it was the right thing to do for a while now. He supposedly "killed the boy" a long time ago, so it doesn't make sense.

I mean come on, Grey Worm is cutting throats left and right, but Jon he takes prisoner for killing their queen? Nobody at this "great council" mentions that Jon is Aegon? ITS CENTRAL TO THE PLOT!!! Sam spoke for Jon the whole damn series, and now all he's got to say is some crap about democracy? Why didn't they just use that opportunity to wade into the debate on the merits of the electoral college for fucks sake? [sarcasm people]. Then there was so much that wasn't earned. I mean come on, Highgarden is really going to accept Bronn? 

It just feels like they could have done so much more for these characters with the 4 more episodes that they were offered.

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Couldn't agree more. I was never a fan of Jon in either the show or the books, but as R+L=J was confirmed and I began to see a tragic ending coming I had so much hope for his character arc. In the end, what did we get of that? "She's my Queen". I get that Jon isn't supposed to be the most complex of personalities, and in a way that's part of his charm, but the other characters didn't even engage with his identity either, beyond it being a plot device for Muhahaha Evil Darth Dany. Such a wasted opportunity. Kit was great in the role, but I really hope that the books will be able to explain satisfactorily why a) they wouldn't simply marry and b) he gets to run away from his duty (heir to the throne) so easily.

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I tend to agree.  If/when the books are finished I expect they mostly end up in a similar (not necessarily identical) place but that the story itself makes far more sense.

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Yeah, this is it. I think this could play out very similar in the books and it actually work because it will go into detail, build towards these plots and explain everything. It wont leave you to just assume whats happened or wonder why anything that has happened has because it makes no sense so even if they go this same route in the books I think itll be much better.

This was just cashed in on in the end, the writers went of the boil or couldn't do the job and I think even the actors/actresses started to call it in a bit because you can tell they thought it was shit as well. They still acted well but imagine being told your script and being like, whats this, none of it makes any sense? It'd be demoralising as hell after spending a decade playing that character.

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I agree wholeheartedly - bad storytelling of a good story. But then, if D&D had the mad storytelling skills of Martin, they'd have books of their own and wouldn't be adapting other writers' works. Without Martin's roadmap and amazing dialog to follow in those later seasons, they were sure to muck it up, and they did. Those fans who have never read the books do not understand how much the dialog was taken straight from the books in those first four seasons.

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They simply bailed on this show. The idea that after S6 they could properly conclude it in 13 episodes (meaning 82% of the series is complete before Dany even reaches Westeros) is incompetence at best. 

I'm grateful they got the thing in production. I respect that as showrunners they wrote 80-90% of every season on top of all other producer duties. Despite the occasional gaffe, they were doing a fine job translating GRRMs world to TV.  Scenes like Robert/Cersei, Robert/Selmy/Jaime, Tywin/Jaime, Tywin/Arya were great because of believable and relevant dialogue. They are capable of writing, they just didn't. Nor did they care to secure the time it should take to do it the right way, as HBO offered. 

Look, I'm all for making career moves, whatever it is, their business, good for them.  But to compromise at this phase?  S8 feels like practice for Star Wars - visually impressive films, not to be bogged down with the details this story required.  

Why? Because HBO turned down Confederate? Was this malicious? Endzone was wide open man, all they had to do was not fumble.  And at the one yard line they dropkicked the ball into the fucking crowd. Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. Oh, well. 

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5 hours ago, gregg22 said:

...

Jon said he loved Dany, but I did didn't feel that either.  Forget about their romantic relationship, THEY NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THEIR DAMN HOUSE!. They never even touched on the fact that they were the last two Targaryans alive, like it didn't matter...

To me, this is an extremely important point that relates to other highly important points, none of which get adequate attention and analysis. The world building of GoT was really good. The treatment of this well-built world in the last few seasons has been pathetic, not even a zero on a scale of 1 to 10. This is one of the main reasons why so many characters have become so silly and weak. Unbelievably, just about everyone has lost any deep knowledge of and dedication to the institutions and traditions of the Seven Kingdoms. Cersei LANNISTER as heir to the Baratheon throne is beyond goofy. In any properly constructed tale, the woman would not have remained alive two days, much less held onto power. But the writers painted themselves into a corner. In order to keep the story from coming to a crashing halt, they had to do more beyond-goofy things. 

