Jump to content
AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

Ned was justified to execute Jorah. Are you really trying to cite Ned's hypothetical execution of Jorah as evidence that Ned is merciless like Dany?

Jorah knew the punishment for selling slaves was death. He did it anyway.
The slavers did not know the punishment for being born in a slaving society was death. Dany killed them anyway.

There seems to be this mistaken idea that the progression to murdering a million people goes 1 3 10 100 1000 100000 1m. That isn't how it works. It goes 1 and then 1 million. If you can justify murdering one person then you can justify murdering 1 million because all you do is apply the same justification 1 million times. This is just a psychological truth. It's why mass killings happen out of nowhere. It's why the family of mass killers often say that they had no idea their son, daughter, uncle, friend or father was capable of something like that. People were NOT paying attention to the psychology of the character of Daenerys. Her progression didn't come out of nowhere, it was developed slowly since season 1 right in front of you, but we weren't paying attention to it because we sympathize with her.

Step 1: I know it's wrong but I'm not the one doing it. (Viserys, Wineseller)
Step 2: I know it's wrong but I'm not the only one doing it. (Crucify masters in retaliation)
Step 3: I know it's wrong but someone made me do it. (Tarlys made me kill them. Sansa made me kill Varys.)
Step 4: Now she doesn't know it's wrong anymore. The mechanism that was telling her the difference between right and wrong is corrupted and broken, because she kept misusing it and broke it. That's why she feels perfectly justified to burn KL and everyone in it.

Jorah WARNED her to look away from Viserys's murder.
Barristan WARNED her not to crucify the masters and apply mercy.
Tyrion WARNED her to apply mercy and let the Tarlys think in a dark cell JUST LIKE NED DID when Ned changed his mind.

...and multiple people warned Dany to apply mercy to the INNOCENT PEOPLE of King’s Landing if and when the bell rings. She even sits atop Drogon pondering it for a minute

“Should I spare all these innocent lives and appear merciful [and thus weak in her eyes] or do I barbecue this city and make all of Westeros fear me?”

Easy answer for Dany. It’s always been about FEAR!  The only time it isn’t is when she conquers slave lands, bc they’re initially more concerned about being “free” than worrying about some narcissist on a dragon attempting to conquer their lands. There’s no need to inflict fear upon them, but if the need did arise, she most certainly would have.   

Essentially everyone remained slaves to Dany though in their service of her desire to conquer.  Little to no difference between a servant or slave soldier choosing to sacrifice their freedom for Dany’s personal quest than a slave desiring to sell himself back to the family he served, yet for some inexplicably hypocritical reason Dany is angrily intolerable to the latter and would only offer the compromise of 1 year rather than the lifetime that they wish for.  Did she force those who serve her greed to return to Meereen or elsewhere after 1 year of servitude. Hypocrite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

The hell it isn't. You said that every slave would definitely be a slave master if given a chance. You even used a bunch of exclamation points! !!! That leaves no room at all for the possibility that perhaps there is a moral dimension that is considered by some but not others.

Here's what I originally said: "You are actually saying that being a slave is the moral equivalent of being a slave-owner."

You might have room to argue if you had qualified what you said in any way, but you didn't. You made all the slaves happy to become masters if they had a chance. If both groups would make the exact same moral choice, then they are moral equivalents. Period. 

Analytically, we can boil this down into two options:

(1) Slavery is morally objectionable and the masters shouldn't be doing it.

- Since the slaves would do the same thing if they get a chance, that means the slaves would have the exact same moral failing as the masters. Ergo, if you believe slavery is morally objectionable then you're saying slaves are the moral equals of the masters.

- (2) Slavery is not morally objectionable and is the proper way for humans to behave. 

So naturally slaves would become masters if they had a chance, because that is the proper way for humans to behave. Ergo, if you believe slavery is just fine, then slaves are the moral equals of the masters.

Instead of slinging your "straw man" BS, tell me what I got wrong here.

