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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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The problem was not with her turn, or even with the speed at which it happened.  The problem was that it was insufficiently justified by the plot. 

Had it happened when Rhaegal fell, perhaps with Jon on his back, thinking she had lost both, maybe as he did something stupid to avoid hurting civilians, it would make sense.  Then when after rather than realizing it was a mistake, she realized that was her true self. 

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48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If D & D wished to credibly show Dany doing real evil in Kings Landing, they should have had her get into the habit of doing real evil in the first six seasons.  Not stuff we can argue about - like did the Slave Masters deserve to be crucified in return for crucifying children, or did she use too much force at Astapor.  Something like following through on her threats to reduce Yunkai to ashes, with its inhabitants trapped inside. 

Or (over a longer number of episodes) we could have seen her soldiers in Westeros committing real, unequivocal atrocities, at her command.  Not things we can argue over, like burning the Tarlys, but burning down towns that offer resistance and massacring the inhabitants.

Then, we could see the burning of Kings Landing as the logical culmination of what had come before.

How could Dany do real evil in the first 6 seasons? Where existed the opportunities of such open display?  I mean, it’s difficult to portray evil when all your dealings are with slave lands and she’s in need of an army to assist her conquest.  If GRRM readily made her madness apparent early on, then that would’ve changed the entire landscape of the show.  All he could do was hint at it and foreshadow it, which he did abundantly.  

There were plenty of instances of SPOKEN EVIL, however.  I’m not sure why that doesn’t count. How the heck can anyone NOT take Dany as a woman of her word?  

Not to mention, earlier she didn’t have 3 grown dragons nor an army of Unsullied, so the only weapon of evil at her disposal were her words &  threats.  I mean c’mon, we would’ve witnessed her madness multiple times over if she had grown dragons and the Unsullied since S1E1.

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I agree the show did a poor job of taking Dany from idealistic, wanna be benevolent dictator to actual dictator who isn't benevolent anymore, but come on, she's been prattling on about her enemies dying screaming, burning cities to the ground, taking what is hers with fire and blood, her rights, and bending the knee since season 2.  She's been telling people to submit or die since she got the unsullied in season 3.  

The scariest thing about this whole story is how very many people subscribe(d) to the idea that if your goals are noble, then whatever means you use against the bad people is just dandy.  

 

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6 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

How could Dany do real evil in the first 6 seasons? Where existed the opportunities of such open display?  I mean, it’s difficult to portray evil when all your dealings are with slave lands and she’s in need of an army to assist her conquest.  If GRRM readily made her madness apparent early on, then that would’ve changed the entire landscape of the show.  All he could do was hint at it and foreshadow it, which he did abundantly.  

There were plenty of instances of SPOKEN EVIL, however.  I’m not sure why that doesn’t count. How the heck can anyone NOT take Dany as a woman of her word?  

Not to mention, earlier she didn’t have 3 grown dragons nor an army of Unsullied, so the only weapon of evil at her disposal were her words &  threats.  I mean c’mon, we would’ve witnessed her madness multiple times over if she had grown dragons and the Unsullied since S1E1.

Plenty of opportunities.  We could have seen women and children being butchered at Astapor:  or she might have made good on her threat in Episode 9 of Season 6 and actually razed Yunkai to the ground;  or she could have executed Yunkish prisoners on the spot.  On coming to Westeros, we might  have seen her conduct a chevauchee into territory held by Cersei, or burning down a town under her control.  Each act could have been justified by military necessity, or handwaved away as collateral damage, or for the greater good, but would have been evidence of mounting brutality.

Up until the nuking of Kings Landing, she's not been presented as any more cruel than any other of the main protagonists.  Then she becomes Adolf Hitler (Emilia Clarke actually says that).

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree the show did a poor job of taking Dany from idealistic, wanna be benevolent dictator to actual dictator who isn't benevolent anymore, but come on, she's been prattling on about her enemies dying screaming, burning cities to the ground, taking what is hers with fire and blood, her rights, and bending the knee since season 2.  She's been telling people to submit or die since she got the unsullied in season 3.  

The scariest thing about this whole story is how very many people subscribe(d) to the idea that if your goals are noble, then whatever means you use against the bad people is just dandy.  

 

And, if we get TWOW, I expect that's the way she'll go.  I'd expect her invasion of Western Essos to be hell on earth for many of the inhabitants. So, her burning down Kings Landing will be unforced.

