My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

[Martyn Bull]

4 minutes ago, tallTale said:

WUT.

What if what you want is also an order?

OK. I was a little bit quick there. What I meant is that disobeying an order is something that is illegal in most military systems. You might not like the order, it might be dangerous, but you know BEFORE you disobey it, that it is illegal. A lot of Dany's "laws" are simply made up by her on the spot. She WANTS the Tarlys to bend the knee, therefor she decides that it's bend the knee or die. I would say there is a difference.

 

12 minutes ago, tallTale said:

 Again, they were at war. A defeated house can't just say we refuse to serve and everything just goes back to the way things were before. 

You said: "And a tyrant would have just murdered them without even giving them a choice." I disagree, I think a tyrant would do exactly what Dany did. Give them a choice: "join or die".

But yes, I agree that the execution in itself isn't "tyrannical".

[Br16]

13 hours ago, tallTale said:

They were houses at war. Jon executed Janos Slynt for simply  refusing an order, but is never labeled a tyrant.

I feel Nights Watch was most likely governed by some form of military law, which is always harsher than civilian law. So while Janos would merely be considered rude in the civilian sphere, his twice refusal of a legal order that befits his rank as an officer: to command, garrison and rebuild Greyguard (thus reinforcing NW's left flank), and his willful disregard of the LC's lawful command authority could easily be a capital offense. 

Also, in the world Daenerys and Tarly were in, Dany probably did not consider Tarly to be a combatant with right to be a POW (if that concept even existed in Westeros). She may have considered this a judicial matter where she is and always was the rightful sovereign, and he in open rebellion (guilty of treason), a capital offense.  The offering of a pardon was probably already generous in her mind, and certainly in line with standard practice of how historical monarchies treated opposition from armed nobility. 

So tyrannical by our standards, but merely "strong leadership" by Westerosi standards. 

[sifth]

25 minutes ago, Br16 said:

monarchies

 

25 minutes ago, Br16 said:

I feel Nights Watch was most likely governed by some form of military law, which is always harsher than civilian law. So while Janos would merely be considered rude in the civilian sphere, his twice refusal of a legal order that befits his rank as an officer: to command, garrison and rebuild Greyguard (thus reinforcing NW's left flank), and his willful disregard of the LC's lawful command authority could easily be a capital offense. 

Also, in the world Daenerys and Tarly were in, Dany probably did not consider Tarly to be a combatant with right to be a POW (if that concept even existed in Westeros). She may have considered this a judicial matter where she is and always was the rightful sovereign, and he in open rebellion (guilty of treason), a capital offense.  The offering of a pardon was probably already generous in her mind, and certainly in line with standard practice of how historical monarchies treated opposition from armed nobility. 

So tyrannical by our standards, but merely "strong leadership" by Westerosi standards. 

She gave the Tarly’s 3 choices, 1) keep all your lands and titles and just come work for me, 2) join the Nights Watch and keep your honor  and live, 3) do neither and die.

Honestly this felt like a pretty fair deal all around. These people tried to kill her earlier that day and are responsible for betraying and killing Ollena, yet Dany still gave them two chances to live.

[Br16]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

She gave the Tarly’s 3 choices, 1) keep all your lands and titles and just come work for me, 2) join the Nights Watch and keep your honor  and live, 3) do neither and die.

Honestly this felt like a pretty fair deal all around. These people tried to kill her earlier that day and are responsible for betraying and killing Ollena, yet Dany still gave them two chances to live.

Agree, it really was a fair deal. This is just how Absolute Monarchies work and the pardon was already a generous discretionary extra. He could probably have asked for Lord Paramount after some time of loyal service and he would get it.

[RYShh]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

She gave the Tarly’s 3 choices, 1) keep all your lands and titles and just come work for me, 2) join the Nights Watch and keep your honor  and live, 3) do neither and die.

Honestly this felt like a pretty fair deal all around. These people tried to kill her earlier that day and are responsible for betraying and killing Ollena, yet Dany still gave them two chances to live.

She couldn't send Randyll to Night's Watch when the Taryls's still have a Queen, the war wasn't over yet and Ranyll's Queen was still alive. Tyrion's proposal was stupid and a desperate one because Tyrion knew that Daenerys will not hold any prisoners, Tyrion was pushing the boundaries.

Sending someone to Night's Watch is only possible by royal decree (which Daenerys wasn't her queen), or after the war is over and the new monarch can give that option to the prisoners of the losing side, if the winner of a battle can send other prisoners to the Night's Watch before the war is over then Robb or Tywin would do that their prisoners several times befor , both of their cells were overflown by the prisoners.

''Tywin: What's this?

The Mountain:  We weren't expecting you till tomorrow, Lord Tywin.

Tywin: Evidently not. Why are these prisoners not in their cells?

The Mountain:  Cells are overflowing, my lord.''