As a reminder, this is what YOU said that I called you on:

 

You yet again fully failed to comprehend the question. Let’s repost the original question again. 

Quote

 If the slaves of Essos were offered an  opportunity to flip the script and become the Masters while the Masters become the slaves, would they have done it? You’re damn right they would!!!!

Let me help you a little: the slaves are hypothetically being offered an opportunity to pick which side they collectively want to occupy, either the slave side or the slave owners side. That’s it, period. Nothing more nothing less.  

So, not only are you you’re suggesting that the slaves would collectively choose to continue being the slaves but you’re also continuing to engage in strawman garbage by generating all sorts of nonsense that was neither said nor implied.  Typical Team Dany.  

Edited by ToddDavid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, I'm me. I'm not "Team Dany." That's insulting.

Your response doesn't change a thing. You're saying both sides would make the exact same choice. Either there is no moral distinction between one choice and the other, or both sides are treating that moral distinction the exact same way. There's no 3rd option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't think so, I would say her flaw is she surrounded herself with people who ultimately acted to undermine her which resulted in her being pushed over the edge. She wasn't the best or the worst ruler and her actions were not worse than what ever Cersei would do if given the option. She got tired of losing based upon her mercy as it cost her things that meant dearly to her. Thus she decided on mass destruction and had she limited it to kings landing I personally would not have had a problem with it. From cheering on Neds beheading to acting as servants for Cersei machinations, their deaths while sad were ultimately collateral damage. 

What didn't make sense is her not immediately flying to red keep and destroying it or at least burning a path to it for her soldiers to invade. 

Edited by Techmaester

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

 The show literally provided oodles of foreshadowing & clues, so much so that it was tantamount to a 3rd trip to the buffet line. 

The evidence you're providing wouldn't fill a Triscuit box.

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

 The show literally provided oodles of foreshadowing & clues

Foreshadowing is not character development.  And you're going to need a hell of a lot of character development to turn a major character into Hitler.

 

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

. but would mercilessly slaughter a hundred slave owners if just 1 of them harmed a child.  She shows mercy to a dragon but virtually none to humans.

This is not an argument.

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

She didn’t target the innocent; she targeted the throne.... and she believed that the only way to successfully rule it was by creating fear. 

A fire breathing dragon instills plenty of fear. No need for innocent to be murdered.

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

1. the Throne/conqueror

2. Revenge

3. her Dragons [2 of which died]

4. Compassion for slaves

Now, 4 sits in direct conflict with 1 & 2. Not only can such conflict fracture one’s psyche, but she was destined to sacrifice her humanity for the preservation of 1 & 2, as they can’t all harmoniously coexist. The loss of 3 added fuel to the fire.

Her primary goal from day 1 has always been about “TAKING BACK WHAT’S MINE [by all means necessary]”, not “saving the people”.... and Dany’s definition of what’s hers is apparently the entire world.

She's won plenty of battles without having to resort to such tactics. Hell, she would have won KL without the needless firebombing.

 

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

.and then refuses to allow them to live the lives that they desire, even when being compensated for it.    Slaves are relatable to Dany bc of shared backgrounds.  Regular free folks, however, aren’t relatable to her. Again, mad or wicked people don’t have to be ALL evil. Heck, even the White Walkers occasionally showed compassion, mercy, what have you

The slaves are free to go and live anywhere they please. That's how releasing from bondage works.

You can't use the "muh narcissism" crutch for all acts of benevolence.

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

but would mercilessly slaughter a hundred slave owners if just 1 of them harmed a child.  She shows mercy to a dragon but virtually none to humans.

This doesn't even make sense. Are all hundred responsible for harming a child? And what harm did they do? Torture and kill? Then sure, kill them all.

3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

It was a strategic move to gain the support of foreign people of whose lands she wanted to conquer, and she quite well recognized that the Army of the Dead posed a heavy threat to her ruling Westeros.

LOL. A tyrant wouldn't have lifted a finger until he/she would have had to.

