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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

And I think you are mistaken, if I may be so bold. 

I think those people who point out that this is not consistent with all her traits, are correct, and that those like you who say the show proved that they were wrong all along, are wrong.

All the show proved was that they stopped caring about who characters are and forced the plot forward, whether it made sense or not.

It saddens me that people use this ending to say "I told you so" to Dany supporter, and I wasn't even a big Dany supporter.

(But I like to think I "support" all the characters.)

we could be in a "agree to disagree" situation... however, there are peoples who, for years, told us this was going to happen... that means one thing, it was all in front of us, and we just could not see it.
But don't worry, that's exactly what the writers wanted. They wanted to trick us into cheering Daenerys, so the clues had to be subtle, they needed it for two reasons. First, for the shock value, it's one of the core elements of Game of Thrones, that's what fuel the buzz around the show, and they need it. And secondly, they needed us to be wrong so they could make us think about ourselves. If there had been too many clues, we would all have guessed what would happen, and we would all be leaving the show reinforced in our belief that we are very good at judgement...
And it would be a terrible idea, because if there is something that History tells us, it's that we have often be very bad at judging peoples... That's why i love that this show is trying to teach us something.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

you see that's where i 50% agree with you, and also, obviously 50% disagree with you.
You think that Ned's beheading, the Red wedding, Oberyn's death were well received because unlike Daenerys turning mad, it was consistent with te characters (Joffrey being evil, Tywin being ruthless and Clegane being brutal).
I see it a bit differently. To me, the "problem" with Daenerys turning mad isn't that it was not consistent with her character, it was, the "problem" is that it was not consistent with what some peoples thought her character was. And they don't like it, because the show is basically laughing at them, telling them "you see, you are poor at judging peoples"
I understand that it rubs peoples in the wrong way, but that's exactly what i like, because in the end, i feel like i have learned something.

Some people don't like to learn, they just like to hear the already know enough...

Yes and other people just try to be smart. Apparently is better than actually learning something. 

This is Emilia's Clarke reaction by the way. So add her to your golden list with the ones poor at judging people:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-emilia-clarke-reaction

This is quite ridiculous believing they invested in anything more than cheap shock and surprise or even wanted us to learn something. 

Sure: "hey don't play with your dragon, it's dangerous".

Edited by Nightwish

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5 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Well, my argument is that at some point they moved from a character orientated story to plot oriented story, and that the characters (not just Dany) became bleak shadows of themselves in the process.

Once again i mostly disagree. Untill the end it was a character oriented story, the only plot that was not really character oriented is the Night King plot.

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes and other people just try to be smart. Apparently is better than actually learning something. 

This is Emilia's Clarke reaction by the way. So add her to your golden list with the ones poor at judging people:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/game-of-thrones-season-8-finale-emilia-clarke-reaction

This is quite ridiculous believing they invested in anything more than cheap shock and surprise or even wanted us to learn something. 

Sure: "hey don't play with your dragon, it's dangerous".

actors are usually the worst at judging the characters they are playing, because it's their job to be thoses characters. Just like we are totally unable to judge ourselves.
Well, to be honest, it depends also on the actor's acting method, you will also find actors saying "i'm playing an awfull S.O.B" but if you search for interviews of actor playing villains, you will find a lot of them saying that, to them, their characters are somehow right.
Emilia Clarke had to believe she was the hero of the story to make us believe that Daenerys believed to be the hero, that's how a lot of actors work.

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Just now, beeeeeen said:

actors are usually the worst at judging the characters they are playing, because it's their job to be thoses characters. Just like we are totally unable to judge ourselves.
Well, to be honest, it depends also on the actor's acting method, you will also find actors saying "i'm playing an awfull S.O.B" but if you search for interviews of actor playing villains, you will find a lot of them saying that, to them, their characters are somehow right.
Emilia Clarke had to believe she was the hero of the story to make us believe that Daenerys believed to be the hero, that's how a lot of actors work.

