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My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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1 minute ago, beeeeeen said:

No, Daenerys has been portrayed as a bad guy at least since she landed in Westeros. She was bringing war and destruction to the continent without having anything to offer to the westerosi peoples. She wanted the throne because of her bloodright and eventhough she wanted to make as few casualties as possible, she had no real legitmacy in her claim... not because Jon Snow was the true heir, but because bloodline monarchy has no real legitimacy... So she could be nice and warm, her goal was rotten from the beginning and any civilian who would have died in her conquest, even if there was only one, would have been too much.

Ah now you moved the time line when she moved to Westeros... Anyway our opinions are very far part and need to go. Another time. 

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There were also hints that Daenerys wouldn’t end up like her father too.  There were scenes showing her compassion for slaves by freeing them.  Stopping the Dothraki from raping a woman.  Listening to the counsel of Barristan Selmy and Tyrion.   There were hints that she might become pregnant. Hints that she could be happy with Jon living near that waterfall.  It was just the writers’ choice to finally go down her dark side instead.   I accept that and I do see the biggest hint of all.....her family motto of Fire and Blood!   Ultimately.....she couldn’t escape what she felt was her destiny.  If not love.....then fear.  She went there and it was her downfall.

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Not at all. Some people understood the hints, some didn't. What does it prove in your eyes? That there were no hints? Really? Get logical now. 

Some understood the hints and explained them well, in dozens of videos, a long time ago. So there were hints. More than enough. No discussion needed at all. There were hints. Otherwise all the videos were empty.

Some didn't unterstand the hints, that's true. Some adored Daenerys, to a significant degree due to the very beautiful and charismatic actress. That doesn't mean that we need to discuss whether there were hints. There were. Tyrions explains this in E6 and that is how the show confirms these were hints.

 

You could say there were hints about every person then, the only difference is that Daenerys had the "mad targ" plot device. If Targaryens were just rulers and did not have this "mad targ" gene, would Dany be any different than any other character? What she does throughout the show is exactly what we cheer other characters for, but we never call that going mad. 

 

Look at the Lannisters, all of them are crazy mad but we never think of them as so because it was said they were cunning. Arya and Sansa have killed brutally but they are righteous, not mad. The mad targ was a plot device for D&D and GRRM to shoot in case they wanted to. They could have EASILY gone the other way and it would have made even more sense. I don't think anyone would be going "but it doesn't make sense, she HAS to be evil!" because she never was. Up until this point Dany had never targeted innocents. GRRM and D&D decided to pull the trigger. THAT is what makes horrid storytelling. In any other case this was a horrible retcon of her character. 

 

So go on with your whole "we told you so" bullshit, you're okay with a poor ending since everyone else got rainbows and sunshine. 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Ah now you moved the time line when she moved to Westeros... Anyway our opinions are very far part and need to go. Another time. 

That's is why i say "at least". Everything that happens before her arriving on Westeros can be debated, she was burning peoples, but at the same time she was freeing slaves. In the end, those who were already seeing her as a future villain were right, but at this time it was up for debate. But when she arrived on Westeros she was no longer freeing anybody, she was conquering. Tyrion, Varys, Jon and Jorah kept her for some time from succumbing to her dark side, but the dark side was there, she wasn't coming to save anybody, she just craved for power...

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

There were also hints that Daenerys wouldn’t end up like her father too.  There were scenes showing her compassion for slaves by freeing them.  Stopping the Dothraki from raping a woman.  Listening to the counsel of Barristan Selmy and Tyrion.   There were hints that she might become pregnant. Hints that she could be happy with Jon living near that waterfall.  It was just the writers’ choice to finally go down her dark side instead.   I accept that and I do see the biggest hint of all.....her family motto of Fire and Blood!   Ultimately.....she couldn’t escape what she felt was her destiny.  If not love.....then fear.  She went there and it was her downfall.

Of course there were hints that she would not become like her father, it would have been a lot less interesting if she had been 100% bad from the get go, she would just have been Viserys with boobs.