 
 
 
3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:

she realized while circling above King’s Landing that the only way for her to achieve her goal in Westeros would be by making the continent fear her, especially when she’s down to just 1 dragon and a slightly diminished army.  Girl’s gotta show what 1 dragon alone is capable of.  Again, fear is already present when you have dragons and destroy all armies in your path. The North had no intention of bending the knee. She knew that. Innocent blood bath was simply used to justify the stabbing.

 
 
 
3 hours ago, ToddDavid said:
Quote
Quote

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

If this has already been posted.....then I apologize for reposting.  I thought the foreshadowing of Daenerys going mad with the flower Daario presented her was interesting.  I don’t think I had heard that one before.

https://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen-foreshadowing-2019-5

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There’s obviously different levels of fear, and King’s Landing was certainly of the mindset that dragons are more vulnerable than anticipated bc 2 of them had recently been terminated rather easily. There was much confidence growing that they could take down the 3rd.  

Plus it’s one thing to fear a dragon based on images that your mind creates, but it’s another entirely to emotionally experience the destruction first hand, with the army there to shield you now completely out of the way.  But again, we’re not talking about our interpretation of what fear means; we’re talking about Dany’s, and she’s routinely sided with insecurity and extremity on that front.  Her answer to every insecurity or unknown variable was always “RAMP UP THE FEAR FACTOR”. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

If this has already been posted.....then I apologize for reposting.  I thought the foreshadowing of Daenerys going mad with the flower Daario presented her was interesting.  I don’t think I had heard that one before.

https://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen-foreshadowing-2019-5

There’s likely no Daenerys supporter alive who will bother to read that incriminating article unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

There’s likely no Daenerys supporter alive who will bother to read that incriminating article unfortunately.

I know what you mean.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ToddDavid said:
2 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

Ned was justified to execute Jorah. Are you really trying to cite Ned's hypothetical execution of Jorah as evidence that Ned is merciless like Dany?

Jorah knew the punishment for selling slaves was death. He did it anyway.
The slavers did not know the punishment for being born in a slaving society was death. Dany killed them anyway.

There seems to be this mistaken idea that the progression to murdering a million people goes 1 3 10 100 1000 100000 1m. That isn't how it works. It goes 1 and then 1 million. If you can justify murdering one person then you can justify murdering 1 million because all you do is apply the same justification 1 million times. This is just a psychological truth. It's why mass killings happen out of nowhere. It's why the family of mass killers often say that they had no idea their son, daughter, uncle, friend or father was capable of something like that. People were NOT paying attention to the psychology of the character of Daenerys. Her progression didn't come out of nowhere, it was developed slowly since season 1 right in front of you, but we weren't paying attention to it because we sympathize with her.

Step 1: I know it's wrong but I'm not the one doing it. (Viserys, Wineseller)
Step 2: I know it's wrong but I'm not the only one doing it. (Crucify masters in retaliation)
Step 3: I know it's wrong but someone made me do it. (Tarlys made me kill them. Sansa made me kill Varys.)
Step 4: Now she doesn't know it's wrong anymore. The mechanism that was telling her the difference between right and wrong is corrupted and broken, because she kept misusing it and broke it. That's why she feels perfectly justified to burn KL and everyone in it.

Jorah WARNED her to look away from Viserys's murder.
Barristan WARNED her not to crucify the masters and apply mercy.
Tyrion WARNED her to apply mercy and let the Tarlys think in a dark cell JUST LIKE NED DID when Ned changed his mind.

...and multiple people warned Dany to apply mercy to the INNOCENT PEOPLE of King’s Landing if and when the bell rings. She even sits atop Drogon pondering it for a minute

“Should I spare all these innocent lives and appear merciful [and thus weak in her eyes] or do I barbecue this city and make all of Westeros fear me?”

Easy answer for Dany. It’s always been about FEAR!  The only time it isn’t is when she conquers slave lands, bc they’re initially more concerned about being “free” than worrying about some narcissist on a dragon attempting to conquer their lands. There’s no need to inflict fear upon them, but if the need did arise, she most certainly would have.   

