My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

47 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

I don't disagree that this might well be an issue in how it the show has come across, but IMHO I don't think that was meant to be a part of the story when George built this world originally.  Valyria is in Essos as well, with its descendants (Dany's ethnic group) dominating Volantis and the free cities. They are in league with the Ghiscari slavers. In this universe, anyone can be enslaved including "white people" i.e. you have Lyseni (ethnic Valyrian) bed slaves, you have Tyrion and Jorah enslaved. It should not have been a race thing from our real world at all. Unfortunately the show made it look like sinister Middle Eastern looking dudes enslaved Black and I don't know Asian people who had to be rescued by a white woman. There should really have been Valyrian dudes collaborating with the slavers and there should have been more white slaves as well to reflect the world created originally by George.

And Essos overall is not inferior to Wessos, it has better roads, better technology (e.g. Myrish glass I.e. telescopes), cities bigger than Wessos. It was meant to be very different from Wessos of course, but the parallel is not exactly Asia+Africa vs Europe in the 19th to 21st centuries.

Also, on the Valyrians, Targaryens in particular since they're the focus of the stories, their general coloration seemed more like a specific congenital trait, like albinism, then the general appearance of an ethnic group. 

Historically, many cultures have developped prejudices against albinos, in turns claiming them god touched or demon cursed. Could be the Valyrians and their 'magic', imo.

Also, the inbreeding would be an attempt at increasing the prevalence of those physical traits as a visible manifestation of the 'dragon magic'.

The show's presentation of this and it's limited scope of only showing us Aerys and his incest borne children, creates an even more falible image. 

[Ser Hedge]

4 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Also, on the Valyrians, Targaryens in particular since they're the focus of the stories, their general coloration seemed more like a specific congenital trait, like albinism, then the general appearance of an ethnic group. 

Yes, sure. The purple eyes and the silver hair being the traits they sought to preserve.

But just going back to observation about the "white saviour", that should not have been a thing in the universe as originally created. Sure, Essos is a very diverse place, while Westeros north of Dorne appears to be generally similar to medieval Europe, but it was never meant to be about race as we know it in our world.

Dany is never seen as "white" by her freedmen, rather as the blood of old Valyria or even "Westorosi". Her enemies see her as a Dothraki bride perhaps or again associate her with their former Valyrian overlords. Interestingly Dany has Rhoynar blood as well, will be interesting if she brings that up when she goes to free the slaves of Volantis. Anyway, coming back to the point, skin colour is not meant to be a thing on Planetos, but then if you let a couple of hacks handle it on a TV show ......

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

On 6/7/2019 at 8:07 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=asoiaf+is+daenerys+mad+site:asoiaf.westeros.org&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzkYPIqtfiAhUqTBUIHWhOD9cQrQIIHjAA

Its not recent

Folks were analyzing Dany’s character as far back as the mid 2000’s or earlier.  Here is a link to an essay which basically lays out her struggles with moral choices in Meereen.  There is also a reference from a reading by GRRM in an early draft of a chapter in ADWD where he has Dany explicitly saying she feared herself.  It was discussed at that time on these very forums.https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iii-danys-struggle-with-herself/

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Yes, sure. The purple eyes and the silver hair being the traits they sought to preserve.

But just going back to observation about the "white saviour", that should not have been a thing in the universe as originally created. Sure, Essos is a very diverse place, while Westeros north of Dorne appears to be generally similar to medieval Europe, but it was never meant to be about race as we know it in our world.

Dany is never seen as "white" by her freedmen, rather as the blood of old Valyria or even "Westorosi". Her enemies see her as a Dothraki bride perhaps or again associate her with their former Valyrian overlords. Interestingly Dany has Rhoynar blood as well, will be interesting if she brings that up when she goes to free the slaves of Volantis. Anyway, coming back to the point, skin colour is not meant to be a thing on Planetos, but then if you let a couple of hacks handle it on a TV show ......

From a doylist perspective it would be very white savior. The author would borrow those tropes. There's just too many to list. 

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

20 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Folks were analyzing Dany’s character as far back as the mid 2000’s or earlier.  Here is a link to an essay which basically lays out her struggles with moral choices in Meereen.  There is also a reference from a reading by GRRM in an early draft of a chapter in ADWD where he has Dany explicitly saying she feared herself.  It was discussed at that time on these very forums.https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iii-danys-struggle-with-herself/

Here is a link to the poster who was summarizing for others on this forum that reading from an earlier draft. I will also C & P the relevant part.  Interesting that GRRM decided to later change it so it wasn’t so explicit.  Many readers still got it without it being plainly spelled out for them though.  I suspect D & D thought TV viewers would pick up on it too with their writing.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/49-pre-adwd-spoilers-daenerys-2-spoilers-for-adwd/&page=0

 

Dany thinks of her title, "mother of dragons," and wonders if "mother of monsters" is more appropriate. She despairs, thinking about what she may have unleashed on the world. She thinks that she is the blood of the dragon, and that if her children are monsters, then so is she.

She looks at Ser Barristan and tells him that she told Xaro that she feared only one thing, though she would not tell the merchant what. Ser Barristan guesses that she only fears her dragons. 

"Myself," Dany tells him.

 

[Ser Hedge]

51 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

From a doylist perspective it would be very white savior. The author would borrow those tropes. There's just too many to list. 

Can be seen as a generic Messianic trope/theme, doesn't have to be white saviour I think, but I guess there will be different perceptions. 

[Wholala17]

Not Tyrion's fault y'all got tricked into believing the book/show's white feminist propaganda. 