Randyl Tarly and the other traitors accept Cersei as ruler. Then they go marching across open country, ignoring the fact that their new enemy has three flying, fire-breathing monsters. (They have one untested weapon stored in a wooden wagon.) These buffoons not only don't care for Westerosi laws, they have somehow forgotten Westerosi history. It is beyond comprehension that none of them know the significance of the Field of Fire. Clear across the continent, the formerly intelligent Queen of Thrones, waits patiently for a "surprise attack" that would have taken at least a month to develop. Neither she nor her lieutenants in the cardboard castle manned by wimps know that they are supposed to "call the banners."  

Thus, it is not surprising that Varys and Tyrion turn into incredible morons. In addition to employing ridiculous strategy, they have little actual comprehension of the phrase "for the realm." Jon and Dany don't talk about the future of House Targaryen, and their worthless "advisers" also fail to do so. Jon doesn't want to be with Daenerys. Who gives a damn? It's not a question of what you want. Stannis Baratheon was far from perfect, but he grasped this important point well. So "the man who would not be king" was born in the North? This is not important, scarcely relevant. There are horrible things about to take place, and the two jackasses who make up the most important part of Dany's council just throw away a possible solution. Talk to the two would (or would not) be rulers about a joint monarchy. Press the matter hard. Really line out what is at stake. Tell them it can be a formality--separate beds, hell, separate bedrooms if necessary. Dany won't like this, but that, once again, is not important. Being a monarch is not just a fun thing, nor a title that is due you. It is a responsibility to the realm. If the last two Targaryens can't or won't accept this, then it is obviously time for a change of dynasty. 

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, ComfyLettuce said:

They simply bailed on this show. The idea that after S6 they could properly conclude it in 13 episodes (meaning 82% of the series is complete before Dany even reaches Westeros) is incompetence at best. 

I'm grateful they got the thing in production. I respect that as showrunners they wrote 80-90% of every season on top of all other producer duties. Despite the occasional gaffe, they were doing a fine job translating GRRMs world to TV.  Scenes like Robert/Cersei, Robert/Selmy/Jaime, Tywin/Jaime, Tywin/Arya were great because of believable and relevant dialogue. They are capable of writing, they just didn't. Nor did they care to secure the time it should take to do it the right way, as HBO offered. 

Look, I'm all for making career moves, whatever it is, their business, good for them.  But to compromise at this phase?  S8 feels like practice for Star Wars - visually impressive films, not to be bogged down with the details this story required.  

Why? Because HBO turned down Confederate? Was this malicious? Endzone was wide open man, all they had to do was not fumble.  And at the one yard line they dropkicked the ball into the fucking crowd. Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. Oh, well. 

I don't think "bail" is the word I'd use, but I do think they were pretty tired of the Show and wanted to wrap it off as quickly as possible. But those 13 episodes were actually quite longer than the other ones we've had before. These 6 episodes are over 7 hours, while some of the earlier 10 episodes seasons are just over 9. It's a matter of pacing, and storytelling, not necessarily length. 

But what you say is quite important, and I mention it because it's an aspect of the story that will have to be resolved on the books too. I really doubt Martin is able to fisnish ASOIAF with just 2 more books. This is something many people have pointed out over the years: Dany is nowhere near to Westeros by the end of ADWD, Jon's just beeen stabbed, etc.

I think that's been the curse of both books and show since the beginning. Dany reaching Westeros is the key to all of this. 

That's the main problem Martin's having with Winds I believe. I really think he doesn't know how to properly conclude the series...he knows the ending, but the road...that's another story. 

 

Edited by Ingelheim

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That's true about the amount of hours at their disposal, but the episodes w/ a singular focus, i.e. a battle, kidnapping a wight, S7 and S8 had a few at various runtimes.  They are well done but other aspects of the story stagnate and suffer with too few episodes. 

What is it, 25 POV's between AFFC/ADWD vs. 10 in AGOT?  God speed George, you maniac. 

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