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1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Just so. Instead, the very first time she harms people for no reason, SHE DOES IT BIG. And not only that, but seems utterly confident later it was the thing to do, even looking surprised when she is questioned. And is obviously all primed to do it again.

Cmon now, it’s INCREDIBLY APPARENT that she’s already “done it big” in her own mind many times over.  

1) Qarth would’ve been ash if she had an army.  That’s just obvious.

2) She’s already mentally pictured what will happen to the lands of the individuals who wrong her when telling Jorah, “We will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me; we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!” 

3) Then she obviously mentally pictured [during the fighting pits scene] what will happen to Meereen should it disobey her— “I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is my PLAN”. Now, obviously a city returned to the dirt implies all of its innocent civilians along with it.

Her capacity for madness has been there all along. 

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree the show did a poor job of taking Dany from idealistic, wanna be benevolent dictator to actual dictator who isn't benevolent anymore, but come on, she's been prattling on about her enemies dying screaming, burning cities to the ground, taking what is hers with fire and blood, her rights, and bending the knee since season 2.  She's been telling people to submit or die since she got the unsullied in season 3.  

The scariest thing about this whole story is how very many people subscribe(d) to the idea that if your goals are noble, then whatever means you use against the bad people is just dandy.  

 

Talking about it and doing it are very different things. Threats are just a tool of statecraft. Nuking cities is a tool of evil.

Your last paragraph is not about Daenerys, it's about a much broader subject. Too broad for me to be interested in getting into, but I'll just say I think you're giving "means vs. ends" short shrift.

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Just now, ToddDavid said:

Cmon now, it’s INCREDIBLY APPARENT that she’s already “done it big” in her own mind many times over.  

1) Qarth would’ve been ash if she had an army.  That’s just obvious.

2) She’s already mentally pictured what will happen to the lands of the individuals who wrong her when telling Jorah, “We will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me; we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!” 

3) Then she obviously mentally pictured [during the fighting pits scene] what will happen to Meereen should it disobey her— “I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is my PLAN”. Now, obviously a city returned to the dirt implies all of its innocent civilians along with it.

Her capacity for madness has been there all along. 

In the case of 3) the Yunkish are lobbing incendiary bombs into Meereen and the Great Pyramid.  I'm pretty sure I would be saying much the same in her position.

In any case, show don't say, is the best way of doing it.

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Just now, ToddDavid said:

Cmon now, it’s INCREDIBLY APPARENT that she’s already “done it big” in her own mind many times over.  

<snip>

Well, whatever you say. As for me, doing it and talking about it are entirely separate matters. 

Also, my Daenerys view is a little bit trapped in the books.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Well, whatever you say. As for me, doing it and talking about it are entirely separate matters. 

Also, my Daenerys view is a little bit trapped in the books.

I think that’s the issue. Having not read the book, I had nothing to influence my belief system about the characters. I was able to see them for exactly who the show itself portrayed them as.

Mad people often don’t spend their entire lives being mad. They often appear normal up until the point that they don’t.

And again, there’s the belief by GRRM and the restatement of that belief multiple times in the show that individuals aren’t “all good or all evil”.  He explicitly tells us in the beginning that great personal tragedy can cause most humans to sacrifice honor [I quoted it for you on the previous page].  We were also explicitly reminded that it’s in Dany’s blood to be predisposed to losing her honor.  That’s all we the viewers needed to see. Anything else destroys the pertinent mystery of “Will or will Dany not become Daddy 2.0?”  That was a significant plot line of the show.

Therefore, once she loses 2 dragons [her children], her closest confidant, and experiences emotions of betrayal, those are all the clues you need to know that she’s ready to join the rubber room club. We were totally prepared for it.

Edited by ToddDavid

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ToddDavid said:

How could Dany do real evil in the first 6 seasons? Where existed the opportunities of such open display?  I mean, it’s difficult to portray evil when all your dealings are with slave lands and she’s in need of an army to assist her conquest.  If GRRM readily made her madness apparent early on, then that would’ve changed the entire landscape of the show.  All he could do was hint at it and foreshadow it, which he did abundantly.  

There were plenty of instances of SPOKEN EVIL, however.  I’m not sure why that doesn’t count. How the heck can anyone NOT take Dany as a woman of her word?  