Edited by beeeeeen

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5 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

There were also hints that Daenerys wouldn’t end up like her father too.  There were scenes showing her compassion for slaves by freeing them.  Stopping the Dothraki from raping a woman.  Listening to the counsel of Barristan Selmy and Tyrion.   There were hints that she might become pregnant. Hints that she could be happy with Jon living near that waterfall.  It was just the writers’ choice to finally go down her dark side instead.   I accept that and I do see the biggest hint of all.....her family motto of Fire and Blood!   Ultimately.....she couldn’t escape what she felt was her destiny.  If not love.....then fear.  She went there and it was her downfall.

She didn't end up like her father though, she wasn't bat shit insane, refusing to bath, or cut her nails or getting sexually aroused by torture.  She became, like many figures throughout history, overly convinced of her own goodness and the rightness of her cause, and no longer concerned with the methods and harms that would result from executing her vision.  

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It's fundamentally a mistake to portray Dany's invasion of Westeros as making her different from really any of the combatants in the War of the Five Kings. Dany invades with the support of the Unsullied and the Dothraki, yes, but she also has the support of Dorne, a good chunk of the Iron Islands, and the Tyrells (who should've been one of the strongest houses). Until the show pressed the "delete" key on 75% of Dany's Westerosi supporters thanks to the unbelievable plot armor of Cersei and Euron, she would've had more Westerosi in her army than Unsullied or Dothraki. It seems improbable that this would make her any worse than Renly, who grabbed for the throne despite not having a claim rather than focusing on eliminating Cersei and Joffrey. Or, for that matter, for Robb, who marched south out of grievance over what had been done to his family, which is fundamentally the same motivation driving Dany. 

Furthermore, to the point of the "foreign invaders" argument, the Unsullied are so unbelievably disciplined that they're the best possible army you could hope to lose a battle against, as Dany exercises a level of control over them completely unheard-of among real medieval armies, and we never see the Dothraki raping or pillaging indiscriminately on the show. There's nothing to suggest that her troops behave any worse than anyone else's, and in fact the Unsullied would behave much, much better, so long as she wills it. 

Continuing the war doesn't make her a hero, of course, but it also doesn't make her a monster, and most especially not when Cersei is the one sitting on the throne. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

She didn't end up like her father though, she wasn't bat shit insane, refusing to bath, or cut her nails or getting sexually aroused by torture.  She became, like many figures throughout history, overly convinced of her own goodness and the rightness of her cause, and no longer concerned with the methods and harms that would result from executing her vision.  

See, I question if Aerys was actually "mad".  Yes, ordering the pyromancers to burn the city is bat shit.  But Rhaegar was plotting against him, and it appeared most of the realm was open to it.  He was kidnapped, tortured and probably raped while held at Duskendale.  Do you think it never got back to him that Tywin wanted to sack the city, and if not for Selmy, he would have done so. 

That's the whole point of this series.  We're told this person is one thing, but when we get to know them and see them from a different point of view, we find that one encompassing statement to be inaccurate.  Jamie pushed a child out of a window, but he also saved King's Landing, stopped Brienne from being raped, and went North to fight the undead.  

 

Shades of grey.  That was Martin's entire point, no one is completely good or evil.

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2 hours ago, Aurane said:

I agree. People say that the crucifixations are signs that she's going down the path of madness. These are displays of her being ruthless, but that doesn't mean that she has a warped ideology or view of the world. Her world domination stuff comes out of nowhere, so does whatever was going through her mind at the wall of KL. It's too bad that they chose to radically change who this character is in the last 2 episodes, after the better part of a decade building up to something else. In the books, I could definitely see her going down the path of becoming a Robespierre type character (in terms of conviction and ways of going about it, not necessarily abolishing monarchy). This doesn't mean that they should of attempted to go down that path in the final season.

Did it, though?  She was screaming about taking what was hers with "fire and blood" in season 2.  She looked basically aroused listening to Drogo promising to "rape their women" and "enslave their children" (speaking about the Westerosi).  What do you think happens to the smallfolk in this scenario?  This scene made me sick.  Lots of people knew if she ever did cross the narrow sea, there would be a LOT of suffering in the name of her "taking what is hers". 