-S02E04 

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, RYShh said:

She couldn't send Randyll to Night's Watch when the Taryls's still have a Queen, the war wasn't over yet and Ranyll's Queen was still alive. Tyrion's proposal was stupid and a desperate one because Tyrion knew that Daenerys will not hold any prisoners, Tyrion was pushing the boundaries.

Sending someone to Night's Watch is only possible by royal decree (which Daenerys wasn't her queen), or after the war is over and the new monarch can give that option to the prisoners of the losing side, if the winner of a battle can send other prisoners to the Night's Watch before the war is over then Robb or Tywin would do that their prisoners several times befor , both of their cells were overflown by the prisoners.

''Tywin: What's this?

The Mountain:  We weren't expecting you till tomorrow, Lord Tywin.

Tywin: Evidently not. Why are these prisoners not in their cells?

The Mountain:  Cells are overflowing, my lord.''

-S02E04 

Pretty sure anyone with power can send someone to The Watch. Most southern lords just don’t care, because it takes so much effort to get them to the Wall. 

[Br16]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

Pretty sure anyone with power can send someone to The Watch. Most southern lords just don’t care, because it takes so much effort to get them to the Wall. 

This is true, for example NW brother Pypar was sent to the wall after being falsely accused of theft of silverware by a noblemen at Acorn Hall, after Pypar refused his lewd overtures.  

25 minutes ago, RYShh said:

She couldn't send Randyll to Night's Watch when the Taryls's still have a Queen, the war wasn't over yet and Ranyll's Queen was still alive. Tyrion's proposal was stupid and a desperate one because Tyrion knew that Daenerys will not hold any prisoners, Tyrion was pushing the boundaries.

Sending someone to Night's Watch is only possible by royal decree (which Daenerys wasn't her queen), or after the war is over and the new monarch can give that option to the prisoners of the losing side, if the winner of a battle can send other prisoners to the Night's Watch before the war is over then Robb or Tywin would do that their prisoners several times befor , both of their cells were overflown by the prisoners.

 ''Tywin: What's this?

The Mountain:  We weren't expecting you till tomorrow, Lord Tywin.

Tywin: Evidently not. Why are these prisoners not in their cells?

The Mountain:  Cells are overflowing, my lord.''

-S02E04 

I agree that it was a last ditch mercy suggestion from Tyrion. However, from Daenerys' perspective, Cersei was a usurper and she (Dany) was the one and only legit sovereign. So  she considers her edicts and decrees to have de jure legal effect across all seven kingdoms, even if she knows the de facto situation can make things tricky. For example, the Gendry legitimization. 

 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Br16 said:

This is true, for example NW brother Pypar was sent to the wall after being falsely accused of theft of silverware by a noblemen at Acorn Hall, after Pypar refused his lewd overtures.  

I agree that it was a last ditch mercy suggestion from Tyrion. However, from Daenerys' perspective, Cersei was a usurper and she (Dany) was the one and only legit sovereign. So  she considers her edicts and decrees to have de jure legal effect across all seven kingdoms, even if she knows the de facto situation can make things tricky. For example, the Gendry legitimization. 

This act caused Sam to reject her as queen and to push for Jon over her - something the other characters were willing to do as well. What did Dany even gain by doing this? It seems like she actually lost more ground. It's a prototypical Ozymandias. Look on her works and despair...at how transitory and fragile her power actually is. 

[The One Who Kneels]

32 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This act caused Sam to reject her as queen and to push for Jon over her - something the other characters were willing to do as well. What did Dany even gain by doing this? It seems like she actually lost more ground. It's a prototypical Ozymandias. Look on her works and despair...at how transitory and fragile her power actually is. 

Logically it would've substantially bolstered her position and caused mass defections to her side. She had just crushed Cersei's army and demonstrated the power of dragons, showed that those lords serving Cersei could bend the knee to her and maintain their positions and that those who persisted in defiance would lose at a minimum their titles and possibly everything. It didn't only because the entire Cersei vs. Daenerys conflict is a poorly written farce. 

Another question to pose is what would Daenerys lose by not doing it? Jailing a lord who insults you and rejects your offers of mercy until he reconsiders would've led to a perception that Daenerys is a very weak ruler who can be defied and ignored without serious consequences. 

[Br16]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This act caused Sam to reject her as queen and to push for Jon over her - something the other characters were willing to do as well. What did Dany even gain by doing this? It seems like she actually lost more ground. It's a prototypical Ozymandias. Look on her works and despair...at how transitory and fragile her power actually is. 

Well, opposition from Randyll Tarly is very dangeorus, he is basically the most able, respected and effective military commander in the Reach. The only man to defeat Robert in Battle. As long as he is alive and ideologically opposed to Daenerys, he could raise a new host from Horn Hill, and his reputation alone would probably be enough to intimidate the other Reach Houses from easily siding with Daenerys. Reach armies were massive, but not  very tough or battle hardened. Given house Tarly's martial traditions, his troops were  most likely the best in the Reach.

