My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

[Red Dragon10]

29 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Sure. But so did everyone else's ruthlessness. 

In the last scene, they could have swapped Dany with any other character - Tyrion, Arya, even Jon - and we would have had the same discussion about them.

Really?  Any other character?  What things did Jon do that were cold and ruthless, without batting an eye? 

[Davidlopan]

9 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Did you? Then you rightfully feel so.

OK, I myself enjoyed the master of the Unsullied being burned by the dragon. Yes, I also appreciated a lot of Arya's vengeance kills. 

However, I didn't appreciate crucifying arbitrary masters just as a statement. I never appreciated her pep-talks about burning down cities and destroying houses of stone. This was always creepy and many people understood it as such.

War is a dirty trade, but her willingness to destroy whole cities was mentioned so often... why do you think there have been dozens of Youtube videos predicting Queen of Ashes / Mad Queen or the like? It was possible to get the clues.

Daenerys was just to cute, to charasmatic as actress for many to see the truth about her. 

 

Fair enough, but I thought I was enjoying a Tall Tale... This sudden coercive attempt to examine one's conscience and make a subsequent Act of Contrition just felt insulting. It certainly subverted expectations though 

[King Ned Stark]

52 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I think there IS a difference between how Daenerys often killed people and how most of the characters on the show killed people.  Her methods and total lack of feeling towards those she felt deserved it always chilled me.  Crucifixion is supposed to be one of the most painful and drawn out deaths imaginable.  Burning people alive.  Even very early on, her reaction to Viserys being 'crowned' was pretty chilling.  When Arya killed her victims, she sometimes did it in really horrible ways, too.  I disagree that we were to really "cheer" her.  

 I have a hard time believing (but judging from this thread, it's true) that people honestly "cheered" Daenerys when she would kill her enemies in various horrible ways without even batting an eye.  Didn't her ruthlessness ever make you uneasy? 

That said, I also felt that her decent from killing her enemies without mercy, to killing innocent civilians without mercy, was - as almost everyone has been saying - too rapid.  This was the woman who had been broken up over her dragons killing a child.  How many children did she command her dragon to burn in KL?  

But for those who are offended that Tyrion was basically addressing the viewer when he said "we cheered her"...maybe it is worth looking at one's reactions to violent death on screen.  I know it is "just" fiction.  But I do find the exultation over graphic and terrible deaths (even when they are bad people) to be kind of disturbing.   

If Daenerys was supposed to be without a doubt a heroic figure in earlier seasons, why are there quite a few people who didn't like her ruthlessness and her arrogance and felt uneasy at the prospect of her crossing into Westeros to destroy "her enemies"? 

Right.  She was always ruthless to her enemies, Martin just made her initial enemies to be evil people.  For me, it’s a very Martinesque trick to hide her dark side in plain sight.  

She saved Mirri Maz Duur, but Drogo’s horde continued to pillage, rape, and enslave.  Ser Jorah, her closest advisor and friend was a known slaver and she didn’t turn on him until he betrayed her.  

Dany’s greatest feat was smashing the slave trade, but did she do that out of a sense of justice and love for the downtrodden, or because it so closely reminded Dany of herself, and how she was basically sold to a Dothraki warlord?  Was calling herself “Myhsa” to the freed peoples out of love, or because it gave her a messiah complex?  Is it possible that Dany was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, and her ruthlessness was a clue?

Martin basically couched her bad qualities by giving her such horrible enemies to face; Gregor Clegane writ large.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

She just threatened to do so and her advisers talked her out of it. Barely so, sometimes. 

It was possible to understand from what kind of wood she is made. many understood it. The fanboys now moan.

Show it, don't say it.

As it happens, her plan at the start of Season 7, to fly to Kings Landing and torch the Red Keep, would have ended the war in half an hour, with far fewer casualties than were actually incurred.  Tyrion gave her consistently bad advice.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Really?  Any other character?  What things did Jon do that were cold and ruthless, without batting an eye? 

Hanging a 12 year old, which, while justified in the context of this world, was also pure fanservice.