Yes sure she didn't know her role, but you and other people it knew it beforehand. ok. :P

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Emilia doesn't come across as the smartest bulb. She seems like she was fooled into it herself. I wouldn't be surprised, she was probably directed to think she's the hero because that's what Dany thinks. It doesn't make sense to tell her at any point that she's the villain in the end. That would ruin her characters' portrayal. 

"I wanted the person that he kills to not be a tyrannical dictator. It should just be a girl. It should be a human thing. And I think there's an enormous amount of that person left. She had every opportunity to recover from what happened in King's Landing."

The person Jon kills really should be a tyrannical dictator.

He should not be killing little girl Dany. 

I don't think she could recover from that at all. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes sure she didn't know her role, but you and other people it knew it beforehand. ok. :P

no, like i said in another post, i was as bad at judging her as most of the audience was. I was cheering her, and that's the point of the show, they wanted it to happen.
The only difference between you and me, is that i admit i was wrong and now that i have rewatched it from the begining, i see that the clues were there. Whereas you think the show is wrong.

Edited by beeeeeen

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13 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

however, there are peoples who, for years, told us this was going to happen... that means one thing, it was all in front of us, and we just could not see it. But don't worry, that's exactly what the writers wanted.

Yes and yes. There were dozens of videos depicting and clearly explaining Queen of Ashed / Mad Queen and very many watchers unterstood this issue.

And, again, this is not just "foreshadowing instead of telling", it was telling. It was showing Daenerys wanting to burn cities, destroy houses of stone.

And yes, for some it came as a surprise. That's fine. But that doesn't mean the story is bad or the telling was bad. 

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4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes sure she didn't know her role, but you and other people it knew it beforehand. ok. :P

People have been saying for years that Dany would end as the series antagonist.

And, if you've read any of D&D's scripts, it's easy to see how the actors would not really understand their character motivations, because little background or direction is given.

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes and yes. There were dozens of videos depicting and clearly explaining Queen of Ashed / Mad Queen and very many watchers unterstood this issue.

And, again, this is not just "foreshadowing instead of telling", it was telling. It was showing Daenerys wanting to burn cities, destroy houses of stone.

And yes, for some it came as a surprise. That's fine. But that doesn't mean the story is bad or the telling was bad. 

This is clearly still up for debate and not settled as the endless threads about the issue has proven.

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1 minute ago, tallTale said:

This is clearly still up for debate and not settled as the endless threads about the issue has proven.

Not at all. Some people understood the hints, some didn't. What does it prove in your eyes? That there were no hints? Really? Get logical now. 

Some understood the hints and explained them well, in dozens of videos, a long time ago. So there were hints. More than enough. No discussion needed at all. There were hints. Otherwise all the videos were empty.

Some didn't unterstand the hints, that's true. Some adored Daenerys, to a significant degree due to the very beautiful and charismatic actress. That doesn't mean that we need to discuss whether there were hints. There were. Tyrions explains this in E6 and that is how the show confirms these were hints.

 

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10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Emilia doesn't come across as the smartest bulb. She seems like she was fooled into it herself.

Wow.

...

I just wish to say that I wholeheartedly support any actor on this show who ever comes out and says that they didn't quite understand their own character. To me it's a sign of intelligence. And I would be very surprised if Emilia was the only one.

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

no, like i said in another post, i was as bad at judging her as most of the audience was. I was cheering her, and that's the point of the show, they wanted it to happen.
The only difference between you and me, is that i admit i was wrong and now that i have rewatched it from the begining, i see that the clues were there. Whereas you think the show is wrong.

No, I think that the show portrayed Dany as good until the finale because that's how they had wanted it. That's why Emilia was shocked by the twist. Because they never added to her performance any cues. they went for surprise.  

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

And, if you've read any of D&D's scripts, it's easy to see how the actors would not really understand their character motivations, because little background or direction is given.

Honestly, she doesn't know what actions Dany does?

Actors are supposed to be the ones reading their characters motives and reasons and understand their character. This is not just script reading. 

Oh yes and why would anyone believe the fan theories at that time? They all saw Azor Ahai, Nissa-Nissa, Bran as the Night King etc, Arya as the Valonquar ect. What happened to these crazy predictions?

