Jump to content
AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

We didn’t recognize early on because we were so distracted by Joffrey, the Boltons, Ramsey Snow, Cersei and all the butchery and killings going on in Westeros.  Dany  kept talking about breaking the wheel and that she would end all their political games and atrocities.  After all, they were sending assassins to murder her in Essos so the folks in Westeros must be the real bad guys. Right?   Little did we truly recognize that she would be more villainous than them in the long run.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName
Spelling error

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And if she had been portrayed as a murderous, lying hypocrite throughout, we'd have no quarrel with her end.  It's the jump from flawed heroine to monster in three episodes that seems like trolling.

This was a pure manipulation from them and a cheap trick to play with the audience's psychology, they directed Dany's arc to be a triumph, giving her supporters like Jorah, Tyrion, Melissandre, playing epic music and presenting her as a great promising figure, better than the world had seen. 

Then they went for shock and awe in purpose and blaming it on the audience. SHAME. SHAME. SHAME. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And if she had been portrayed as a murderous, lying hypocrite throughout, we'd have no quarrel with her end.  It's the jump from flawed heroine to monster in three episodes that seems like trolling.

She was portrayed that way.  That's my whole point.  Most of us (including me) cheered her on when she did these things, because the idea of a noble liberator destroying a corrupt and unjust system is appealing.  I also enjoyed it when Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor or locked Septa Mordane in a tower, or locked Ellaria Sand in a tower after poisoning innocent Myrcella.  I'm going to assume most fans had a moment of satisfaction in these moments too.

I don't know why you're calling her a liar, she's been pretty consistent since season 1.  She was giddy at the thought of her son (Rhaego) murdering hundreds of thousands. (Mirri Maz Duur told her this before the pyre).  She demands Qarth open its gates to her, because of reasons.  She agrees to buy 10k Unsullied for a dragon, then murders the leaders of the city and reclaims her property.  She claims to have moral authority over the city of Yunkai and claims she has the right to dissolve thousands of years of law and culture.  She does the same in Mereen.  Crucifying 162 people and burning nobles along the way, all because she was right.

She then "invades" Westeros, assists with the Army of the Dead, before nuking tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in King's Landing, before telling everyone she will continue to do the same until the whole world submits to her rule. 

 

It was there from the beginning, but most of us ignored the morality of her actions because we liked her as a character/person.

Edited by WalkinDude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Who did she free? Many of them willingly re-entered servitude just like during Jim Crow and the carpetbaggers. They just didn't call it that.

She did not defeat the NK. Her strategy was shit and her dragons ineffective. If it hadn't been for Bran and Arya, they would have all died. It turns out she wasn't even necessary.

I expected the realm to break up, but the Westerosi seem like they want to stay together. For now at least. 

It’s mentioned offhand a few slaves need work. Then that one high skill slave wants the direction. Given that they leave Meereen having beaten the masters and Tyrion leaving the city better off I wouldn’t read too much into that.

The strategy looked like a group act. Plus it was Jons idea to wait and trap the NK so I’d infer it’s mostly HIS plan. Which, makes sense considering his stellar command at the Battle of the Bastards.

Arya admits in episode 4 that she could not have killed the NK without Dany. Bran did precisely nothing. There is no difference between Dany and Theodan in this regard. She saved Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

We didn’t recognize early on because we were so distracted by Joffrey, the Boltons, Ramsey Snow, Cersei and all the butchery and killings going on in Westeros.  Dany  kept talking about breaking the wheel and that she would end all their political games and atrocities.  After all, they were sending assassins to murder her in Essos so the folks in Westeros must be the real bad guys. Right?   Little did we truly recognize that she would be more villainous than them in the long rum.

 No dear, they didn't want us to recognize. They are the directors, they know what they present. Don't fall for this lame excuse. All of this was a set up from their part. This was no excuse, they are professionals.

Blaming the audience is unheard of. They are the ones sending the message. So either they did this in purpose or failed in delivering it. Both cases, they control the tone, the atmosphere, the music. 

Edited by Nightwish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

This was a pure manipulation from them and a cheap trick to play with the audience's psychology, they directed Dany's arc to be a triumph, giving her supporters like Jorah, Tyrion, Melissandre, playing epic music and presenting her as a great promising figure, better than the world had seen. 