2 hours ago, Vanadis said:

Dany should have said: I'm afraid of what I'm becoming. Am I wrong? Like Jon did. Only her saying it would have given the question a real impact. There could have been so many good scenes and twists and turns because of her struggle. But they saved it until the very end. What a wasted opportunity of a potentially interesting character.

To me, we view Daenerys' character in fundamentally different ways.  I would say that one of characteristics that she has ALWAYS had, is being totally certain of herself and what is right, and what she is owed.  So she wouldn't ask the question "am I wrong?" or say "I'm afraid of what I'm becoming".  That's not her.  That would have been totally OOC in my opinion.  Some people are attracted to her certainty and "strength" but as she got to be more certain of herself as the seasons went on, my liking of her decreased.  She grew arrogant and unaware of her brutality.  The gentleness that Jorah had seen, faded away.  She would never question her actions the way Jon did, because they are nearly opposite personalities. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Red Dragon10 said:

The gentleness that Jorah had seen, faded away.  She would never question her actions the way Jon did, because they are nearly opposite personalities. 

how is GRRM going to pull this off as a love story? Not only are they opposites/foils, there is still the idea that time will be compressed in the books. If he still plans for 7 books and for them to meet in the last one - is any real long lasting love even going to take hold. I just can't see it. Jaime/Cersei had a more convincing love story, even if it was fucked up. I really don't think Jon would be the one who has to be convinced to kill her, like a resistant audience member. I think Tyrion is more likely to play that role because he's more susceptible to the charms of pretty women. Either way, "audience stand in who defends Dany" fell to Jon and that felt piss-poor.  

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)

There were plenty of hints throughout the show and in GRRM interviews about good & evil residing in all of us. 

This dochotomy was explained very early on by Aemon [S1E9] and then intentionally tied to Dany one episode later by Maester Pycelle.  

Maester Aemon: Tell me, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children? 

Jon Snow: No

Maester Aemon: So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do? 

Jon Snow: He... He would do whatever was right. No matter what

Maester Aemon: Then Lord Stark is one man in 10,000. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? And what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother's smile? 

Jon Snow: Sam told you

Maester Aemon: We're all human. Oh, we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet sooner or later in every man's life there comes a day when it's not easy. A day when he must choose. 

Jon Snow: And this is my day? Is that what you are saying? 

Maester Aemon: Oh, it hurts, boy, Oh, yes. I know. 

Jon Snow: You do not know! No one knows. I may be a bastard, but he is my father and Robb is my brother! 

Maester Aemon: [chuckles] The gods were cruel when they saw fit to test my vows. They waited till I was old. What could I do when the ravens brought news from the South? The ruin of my House, the death of my family? I was helpless, blind, frail. But when I heard they had killed my brother's son, and his poor son, and the children. Even the little children!

———————————————————

Maester Pycelle then informs us shortly after in S1E10 that Daenerys may be predisposed to losing her honor:

 Aerys Targaryen... of all the thousand thousand maladies the gods visit on us, madness is the worst. He was a good man, such a charmer. To watch him melt away before my eyes, consumed by dreams of fire and blood..”.

—————————————

Both sentiments are then echoed TOGETHER by Ser Barristan to Dany for good measure:

“The Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.”

———————————————

Then later we’re reminded yet again of Dany’s predisposition for madness through Jamie’s story about the Mad King to Brienne.

 

But before that, in S3, the viewers are made sure to witness Rickard Karstark turning mad over the death of his sons, to which end he willfully sacrifices duty & honor for revenge, via the murder of 2 innocent Lannister boys.  Hell, a running theme of the show is about losing one’s wits in the name of tragedy & revenge.  We were so prepared for S8 that it was beyond obvious.  Dany’s gradual descent into madness didn’t start during the show; the kindling onset long before that amidst her traumatic childhood. 

Edited by ToddDavid

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16 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

There were plenty of hints throughout the show and in GRRM interviews about good & evil residing in all of us. 

This dochotomy was explained very early on by Aemon [S1E9] and then intentionally tied to Dany one episode later by Maester Pycelle.  

Maester Aemon: Tell me, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children? 

Jon Snow: No

Maester Aemon: So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do? 

Jon Snow: He... He would do whatever was right. No matter what

Maester Aemon: Then Lord Stark is one man in 10,000. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? And what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother's smile? 