Essentially everyone remained slaves to Dany though in their service of her desire to conquer.  Little to no difference between a servant or slave soldier choosing to sacrifice their freedom for Dany’s personal quest than a slave desiring to sell himself back to the family he served, yet for some inexplicably hypocritical reason Dany is angrily intolerable to the latter and would only offer the compromise of 1 year rather than the lifetime that they wish for.  Did she force those who serve her greed to return to Meereen or elsewhere after 1 year of servitude. Hypocrite. 

Wow, very well expressed points. Except I have to disagree with the last point. Dany did expressly state that after his 1 year contract was up, it could be renewed. And we were supposed to assume that Missandei and the Unsullied could leave her service anytime they chose. Missandei said as much in S7. 

Anyway, I first started to wonder about Dany when she watched her brother being scalded to death and remained absolutely emotionless. But I forgave her that because of how Viserys treated her. But then when she was at the gates of Quarth, and she told one of the leaders she needed ships to "take back" the iron throne, he replied, "so you used to hold the throne?" and she gets a little flustered but says, "it is mine and I will take it". She repeats this mantra over, and over, and over again, and every time she did, I thought she sounds just like her brother.  Her brother, who would stop at nothing to achieve his goal.

At her war council in S7 (the one with Yara, Lady Olenna and the Dorne bitch), Tyrion cautions her that the goal was to take down Cersei without destroying KL. Dany does not say, yes, we must avoid that at all costs. She just gives Tyrion a dirty look.

So, people who say her descent happened over a few episodes had not been paying attention. The hints may have been subtle, but they were there.

Edited by SansaJonRule

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ToddDavid said:

There’s likely no Daenerys supporter alive who will bother to read that incriminating article unfortunately.

Guess what?  I was a Daenerys fan and read it.  I believe the signs were there but was just hoping her better side would prevail.    It didn’t and I accept it.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

ÍWow. Feeling the burn of some comments here.

So a young woman whose only claim to power are the dragons she hatched in a turn of really shitty luck out of misery or, before that, the savage she was forced to marry, can't use those means as a way to not be a victim?

GoT is not real life, people. Applying the morals of evil vs good in a fictoonal universe of medieval, feudal society? Really.

Even in the skewed universe of the show? Daenerys couldn't swing a broadsword over her head. Sure shit she was going to burn people to execute them. Bad luck Westeros had her dear ol' dad as the last Targ. With his fire obsession? That bitch is crazy! 

Was she a shit ruler? Yeah, she wasn't trained from infancy like the likes of Robb Stark. And even he fucked up royally.

Were her methods bloodthirsty? Her incipient rule was as one of the dothraki. Ffs she was melow as shit. 

Was there ever a chance she was not going to go coocoo? Well no. A saint wouldn't last in those conditions. Especially not having that kind of power available to her. 

Spinning back to modern day morals? Isn't that what scares the shit out of any of us minnows when we accidentally think about who is in control of nuclear weapons? 

It's not that she was always crazy. But they did insist on telling her she was always right.

Then what? 

We don't need you anymore? You're obsolete? It's been used as a plot device more than once..

So I was Team Dany. Even knowing they were going to screw her over. Same with Bland!Jon. 

But I cheered when Viserys got his crown, when Joffrey went buhbye, when Olly hung. Hell, I thought it was awesome when Cersei blew the Sept. 

I don't feel rooting for Daenerys was any more stupid or guilt inducing than going 'Go mini-Arya' when she butchered the Freys. 

My mother asked me once: 'Who are the good guys here?'

I answered 'No one. That's why the story works.'

Retconning everything one character did into 'she was evul from the womb pal, u stoopid' in order to get a HEA like ending for others was a slap in the face. 