Not to mention, earlier she didn’t have 3 grown dragons nor an army of Unsullied, so the only weapon of evil at her disposal were her words &  threats.  I mean c’mon, we would’ve witnessed her madness multiple times over if she had grown dragons and the Unsullied since S1E1.

Because one of the main themes of the series is, "words are wind" and basically actions speak louder than words. Just look at Shit Mouth, the kindest member of The Mountains Men, yet the guy swears like a sailor.

Edited by sifth

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Bluntly, everyone in the show is a conqueror.

Rob plans to conquer King's Landing and the Westlands
Stannis plans to conquer the Seven Kingdoms
Jon conquers Winterfell and the other Stark lands
Cersei tries to conquer everything

Everyone is also ruthless in the show.

So what the hell makes Daeny any different?

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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Bluntly, everyone in the show is a conqueror.

Rob plans to conquer King's Landing and the Westlands
Stannis plans to conquer the Seven Kingdoms
Jon conquers Winterfell and the other Stark lands
Cersei tries to conquer everything

Everyone is also ruthless in the show.

So what the hell makes Daeny any different?

One difference is that no one else has convinced themselves that dealing death to civilians is really mercy. No one else sees themselves as a messianic figure, nor do they expect to be loved for their actions, off the top of my head.

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Because of the main themes of the series is, "words are wind" and basically actions speak louder than words. Just look at Shit Mouth, the kindest member of The Mountains Men, yet the guy swears like a sailor.

Understandable, but Dany was NEVER a woman of idle words.  Sure, some of her earlier threats may have appeared as statesmanship to those wanting to perceive it as such, but I think we can all deduce by her actions in King’s Landing that her statements were in fact promises. 

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45 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Talking about it and doing it are very different things. Threats are just a tool of statecraft. Nuking cities is a tool of evil.

Your last paragraph is not about Daenerys, it's about a much broader subject. Too broad for me to be interested in getting into, but I'll just say I think you're giving "means vs. ends" short shrift.

But it’s no longer interpreted as statescraft when you demonstrate that nuking cities is very much your intention. 

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If D & D wished to credibly show Dany doing real evil in Kings Landing, they should have had her get into the habit of doing real evil in the first six seasons.  Not stuff we can argue about - like did the Slave Masters deserve to be crucified in return for crucifying children, or did she use too much force at Astapor.  Something like following through on her threats to reduce Yunkai to ashes, with its inhabitants trapped inside. 

Or (over a longer number of episodes) we could have seen her soldiers in Westeros committing real, unequivocal atrocities, at her command.  Not things we can argue over, like burning the Tarlys, but burning down towns that offer resistance and massacring the inhabitants.

Then, we could see the burning of Kings Landing as the logical culmination of what had come before.

There is always a first time, if she had done evil in season 2, you would probably had said "this is not credible, if Dany is evil, she should have done something evil in season 1".
Also... actually she did some evil stuffs in season 1.. like others just said... she killed Miri Maz Durr. Oh i know, Miri killed Khal Drogo... but Drogo raped and rampaged Miri's peoples, and Daenerys was on Drogo's side... yes she was showing a little more compassion than the others Dothrakis, but she was with Drogo. Daenerys could have pardonned Miri, but no, she burned her alive. At the time i did not see it, and i cheered for Dany avenging her husband, but i was wrong, Miri was on the good side, she was a victim of the Dothrakis.
Like i said in other posts, some people cannot stand the idea of being wrong, especially for a long time, about someone, like that. We are witnessing a serious case of cognitive dissonance, thoses peoples had a strong belief that Daenerys was the hero, that she was a good person, and the events proved them wrong, but instead of accepting it, they blame the events. "I cannot be wrong, and if reality doesn't go as i believe it should, then reality is wrong"
 

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

One difference is that no one else has convinced themselves that dealing death to civilians is really mercy. No one else sees themselves as a messianic figure, nor do they expect to be loved for their actions, off the top of my head.

i'll add that none of them had three weapons of mass destruction

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2 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is probably true of the show. It is the first and perhaps/probably the greatest way in which her character was altered in the transition from books to show.

In the books, Dany is the soul of introspection. She is always looking at herself, reflecting over what she has done and whether it was the right thing, asking what the next right thing might be, and seeking and taking seriously the counsel of her advisors. Yes, even in the books, she seems certain of her destiny, but there is a lot of evidence--like the dragons--that make it seem that she is correct about that destiny.

I've only watched the show, so that explains my perspective on that!  ;) 

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