Jon Snow: Sam told you

Maester Aemon: We're all human. Oh, we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet sooner or later in every man's life there comes a day when it's not easy. A day when he must choose. 

Jon Snow: And this is my day? Is that what you are saying? 

Maester Aemon: Oh, it hurts, boy, Oh, yes. I know. 

Jon Snow: You do not know! No one knows. I may be a bastard, but he is my father and Robb is my brother! 

Maester Aemon: [chuckles] The gods were cruel when they saw fit to test my vows. They waited till I was old. What could I do when the ravens brought news from the South? The ruin of my House, the death of my family? I was helpless, blind, frail. But when I heard they had killed my brother's son, and his poor son, and the children. Even the little children!

———————————————————

Maester Pycelle then informs us shortly after in S1E10 that Daenerys may be predisposed to losing her honor:

 Aerys Targaryen... of all the thousand thousand maladies the gods visit on us, madness is the worst. He was a good man, such a charmer. To watch him melt away before my eyes, consumed by dreams of fire and blood..”.

—————————————

Both sentiments are then echoed TOGETHER by Ser Barristan to Dany for good measure:

“The Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.”

———————————————

Then later we’re reminded yet again of Dany’s predisposition for madness through Jamie’s story about the Mad King to Brienne.

 

But before that, in S3, the viewers are made sure to witness Rickard Karstark turning mad over the death of his sons, to which end he willfully sacrifices duty & honor for revenge, via the murder of 2 innocent Lannister boys.  Hell, a running theme of the show is about losing one’s wits in the name of tragedy & revenge.  We were so prepared for S8 that it was beyond obvious.  Dany’s gradual descent into madness didn’t start during the show; the kindling onset long before that amidst her traumatic childhood. 

Dany didn't have a gradual descent into madness she was a reasonable and sympathetic ruler up until she suddenly snapped in King's Landing and became a mass murderer. 

I suppose you could argue that this could happen to any Targaryen but then why would anyone want Jon on the throne either? 

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3 minutes ago, Moseh Khayim said:

Just trying to justify their rushed final season. Embarassing really.

A longer S8 wouldn’t have altered Dany’s destiny.  It would’ve only changed the release date.  

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2 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

<snip> To me, we view Daenerys' character in fundamentally different ways.  I would say that one of characteristics that she has ALWAYS had, is being totally certain of herself and what is right, and what she is owed.  So she wouldn't ask the question "am I wrong?" or say "I'm afraid of what I'm becoming".  That's not her.  <snip>

This is probably true of the show. It is the first and perhaps/probably the greatest way in which her character was altered in the transition from books to show.

In the books, Dany is the soul of introspection. She is always looking at herself, reflecting over what she has done and whether it was the right thing, asking what the next right thing might be, and seeking and taking seriously the counsel of her advisors. Yes, even in the books, she seems certain of her destiny, but there is a lot of evidence--like the dragons--that make it seem that she is correct about that destiny.

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Posted (edited)

If D & D wished to credibly show Dany doing real evil in Kings Landing, they should have had her get into the habit of doing real evil in the first six seasons.  Not stuff we can argue about - like did the Slave Masters deserve to be crucified in return for crucifying children, or did she use too much force at Astapor.  Something like following through on her threats to reduce Yunkai to ashes, with its inhabitants trapped inside. 

Or (over a longer number of episodes) we could have seen her soldiers in Westeros committing real, unequivocal atrocities, at her command.  Not things we can argue over, like burning the Tarlys, but burning down towns that offer resistance and massacring the inhabitants.

Then, we could see the burning of Kings Landing as the logical culmination of what had come before.

Edited by SeanF

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2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is probably true of the show. It is the first and perhaps/probably the greatest way in which her character was altered in the transition from books to show.

In the books, Dany is the soul of introspection. She is always looking at herself, reflecting over what she has done and whether it was the right thing, asking what the next right thing might be, and seeking and taking seriously the counsel of her advisors. Yes, even in the books, she seems certain of her destiny, but there is a lot of evidence--like the dragons--that make it seem that she is correct about that destiny.