Sam finding out about Jon's parentage was a wild card she could not have foreseen, but it was not the reason she lost. She lost because she was fundamentally altruistic. If she had not fought NK and listened to Olenna over Tyrion, she would have KL and six kingdoms in the bag in no time, and all her dragons would still be there as Qyburn wouldn't have time to perfect or mass produce the scorpions. The NK really only becomes a problem for the South once he approaches Moat Cailin (which as a choke point could he held by the Southern armies). She could easily have just given Jon the Dragon glass and wished him good luck.

[CrypticWeirwood]

4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

She could easily have just given Jon the Dragon glass and wished him good luck.

You mean she could have wished him good fortune in the wars to come. :-)

[Br16]

8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean she could have wished him good fortune in the wars to come. :-)

Precisely! I almost forgot how many times that phrase was used in that polite non committal/sarcastic way Monarchs used to fob each other off. Let the North become one big Nights Watch and somebody else's problem. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

37 minutes ago, Br16 said:

She could easily have just given Jon the Dragon glass and wished him good luck.

The narrative didn't go that way though because she thinks she's a hero and attempts to play that part. If she called herself queen she had a duty to defend the borders of her kingdom. She also got everything she wanted from Jon and even got the North. But, she lost all the good will she gained after the battle by rushing it and making stupid mistakes that only confirmed her instability to the people who were skeptical of her. So now when a weakness opens up (Jon as the rightful heir), they're going to exploit it. The Tarlys would just be another reason to exploit it (for Sam it was mostly about Dickon, not Randyll). If she would have waited a bit, Arya probably would have killed Cersei for her anyway because the conditions of Arya's survival wouldn't have been so dire. Lots of what ifs here, but she's written as a doomed character. "Daughter of death" isnt a triumphant title. 

 

[Br16]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The narrative didn't go that way though because she thinks she's a hero and attempts to play that part. If she called herself queen she had a duty to defend the borders of her kingdom. She also got everything she wanted from Jon and even got the North. But, she lost all the good will she gained after the battle by rushing it and making stupid mistakes that only confirmed her instability to the people who were skeptical of her. So now when a weakness opens up (Jon as the rightful heir), they're going to exploit it. The Tarlys would just be another reason to exploit it (for Sam it was mostly about Dickon, not Randyll). If she would have waited a bit, Arya probably would have killed Cersei for her anyway because the conditions of Arya's survival wouldn't have been so dire. Lots of what ifs here, but she's written as a doomed character. "Daughter of death" isnt a triumphant title. 

 

Agree, it would not be A song of Ice and Fire if Fire refused to fight Ice. Moreover, she's never been one to shirk from duty (i.e. Protector of the Realm) as seen by her anti slavery campaign. 

However, the truth is that the North was not very valuable. Jon's army was fewer than 10,000 men according to Davos before the battle losses. Moreover, if she had waited, the Insular Northerners would probably start melting away than march south. They always just wanted independence and hate going south.  House Glover didn't even bother showing up to fight NK and Jon or Sansa couldn't do anything about it. I read in an article, although I don't remember where, that said if northern forces could go back to their hearth and rest, they would not leave to go south again. 

So I don't blame her for rushing south while she still possessed a silver of initiative, especially as the longer the wait the more scorpions there would be. Also, since Gregor is undead and cannot be easily killed, there is a chance that while the Hound was preoccupied by Lannister Guards and the other 6 queen's guard, Gregor (who is always by her side) might take out Arya after she makes an ill judged leap and stab at him. 

 

[SeanF]

Frank Pentalgili thought that Tom Hagen was making him a decent offer (take your own life, and there'll be no reprisals against your family).

Dany offered Lord Tarly a better deal (bend the knee and you keep your position).  It didn't even occur to her to kill Dickon until he talked himself into it.

In the context of a civil war between two claimants for the Iron Throne, most fair observers would think Dany was being reasonable here, generous even.  A typical medieval monarch would have executed Lord Tarly on the spot, and then told his son he would only get his lands back if he provided years of loyal service first.

[RYShh]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Frank Pentalgili thought that Tom Hagen was making him a decent offer (take your own life, and there'll be no reprisals against your family).

Dany offered Lord Tarly a better deal (bend the knee and you keep your position).  It didn't even occur to her to kill Dickon until he talked himself into it.

In the context of a civil war between two claimants for the Iron Throne, most fair observers would think Dany was being reasonable here, generous even.  A typical medieval monarch would have executed Lord Tarly on the spot, and then told his son he would only get his lands back if he provided years of loyal service first.

Frank Pentangeli was a member of Corleone family, he worked for them for years, then he betrayed them by thinking that they ordered his death while they didn't, so Frank had enough reasons to accept that offer for his honor, and for his Godfather.