[Kajjo]

4 minutes ago, Davidlopan said:

This sudden coercive attempt to examine one's conscience and make a subsequent Act of Contrition just felt insulting.

Hm, I recommend not to feel insulted, but educated and entertained. It is nice to suddenly comprehend what might feel good or sound good is not good after all. Such a moral of a fairy tale is awesome. If they succeeded, then enjoy it. You are not alone. You learned from it. Everything's fine.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Daenerys is a prime example for it.

She actually has warm-hearted feelings sometimes, but she obviously from the beginning on showed traits of violence, brutality and ruthlessness.

3 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

She was always ruthless to her enemies, Martin just made her initial enemies to be evil people.  For me, it’s a very Martinesque trick to hide her dark side in plain sight.

That's it. Very good summary. GRRM did well.

4 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

 Is it possible that Dany was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, and her ruthlessness was a clue?

Yes, I see it that way.

[Vanadis]

2 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Really?  Any other character?  What things did Jon do that were cold and ruthless, without batting an eye? 

Killed Olly.

1 minute ago, Davidlopan said:

Fair enough, but I thought I was enjoying a Tall Tale... This sudden coercive attempt to examine one's conscience and make a subsequent Act of Contrition just felt insulting. It certainly subverted expectations though 

I don't think it subverted expectations, it just felt cheap.

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The road to tyranny is gradual.  They had six seasons to actually show her becoming Genghis Khan in the East, burning down cities that defied her with women and children trapped inside them , leaving pyramids of skulls in her wake, while persuading herself that she was acting in the greater good, in order that she could remain a character that people could empathise with.   Then, we could have seen her bring such methods with her to Westeros.

But, that would have damaged sales of merchandising, for such an iconic character.

I think the problem is with how they tell stories, at least in the last few seasons.

They try to hide who characters are, or give us reason to believe that other character traits are stronger, so that they can reveal the true nature of the character in a surprise moment.

I feel the last seasons are full of that type of storytelling.

An example of this: Jon says he wants to support Dany even after the horrors she has brought. Tyrion has a long speech about why killing her is the right thing to do. When Jon leaves, he says something about how she is the queen or some such thing. Why? To attempt to hide his intention from the viewer. When he goes to meet Daenerys, we are supposed to think that he will not kill her after all, since she is his queen. Then he takes her in his arms and repeats that she is is queen. And only then does he stab her.

I would have preferred that they didn't try to hide his intention. Don't hide who he is until the very last moment. It would have been much better if he had walked into Tyrion's cell and started the conversation saying "Tyrion, I know what I have to do but I don't know if I can do it."

We don't need surprises. 

Gods, it's as if surprises is the only tool in the storytellers' toolbox. 

[Kajjo]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Show it, don't say it.

I agree with that main principle quite a lot. They did show Daenerys' character well enough. Sometimes dialogue is a way to show it, like someone talking out of outrageous intentions.

Concerning season 8 I agree that it was very rushed. But that does not make the storyline bad, just the telling.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

I would have preferred that they didn't try to hide his intention. Don't hide who he is until the very last moment. It would have been much better if he had walked into Tyrion's cell and started the conversation saying "Tyrion, I know what I have to do but I don't know if I can do it."

Agreed. 

1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

Gods, it's as if surprises is the only tool in the storytellers' toolbox. 

Yes. I can see how people have better ideas of telling, but that does not make the story bad or the character unpredictable.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

I agree with that main principle quite a lot. They did show Daenerys' character well enough. Sometimes dialogue is a way to show it, like someone talking out of outrageous intentions.

Concerning season 8 I agree that it was very rushed. But that does not make the storyline bad, just the telling.

The thing is, probably you or I would talk about razing our enemies' cities to the ground if we were hiding from incendiary bombs that they were lobbing all around us (as in Season 6, Episode 9).  We might not mean it literally.

They should have shown her doing it, while looking on impassively as civilians burn.

As it happens, I think Daenerys will take a very dark turn in TWOW, if it's ever published, but it will take place over the course of the novel.

[Vanadis]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Agreed. 