And since I'm damn sure book Daenerys' story ends in a similar/parallel way, I think George RR Martin is a genius fucking writer. He fooled y'all!

[Rast-afari]

I don't feel any guilt for supporting Dany's journey just like I don't feel any guilt for cheering for a modern day action hero/heroine. I mean even movie Batman kills now. With the exception of razing Kings Landing, she, like them, always seemed to portray some sense of justice when doing the the killing.

[Jaghen]

She's not the Hero Westerosi need, she is the one they deserve.

[Rast-afari]

18 hours ago, Jaghen said:

She's not the Hero Westerosi need, she is the one they deserve.

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the Mad Queen.

[SeanF]

Re White Saviourism, I don't recall the scenes where Dany introduced apartheid or eugenics in Slavers Bay.

[Wholala17]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:11 AM, SeanF said:

Re White Saviourism, I don't recall the scenes where Dany introduced apartheid or eugenics in Slavers Bay.

Yeah that's not white saviorism is. What you're referring to is white supremacy. 

White saviorism is like the manifest destiny bs the US used to preach back in the day to justify them sticking their noses in the politics of the other white countries' colonies. Like oh these brown people are so uncultured we gotta save them! Or the memes about white girls going to Africa to "save the children" when in reality they only spend 2 weeks there for their instagram accounts.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/8/2019 at 10:45 AM, NymeriaWarriorQueen said:

Here is a link to the poster who was summarizing for others on this forum that reading from an earlier draft. I will also C & P the relevant part.  Interesting that GRRM decided to later change it so it wasn’t so explicit.  Many readers still got it without it being plainly spelled out for them though.  I suspect D & D thought TV viewers would pick up on it too with their writing.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/49-pre-adwd-spoilers-daenerys-2-spoilers-for-adwd/&page=0

 

Dany thinks of her title, "mother of dragons," and wonders if "mother of monsters" is more appropriate. She despairs, thinking about what she may have unleashed on the world. She thinks that she is the blood of the dragon, and that if her children are monsters, then so is she.

She looks at Ser Barristan and tells him that she told Xaro that she feared only one thing, though she would not tell the merchant what. Ser Barristan guesses that she only fears her dragons. 

"Myself," Dany tells him.

 

Inch resting, I didn't know this. It fits nicely with George saying in 2013 after seeing the Breaking Bad, finale that "Walter White is a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros. I need to do something about that." I think he'll make Dany the worst monster.

[Dominic]

I wonder if I may solicit some comments or suggestions about my slight re-write of the last episode. It is called Finale.pdf  You can get it from here https://www.facebook.com/groups/2204774465/files/  

Or from here :

http://vitalsimulation.com/got/finale.pdf

Apologies in advance, if this is not what this forum is about.

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/19/2019 at 12:35 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Inch resting, I didn't know this. It fits nicely with George saying in 2013 after seeing the Breaking Bad, finale that "Walter White is a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros. I need to do something about that." I think he'll make Dany the worst monster.

Walter White being a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros is quite the achievement. Did he do something like what the Mountain did?

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Walter White being a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros is quite the achievement. Did he do something like what the Mountain did?

Can’t speak for others but I always thought  Walt was worse than a henchman following orders because he did things like poison a child or let Jane die because he thought both things would be best for Jesse. That’s a whole other level of sick. And Dany thinks she’s doing what’s best for others...hmmmm.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Can’t speak for others but I always thought  Walt was worse than a henchman following orders because he did things like poison a child or let Jane die because he thought both things would be best for Jesse. That’s a whole other level of sick. And Dany thinks she’s doing what’s best for others...hmmmm.

IMHO, the character who most resembles Walter White in the books is Tyrion.  There's the same anger, pride, and bitterness.

Tyrion in the show was just an avatar for D & D.  He was sanctified, and bore no relation at all to his book counterpart.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, the character who most resembles Walter White in the books is Tyrion.  There's the same anger, pride, and bitterness.

Tyrion in the show was just an avatar for D & D.  He was sanctified, and bore no relation at all to his book counterpart.

I can see that too, Tyrion is a shit show of a human. However I think GRRM likes him waaaay too much and is going to have him win the game because he wants him to, and his flaws will be swept under the rug. Shae who?

[SeanF]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I can see that too, Tyrion is a shit show of a human. However I think GRRM likes him waaaay too much and is going to have him win the game because he wants him to, and his flaws will be swept under the rug. Shae who?

He likes him, but he's also described him as "the villain, but we all love a good villain."  

Dany, if she breaks bad, would be more like Gandalf or Galadriel, if they had claimed the One Ring, than Walter White.  Completely self-righteous, and convinced that every atrocity was making the world a better place.

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He likes him, but he's also described him as "the villain, but we all love a good villain."  

Dany, if she breaks bad, would be more like Gandalf or Galadriel, if they had claimed the One Ring, than Walter White.  Completely self-righteous, and convinced that every atrocity was making the world a better place.

He's had shady villains as Hand's before, and as much as I don't like it, I think Tyrion is written to resume that post. I can see how he likes his political figures to have a ruthless side - but only insofar as they kill their family members and lovers, not masses of innocent people. Jon did  the former, albeit for better reasons. Still, kinslaying and lover slaying, its fine in GRRM's book apparently. Two things make me think this is the ending for the mains: His comments on his blog about how "IF ANYTHING" we can read about Penny, Victarion, Arianne, ect, in the books to come, and the answer to the question when a journalist asked how he felt about the ending of the show (paraphrasing) "Well I felt the same way I did when I came up with the ending."