Daenerys is nothing to Randyll Tarly, absolutely nothing. A foreign invader with an army of Unsullied and Dothraki savages, That's a matter of honor, not bending knee to the foreign invader and to the savages.

All Daenerys needed to do take prisoners, that's what she should do. That's what people do in Westeros during the wars, Robb did that with the Lannisters, and even Tywin did with his own prisoners. Not taking any prisoners after a battle is something only savages would do.

If she had won the war, and after her coronation she could do that, since there would be no one left to oppose her claim, but only after ending the war, not during the war.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Frank Pentangeli was a member of Corleone family, he worked for them for years, then he betrayed them by thinking that they ordered his death while they didn't, so Frank had enough reasons to accept that offer for his honor, and for his Godfather.

Daenerys is nothing to Randyll Tarly, absolutely nothing. A foreign invader with an army of Unsullied and Dothraki savages, That's a matter of honor, not bending knee to the foreign invader and to the savages.

All Daenerys needed to do take prisoners, that's what she should do. That's what people do in Westeros during the wars, Robb did that with the Lannisters, and even Tywin did with his own prisoners. Not taking any prisoners after a battle is something only savages would do.

If she had won the war, and after her coronation she could do that, since there would be no one left to oppose her claim, but only after ending the war, not during the war.

Robb's men hanged tavern girls.  That's a whole order of magnitude worse. 

Henry IV, Henry VII, and Edward IV made much the same offer as Dany did to their enemies, and they were certainly not the harshest of our medieval rulers.

[Br16]

6 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Frank Pentangeli was a member of Corleone family, he worked for them for years, then he betrayed them by thinking that they ordered his death while they didn't, so Frank had enough reasons to accept that offer for his honor, and for his Godfather.

Daenerys is nothing to Randyll Tarly, absolutely nothing. A foreign invader with an army of Unsullied and Dothraki savages, That's a matter of honor, not bending knee to the foreign invader and to the savages.

Randall Tarly fought for Aerys II against Robert. The Reach was loyalist during Robert's rebellion (though Mace was totally ineffective at Storms End siege). Thus, from Daenerys perspective, Tarly suddenly running to Cersei (in exchange for Warden of the South) was just an opportunistic move. Moreover, feudal societies don't have the concept of nationalism as we know it, all that matters was the bloodline. That's why British Royal Family has heavy German background. 

While Randyll  genuinely held his prejudices (as seen with his reaction to Gilly being a wilding), to say that Daenerys claim meant nothing to him because she was exiled for most of her life seems like an excuse  he uses to protect his pride from feelings of treason. As the last recognized scion of House Targaryen and daughter of Aerys II, Randyll could not deny the legitimacy. 

[RYShh]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Robb's men hanged tavern girls.  That's a whole order of magnitude worse. 

Henry IV, Henry VII, and Edward IV made much the same offer as Dany did to their enemies, and they were certainly not the harshest of our medieval rulers.

Irrelevant. You must be joking if you think Robb ordered to hang those tavern girls, if Robb knew he would hang these men for that crime.

Daenerys specifically killed and executed prisoners, then she did the same at KL.  Both Robb, and even Tywin held prisoners in the war. You're reaching to defend Daenerys.

 

[RYShh]

2 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Randall Tarly fought for Aerys II against Robert. The Reach was loyalist during Robert's rebellion (though Mace was totally ineffective at Storms End siege). Thus, from Daenerys perspective, Tarly suddenly running to Cersei (in exchange for Warden of the South) was just an opportunistic move. Moreover, feudal societies don't have the concept of nationalism as we know it, all that matters was the bloodline. That's why British Royal Family has heavy German background. 

While Randyll  genuinely held his prejudices (as seen with his reaction to Gilly being a wilding), to say that Daenerys claim meant nothing to him because she was exiled for most of her life seems like an excuse  he uses to protect his pride from feelings of treason. As the last recognized scion of House Targaryen and daughter of Aerys II, Randyll could not deny the legitimacy. 

They all fought for Rhaegar, not for Aerys. When Rhaegar died on Trident, it was all over. Even that's irrelevant since House Targaryen lost the crown, lost the IT, and lost Westeros. Taryls were obeying the current ruler of Westeros, and the Iron Throne and the crown.

What Daenerys had? Unsullied army and Dothraki, savages were fighting for Daenerys, not even a Westeros army. Randyll was defending his own country from savages and the beasts that breaths fire. Even at some point Targaryens had to lock all of their dragons in the city, not only using savages also using the dragons could considered as a crime. Tarlys had no reason to bend the knee while their Queen still holds the Iron Throne, Daenerys had no right to execute prisoners, because she wasn't the queen, plain and simple. This the reason why Tyrion and then Varys started to plot against her. Defending Daenerys at this point is totally baseless.