Another very big difference with the books, is that it's generally her advisors who are recommending fire and blood, while she opts for restraint.

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Just now, SeanF said:

If D & D wished to credibly show Dany doing real evil in Kings Landing, they should have had her get into the habit of doing real evil in the first six seasons.  Not stuff we can argue about - like did the Slave Masters deserve to be crucified in return for crucifying children, or did she use too much force at Astapor.  Something like following through on her threats to reduce Yunkai to ashes, with its inhabitants trapped inside. 

Or (over a longer number of seasons) we could have seen her soldiers in Westeros committing real, unequivocal atrocities, at her command.  Not things we can argue over, like burning the Tarlys, but burning down towns that offer resistance and massacring the inhabitants.

Then, we could see the burning of Kings Landing as the logical culmination of what had come before.

Just so. Instead, the very first time she harms people for no reason, SHE DOES IT BIG. And not only that, but seems utterly confident later it was the thing to do, even looking surprised when she is questioned. And is obviously all primed to do it again.

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Posted (edited)

I think it makes you question your limits. Her murder of Miri was very grey considering what Drogo did. If Miri should have been killed for her actions then surely Dany should be killed for killing all those people she thought were evil? Why is Dany justified but Miri not? Dany watched her own brother killed when Jorah told her to look away. Again, that was grey. He was her only family. He made huge sacrifices to keep them both alive. He was also abusive. He sold her to Drogo but that is no different that Rickard selling Lyanna to Robert. Women are objects in their world. Then you have the crucified slave masters, at random. No hesitation to get the real culprits, no trials, just random retribution. Then there is the concept of a slavemaster and whether owning slaves is enough to make you a monster. We see a slave who wanted to go back to the family that owned him before. If you live in a world where this is the norm and has been the norm for thousands of years that is your normal. Its very easy to be an outsider and make judgement. That master she fed to her dragons to scare other masters turned out to be innocent. She did not care. She watched. Think of Hizdahr, this woman has his dad murdered, threatens to have him eaten by monsters and then forces him to marry her.  These are very grey areas that we reduce to black and white and in the end so does Daenerys. In the final scene she is fetishising Aegon's 'enemies' and thinks of so many killed with delight. We know Aegon's 'enemies' did nothing to Aegon but get in between him and his dream of a united 7 kingdoms. Daenerys' 'enemies' are the same, anyone who contradicts her worldview for she is right in all things.

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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12 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

Dany didn't have a gradual descent into madness she was a reasonable and sympathetic ruler up until she suddenly snapped in King's Landing and became a mass murderer. 

I suppose you could argue that this could happen to any Targaryen but then why would anyone want Jon on the throne either? 

Yes, she was reasonable and sympathetic.... to those who were relatable to her [the raped and the enslaved].  That doesn’t make her sympathetic and compassionate to ALL mankind though, as we well witnessed.  The only reason that she seemed “unmad” earlier is bc most of her dealings prior to S8 were with people she could relate to. Initially there were always bad men standing in her way and the enslaved to free.   Therefore her predilection toward madness was originally hidden behind the facade that her first million murders were of individuals whom nobody will miss.   Not to mention, liberated slave lands represent allies, soldiers, and territories.... people whom would stand behind her. 

However, Westeros isn’t a “slave territory”.  There wasn’t relatable population there for her to empathize with, which meant that everyone was fair game in her ultimate pursuit of the throne.  I mean, we’ve witnessed it multiple times where she portrays herself unrelatable to the common man. If Dany HAD an army and 3 grown dragons when denied entry into Qarth by the Thirteen, she would’ve madly reduced that entire place to ash just as she claimed she would.  Later she was made aware of an innocent life she slayed and displayed zero remorse about it.  Dany was a classic raging Narcissist through & through.  Even dating back to S1, she’s always been angry, spiteful, hot-headed, entitled, and self-absorbed.... and routinely displayed hostility in her tone of voice & mannerisms.  

I have no idea why anyone would want Jon to occupy the throne during a time of peace either.  He was mostly just a unifier, a rallier of the troops, and when it came to actual kingly duties, he always preferred to engage in tasks elsewhere.  Sansa was the one who performed most of his obligations.  

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