Yes. I can see how people have better ideas of telling, but that does not make the story bad or the character unpredictable.

We will have to agree to disagree 

To me, it seems like we started watching a complex GRR Martin story and finished watching a fairytale for kids... And in the shift, all the characters suffered.

I'm so grateful to the actors though who truly stuck with it to the end and gave excellent performances.

[Kajjo]

Just now, SeanF said:

As it happens, I think Daenerys will take a very dark turn in TWOW, if it's ever published, but it will take place over the course of the novel.

Yes, I expect so, too. The books will be subtle as well, surprises are valid, but he will build up better to it.

[Davidlopan]

11 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Hm, I recommend not to feel insulted, but educated and entertained. It is nice to suddenly comprehend what might feel good or sound good is not good after all. Such a moral of a fairy tale is awesome. If they succeeded, then enjoy it. You are not alone. You learned from it. Everything's fine.

It was the terrible storytelling, and the sudden attempt to make this a morality tale, that I found insulting (and surprising!). I'm a huge fan of rug-pulling and revelation, if handled competently in a story and built into the fabric of the drama, but the need to use Tyrion to awkwardly point out why we need to revise our opinion of Dany was pretty cheap

[sifth]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hanging a 12 year old, which, while justified in the context of this world, was also pure fanservice.

You mean a kid who joined a military order and committed treason? Are you trying to justify treason?

[Davidlopan]

13 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

I don't think it subverted expectations, it just felt cheap.

I agree. It was the sudden heavy-handed moralism that I found surprising 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Davidlopan said:

heavy-handed moralism

Heavy-handed? Now you exaggerate. 

Daenerys burned down whole King's Landing. They cite a few prior events to remind people who might have forgotten. 

This is neither heavy-handed nor extreme moralism.

Not burning down cities is not that a crazy form of moralism at all. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

You mean a kid who joined a military order and committed treason? Are you trying to justify treason?

No.  Hanging him was justified in the context of this being a cruel and brutal world.  As is a lot of what Dany did.

In our world, hanging a 12 year old would be a crime, as would be much of what Dany does.

[sifth]

13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Agreed. 

Yes. I can see how people have better ideas of telling, but that does not make the story bad or the character unpredictable.

I sort of hate this so called “trick”, it feels cheap and makes Jon look dumb.

[Erkan12]

I think Targaryens are showing their true nature when they face with the tragic incidents.

I would say for King Aerys is that

- He felt incompetent when people say his hand Tywin Lannister is successfully ruling the 7 kingdoms and not Aerys and not only that Tywin was married with Joanna, a woman that Aerys wanted,

- Secondly he lost a son and then executed the wet nurse for that and tortured people for that,

- And lastly he has been captured by the Lords of Duskandale and imprisoned for 6 months, I think after that he totally gone mad and his Targaryen coin showed its true face.

The snapping points for Daenarys were;

- The failure of Tyrion, when he was outwitted by the Lannisters, they lost the allies from the Iron Islands, Dorne and the Highgarden, and she blamed Tyrion only and she was enraged, and she even blamed him for protecting his family.

- Losing Viserion to the Night King and army of the dead, it must be a big shock to her to see such a supernatural threat in Westeros

- Occurrence of Jon's secret identity as a Targaryen, to learn that she isn't the only Targaryen and there is someone with better claim than hers after so many things she did for the Iron Throne

- Then again, losing her best friend and another Dragon, and then she executes Varys as well.

These incident pushed her to lose control, and she basically turned into another mad Targaryen, even Jon, someone she loves according to her, failed to convince her to spare her enemies lives and she didn't want to show any mercy and she wasn't going to show any mercy in the future, and she would continue to burn her enemies like mad King did, the only difference is that Aerys had pyromancers, she had a Dragon.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

I sort of hate this so called “trick”, it feels cheap and makes Jon look dumb.

The show portrayed Jon as not to be the sharpest tool in the shed. He has honor and loyalty and he suffers from it again and again. 

I sincerely hope he finds his peace in the North and has left the Night's Watch. That would be a turning point for him.