 

Edited by Nightwish

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Just now, Kajjo said:

Not at all. Some people understood the hints, some didn't. What does it prove in your eyes? That there were no hints? Really? Get logical now. 

Some understood the hints and explained them well, in dozens of videos, a long time ago. So there were hints. More than enough. No discussion needed at all. There were hints. Otherwise all the videos were empty.

Some didn't unterstand the hints, that's true. Some adored Daenerys, to a significant degree due to the very beautiful and charismatic actress. That doesn't mean that we need to discuss whether there were hints. There were. Tyrions explains this in E6 and that is how the show confirms these were hints.

 

I love this, “I’m not blind, but you’re definitely blind!” lazy argument. I’ve detailed why along with many others in various  threads. No need to further derail this thread.

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3 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Wow.

...

I just wish to say that I wholeheartedly support any actor on this show who ever comes out and says that they didn't quite understand their own character. To me it's a sign of intelligence. And I would be very surprised if Emilia was the only one.

 

She's not though. She's defending Dany all the way to the end. She's not admitting she didn't understand Dany.

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1 minute ago, tallTale said:

I love this, “I’m not blind, but you’re definitely blind!” lazy argument.

It's not about me or someone else. It's about accepting that someone understood certain hints and others don't. Can happen. Nothing bad. But it is part of human strength to accept weakness. I like to have things explained. Why deny all explanations stubbornly?

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

No, I think that the show portrayed Dany as good until the finale because that's how they had wanted it. That's why Emilia was shocked by the twist. Because they never added to her performance any cues. That's for what they went for surprise.  

Honestly, she doesn't know what actions Dany does?

Actors are supposed to be the ones reading their characters motives and reasons and understand their character. This is not just script reading. 

 

If it isn't in the script or the direction, where is the actor supposed to get the information?  

The show, while it did portray some of the brutal actions of Dany, always couched these as heroic, now they wish to have it both ways, to say that the brutality was always there, which is technically true, but it was also always celebrated as bad guys getting what they deserve, the subtext that someone saying bend the knee and fire and blood and randomly dealing out their own personal idea of 'justice' all the time should be troubling to the audience was never put in the show in a meaningful way until the very end.  This is why, in addition to doing it in 2 episodes, that her turn to the dark side doesn't feel authentic. 

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

No, I think that the show portrayed Dany as good until the finale because that's how they had wanted it. That's why Emilia was shocked by the twist. Because they never added to her performance any cues. That's for what they went for surprise.  

Honestly, she doesn't know what actions Dany does?

Actors are supposed to be the ones reading their characters motives and reasons and understand their character. This is not just script reading. 

 

No, Daenerys has been portrayed as a bad guy at least since she landed in Westeros. She was bringing war and destruction to the continent without having anything to offer to the westerosi peoples. She wanted the throne because of her bloodright and eventhough she wanted to make as few casualties as possible, she had no real legitmacy in her claim... not because Jon Snow was the true heir, but because bloodline monarchy has no real legitimacy... So she could be nice and warm, her goal was rotten from the beginning and any civilian who would have died in her conquest, even if there was only one, would have been too much.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

If it isn't in the script or the direction, where is the actor supposed to get the information?  

The show, while it did portray some of the brutal actions of Dany, always couched these as heroic, now they wish to have it both ways, to say that the brutality was always there, which is technically true, but it was also always celebrated as bad guys getting what they deserve, the subtext that someone saying bend the knee and fire and blood and randomly dealing out their own personal idea of 'justice' all the time should be troubling to the audience was never put in the show in a meaningful way until the very end.  This is why, in addition to doing it in 2 episodes, that her turn to the dark side doesn't feel authentic. 

??????

What do you mean? She plays the character, not I. Where am I supposed to get information?

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Just now, Kajjo said:

It's not about me or someone else. It's about accepting that someone understood certain hints and others don't. Can happen. Nothing bad. But it is part of human strength to accept weakness. I like to have things explained. Why deny all explanations stubbornly?

Because I made a differing argument backed by evidence?

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