Then they went for shock and awe in purpose and blaming it on the audience. SHAME. SHAME. SHAME. 

This is clearly what Martin is doing too.  He's breaking a trope.  I fully expect Jon to be the one to be the "savior" in the Battle for The Dawn in the books, instead of fan service Arya.  We saw how Danerys acted when the people cheered Jon as the leader of the North. Imagine if he's the Hero of Winterfell too.  

If you don't like Danerys becoming the "Mad Queen", you're not going to enjoy the books either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

 No dear, they didn't want us to recognize. They are the directors, they know what they present. Don't fall for this lame excuse. All of this was a set up from their part. This was no excuse, they are professionals.

So you're unhappy they showed a person committing terrible atrocities that no person would tolerate in our own world, and forced you to face your approval of such crimes?

 

Do you think Arya murdering all the Freys and forcing Walder to eat his sons is morally ok?

Edited by WalkinDude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Who did she free? Many of them willingly re-entered servitude just like during Jim Crow and the carpetbaggers. They just didn't call it that.

She did not defeat the NK. Her strategy was shit and her dragons ineffective. If it hadn't been for Bran and Arya, they would have all died. It turns out she wasn't even necessary.

I expected the realm to break up, but the Westerosi seem like they want to stay together. For now at least. 

She brought most of the soldiers and played a big part in the fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, WalkinDude said:

So you're unhappy they showed a person committing terrible atrocities that no person would tolerate in our own world, and forced you to face your approval of such crimes?

Haha, this is so laughable: no its exactly the opposite. They never showed a person committing terrible atrocities. 

But they want to persuade the audience, they did. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

This was a pure manipulation from them and a cheap trick to play with the audience's psychology, they directed Dany's arc to be a triumph, giving her supporters like Jorah, Tyrion, Melissandre, playing epic music and presenting her as a great promising figure, better than the world had seen. 

Then they went for shock and awe in purpose and blaming it on the audience. SHAME. SHAME. SHAME. 

 We’re supposed to like Dany, because she’s a young girl who was abused and now we all want to see her succeed in liberating all the people of Planetos. 

Then she doesn’t, because she’s not equipped to do that and this isn’t a fairytale. 

Worth mentioning too that her most devoted follower, Jorah, is an UNREPENTANT slaver himself. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She brought most of the soldiers and played a big part in the fight.

The Army of the living did nothing that entire fight.  We all saw the Dothraki flaming arakhs fade out.  We saw the Unsullied retreat to inside the walls of winterfell.  And we saw the Army of the dead kill everyone but main characters.  If Arya hadn't jumped from out of nowhere and stabbed the Night King, the Others would have won.  Dany's forces were a bumper like every other Army.  She roasted the Night King and it had zero impact.  Danerys absolutely deserves credit for assisting in the battle, that can't be denied.  But the idea that her contribution was greater or had a larger impact than anyone else doesn't match the story we were shown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Haha, this is so laughable: no its exactly the opposite. They never showed a person committing terrible atrocities. 

But they want to persuade the audience, they did. 

So when she burned the noble in the dragon pit of Mereen, and forced Hizdar to marry her, that was a morally good action?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

So you're unhappy they showed a person committing terrible atrocities that no person would tolerate in our own world, and forced you to face your approval of such crimes?

This is a medieval world governed by medieval military ethics, for most of the story, not modern military ethics.  But, quite slyly, the show runners started shifting the goalposts so that Dany begins to be judged by modern military ethics, which allows Varys to believe that she's evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

This is a medieval world governed by medieval military ethics, for most of the story, not modern military ethics.  But, quite slyly, the show runners started shifting the goalposts so that Dany begins to be judged by modern military ethics, which allows Varys to believe that she's evil.

Right, so the idea of slavery being morally reprehensible and justifying the thousands she killed in Essos falls kind of flat if you follow your own logic.

Valyria was a slave city.  Danerys is Valyrian.  Her ancestors had no issue with invading a foreign land and using their dragons to burn and murder anyone who didn't recognize their genetic superiority.  This is the basis for her entire claim to the throne.  I don't see how Serfdom is morally superior to the slavery of Essos.

Edited by WalkinDude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

Until this episode I didnt like or enjoy Danys character. But Tyrions speech and her lines to Jon before he kills her really put it together for me. Her journey was that of a tragic hero. She had done so much good and all her decisions worked so well after walking into Drogos funeral pyre that she had to believe she was in the right. How could the people of Kingslanding choose the tyrant Cersei over a liberator? In the end she wasnt the mad queen, she was the breaker of the wheel.