 

This is an important point of agreement that I think goes overlooked in these conversations, so I want to put a hand across the aisle here. I don't think anybody is supposed to feel guilty for falling in love with Dany and supporting her for the whole story. On the contrary, we ALL loved her, more or less. I think that's exactly what the writers intended because it's crucial for revealing the conflict in our own hearts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

<snip>So, people who say her descent happened over a few episodes had not been paying attention. The hints may have been subtle, but they were there.<snip>

I was paying very close attention, thank you. 

Clearly, readers/viewers are supposed to wonder about whether Daenerys would snap or go mad. Clearly.

Just as clearly, she never did anything outside the scope of normal GOT-epoch conqueror actions in terms of punishment/retribution. Even more importantly, she never hurt people for no logical reason, or even without a good logical reason.

Suddenly, in the next-to-last episode, she murders hundreds of thousands of people for the puny reason of "fear." There were much better and more effective ways of instilling fear, not to mention more merciful, not to mention that didn't destroy her realm's artisans, shipyards, blacksmiths, armorers, cartwrights, merchants, etc. etc. This idea that it's OK to kill everybody because she's going to eventually bring a better world was brand new in the last episode.

It was arguably set up--not well set up, just arguably--for Daenerys to be less worried about collateral damage than she should've been in accomplishing her military goals. But what happened is that the show carefully demonstrated that her military goals were accomplished--in two ways, by ringing the bells and by having the commander throw his sword down at Jon's feet--and then she suddenly goes genocidal.

That wasn't set up at all. There was never a hint in all 8 seasons prior to epi 5 that Dany would go mass destruction for no reason, or for a stupid reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, tallTale said:

 

 

 

We were frequently shown glimpses of her bad side. That's not foreshadowing, that IS character development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

There’s likely no Daenerys supporter alive who will bother to read that incriminating article unfortunately.

I don't agree, she could be violent and cruel but ultimately that is the nature of ruling such a society. I dont disagree with the statements I just don't view her actions as fundementally wrong and in some hypothetical scenario as a North man I would have been happy to see Kings Landing burn.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

 

We were frequently shown glimpses of her bad side. That's not foreshadowing, that IS character development.

Fair enough. Please tell me the evidence that would push her to murder thousands of innocent people in a battle she already won because she wanted to install fear and/or she lost control.

Edited by tallTale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, tallTale said:

I know what you mean.

 

It's funny how the guy says there is SOME groundwork for Dany going mad bit by bit. I laughed pretty hard at that. I would be hard-pressed to find a single scene in the entire show that doesn't in some way either develop or foreshadow Dany towards the mad queen ending. To add to that, he's wrong about foreshadowing and character development. Foreshadowing isn't always character development, but character development is always foreshadowing. As long as I understand how people work. Your behavior now foreshadows your behavior later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

It's funny how the guy says there is SOME groundwork for Dany going mad bit by bit. I laughed pretty hard at that. I would be hard-pressed to find a single scene in the entire show that doesn't in some way either develop or foreshadow Dany towards the mad queen ending. To add to that, he's wrong about foreshadowing and character development. Foreshadowing isn't always character development, but character development is always foreshadowing. As long as I understand how people work. Your behavior now foreshadows your behavior later.

I'm open to the idea Daeny eventually going crazy. But not in that scenario. It was ridiculous.

Edited by tallTale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Guess what?  I was a Daenerys fan and read it.  I believe the signs were there but was just hoping her better side would prevail.    It didn’t and I accept it.   

Well then you’ve effectively separated yourself from Team Dany members.

 I too was a Dany fan early on but realized halfway through that the writers were probably pulling on our strings and that she was likely going to become the Mad King redux.  Her dragons laying firey siege to hapless victims, plus the music score accompanying it, was probably my favorite part of the show.... but there were too many warning signs of her potential madness for me to invest any further  emotional support in her.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, rustythesmith said:

<snip>I would be hard-pressed to find a single scene in the entire show that doesn't in some way either develop or foreshadow Dany towards the mad queen ending. <snip>

This is a wild exaggeration, right? Please tell me you don't actually believe that this is anywhere near true. I'll even spot you one by allowing to re-define what you actually said to be only about the Daenerys scenes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×