All she knew her entire life, was destiny. All her older brother talked about was their destiny. By the time she had to burn Drogo, she had an inkling that the fire would not kill her. Can you imagine what kind of justification that gives someone? I survived this fire and brought forth dragons. It was go big or go home and she did both. Its just that in the beginning, she wasn't so jaded. I agree with your post, she truly believed she was in the right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

Tyrion was just trying to save his ass (as usual) so he gave Jon multiple arguments to persuade him to kill Dany. When others didn't work, he put the family argument upfront (and that made the job).

So he is not the super objective person. People can say anything to save their life. So his narrative here is biased as hell.

the more you think about it, the more apparent it gets how these characters are fucking awful people. aside from maybe Davos.

Dany should have NEVER trusted Tyrion, or at least should have sent him away after his first fuck up. Should have never followed his advice to "fetch" a WW beyond The Wall and instead should have headed straight to KL with her three dragons, take the city in 2 hours max with few casualties. She should have never went to the North to deal with those snakes who would use her to save their asses and then ultimately plot against her leading to her demise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Right, so the idea of slavery being morally reprehensible and justifying the thousands she killed in Essos falls kind of flat if you follow your own logic.

Valyria was a slave city.  Danerys is Valyrian.  Her ancestors had no issue with invading a foreign land and using their dragons to burn and murder anyone who didn't recognize their genetic superiority.  This is the basis for her entire claim to the throne.  I don't see how Serfdom is morally superior to the slavery of Essos.

She's not responsible for what her ancestors did 400 years ago, and even in medieval societies, there were opponents of slavery ( the Normans ended it in England).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, WalkinDude said:

So when she burned the noble in the dragon pit of Mereen, and forced Hizdar to marry her, that was a morally good action?  

The Harpies killing innocents in the streets is a morally good action?

 Ned beheading a kid for running out from the NW is a morally good action?

Arya making  the Freys a pie is a morally good action?

Sansa blaming the one who has come to her aid and plotting against her is a good action?

Varys going to Lady Olenna and promising Blood and Fire is a morally good action?

The Tarlys betraying Olenna and rooting for Cersei, after blowing up the Sept, is a morally good action? 

Decide if this world is white and black or just grey as you say, because you are confused.  

Plus I am not the director here presenting immoral acts as glorious ones. This is not about Dany's character. It's about how it is presented by the creators. The cinematography. The atmosphere. I don't understand why you excuse their argument: they showed Dany's story as they showed Arya's story and even Jon's story. With sacrifices, killings and battles for the return home. But she was on that side. The Good Side. 

And of course that's where they invested to create surprise. They didn't invest on character development other than breaking her down on season 8. 

So tossing back the ball to the audience: "you failed to see it" is a void argument. No dear, you are the directors and you are the script writers, and if you had wanted a Mad Queen you failed to create her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

The Army of the living did nothing that entire fight.  We all saw the Dothraki flaming arakhs fade out.  We saw the Unsullied retreat to inside the walls of winterfell.  And we saw the Army of the dead kill everyone but main characters.  If Arya hadn't jumped from out of nowhere and stabbed the Night King, the Others would have won.  Dany's forces were a bumper like every other Army.  She roasted the Night King and it had zero impact.  Danerys absolutely deserves credit for assisting in the battle, that can't be denied.  But the idea that her contribution was greater or had a larger impact than anyone else doesn't match the story we were shown.

she provided all her forces in the defense of Winterfell. that would be about 70-80% of the people standing in between the castle and the dead plus 2 fire-breathing dragons. The dead still got through, now imagine if they didn't have those 80% of extra soldiers dying to hold the dead back. Winterfell would have been swarmed in 10 min and the NK would have more people to his army of the dead now heading south.

Basically her army were cannon fodder for the Starks.

Edited by Nami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

So tossing back the ball to the audience: "you failed to see it" is a void argument. No dear, you are the directors and you are the script writers, and if you had wanted a Mad Queen you failed to create her. 

I think this is right. It's up to them to convince their audience. It’s like a teacher who fails every student in the class for failing to learn, unable to see that the fault lies with the teaching not with the students.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×