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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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Rhaenyra was crowned as Queen.  A majority of lords acknowledged her claim. Stannis thinks of her as a usurper, but after TWOIAF and F & B we know she was legitimately Queen.  So, there's no Salic law, even if there is widespread prejudice against female rule.

In the Show, Dany as at least, a strong claim to the IT.  Much stronger than the claims of several English and Scottish Kings.

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Posted (edited)

If you feel guilty for cheering on Dany then you should look at your own morality rather than D&D because as others have rightly said in this thread the signs were always there. If anything I don't think Dany is so different from Stannis, Olenna or Cersei, it's just that she has been so romanticised by viewers, and characters on the show, that her imperialist nature appears more frightful than that of the others, when it's really no different.

Dany's goal was to become queen of the seven kingdoms. This was her primary goal always and in season 1 this was very clear to us. She may have broken physical chains but not mental chains and I think this was strategic as it was altruistic. And take note that it was Barriston's counsel that soldiers risk themselves for kings/queens because they believe in them not because they have been bought that made her see that buying the Unsullied wouldn't be enough; she needed their devotion too. By 'freeing' them she achieved this, because really what else would an army who have been trained to kill from childhood do with their newfound freedom than work for a kinda master? 

My husband has always been suspicious of her white saviour complex and I know others have as well. But I think people's blind love for Dany is reminiscent of how we support western presidents/prime ministers, missionaries and aid workers in real life, working in African, Asian and South American countries in the name of making things better, when really they are securing their own interests and superiority. Dany got rid of slavery in Mereen, which was a good act, but then she made herself queen of the region rather than empowering someone from that region to take control and supporting them to do it. What does that tell you? Dany seemed to genuinely abhor slavery and rape, no doubt because she had been sold and abused herself, and she was willing to fight and take risks to get rid of them but this didn't take precedent over her primary goal of becoming queen.

Dany is a great complex character and I think people's reactions to her are very interesting. Some of you feel you are being made to feel guilty but some of us have always found her suspect 

Edited by Sansa Stark's lemon cakes

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17 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

At the end of the day the person who is able to seize the throne by rebellion or conquest and then has the ability to keep the throne with the support of allies and the people is the one who has the most right to be the king.  Titles and inherent right mean nothing if you are unable to seize power and keep it. 

And the person who loses it forfeits it, and his offspring have no god given right to it. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

And that is the response to my post? What age are you? Did you even understand what I just wrote? Or even tried to do so? 

btw, a "violent conqueror", seriously? in a world where 90% of problems are solved by violence?

I understand it. I'm just tired of arguing with people who have no concept of primogeniture or what a good ruler it. I can't help it if people insist on defending Dany's rights because they're in love with a fictional character to the point of mindless devotion. It sounds just like the political situation here in the US, and some of you really need to take a step back and do some self-reflection. The signs of Dany being a violent conqueror and autocrat rather than a just ruler have been there all along. Some people just refuse to see it. 

Quote

btw, a "violent conqueror", seriously? in a world where 90% of problems are solved by violence?

Ah, that dangerous game of whataboutism. 

The Council of 101 AC set the precedent that a woman cannot inherit the throne, nor a male descendant of a woman, unless there are no other males. And even then it's a problem. And there are other males--Jon in the show, Aegon in the books, who as the eldest child of the crown prince has the best claim of all. She has no legal right to anything. And it's all moot anyway. The throne no longer descends from Aerys. It descends from Robert. He was the legally crowned king of the Seven Kingdoms, and Viserys and Dany had no further rightful or legal claim to the throne. She may well be a descendant of Aegon V, but she is a woman. 

The line of succession (based on Joffrey's and Tommen's illegitimacy) is Stannis, Renly, Shireen. 

And that's all there is to it.

Edited by Ice Queen

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2 hours ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

 But I think people's blind love for Dany is reminiscent of how we support western presidents/prime ministers, missionaries and aid workers in real life, working in African, Asian and South American countries in the name of making things better, when really they are securing their own interests and superiority.

Can you (or your husband :mellow:) please explain us how people who carry out humanitarian mine clearance, dig wells in dry areas, treat victims of armed conflict or natural disasters, etc. are "securing their own interests and superiority" ?

And how can you put them in the same bag as missionaries and politicians?

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43 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I understand it. I'm just tired of arguing with people who have no concept of primogeniture or what a good ruler it. I can't help it if people insist on defending Dany's rights because they're in love with a fictional character to the point of mindless devotion. It sounds just like the political situation here in the US, and some of you really need to take a step back and do some self-reflection. The signs of Dany being a violent conqueror and autocrat rather than a just ruler have been there all along. Some people just refuse to see it. 

Ah, that dangerous game of whataboutism. 

The Council of 101 AC set the precedent that a woman cannot inherit the throne, nor a male descendant of a woman, unless there are no other males. And even then it's a problem. And there are other males--Jon in the show, Aegon in the books, who as the eldest child of the crown prince has the best claim of all. She has no legal right to anything. And it's all moot anyway. The throne no longer descends from Aerys. It descends from Robert. He was the legally crowned king of the Seven Kingdoms, and Viserys and Dany had no further rightful or legal claim to the throne. She may well be a descendant of Aegon V, but she is a woman. 

The line of succession (based on Joffrey's and Tommen's illegitimacy) is Stannis, Renly, Shireen. 

And that's all there is to it.

This thread is about the show. No Council of 101 AC, and your comparison with the politic situation in the US makes little sense (no one has ever had the opportunity to oust Dany by voting against her afaik). 

Frankly at this point who gives a shit about rules of inheritance? We're talking about coherence in a given universe that has its rules and to which a 21st century filter cannot and should not be applied. FFS, I never even really liked that girl, her smugness, her cruelty… :rolleyes:

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For all people around this thread keep harping around the politics of sucession and the weird concept that once lost, a line of inheritance ceases to exist, I wonder if that means the North should just stop fighting for independence? After all, their King knelt, so that's done? Adieu, Stark Kings. If, since Portugal was once ruled by half a handful Castillian kings, we should've just shrugged and, wellp, ok?

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17 hours ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

If you feel guilty for cheering on Dany then you should look at your own morality rather than D&D because as others have rightly said in this thread the signs were always there.

In other words, anyone who feels guilty must needs think of themselves as (a) an awful person who (b) was watching the show wrong? Lovely! :D

Or, you can do what I do, and not feel one damned bit! guilty, because her character turn, as seen in the show, was done abruptly and unskillfully, and that is not our fault.

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17 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Can you (or your husband :mellow:) please explain us how people who carry out humanitarian mine clearance, dig wells in dry areas, treat victims of armed conflict or natural disasters, etc. are "securing their own interests and superiority" ?

And how can you put them in the same bag as missionaries and politicians?

Is this a serious question? 

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1 hour ago, Gendelsdottir said:

In other words, anyone who feels guilty must needs think of themselves as (a) an awful person who (b) was watching the show wrong? Lovely! :D

Or, you can do what I do, and not feel one damned bit! guilty, because her character turn, as seen in the show, was done abruptly and unskillfully, and that is not our fault.

You are projecting. Why do you and some others feel you have to be at fault in any way is what I'm curious about. There are few characters in GoT to outright love as they are all complex, and some of us saw from the beginning that Dany was one of them. I definitely supported her in the beginning though I saw her saviour complex. This whole 'we are being made to feel guilty because Dany was always a saint and now she's suddenly evil' narrative is very reminiscent of real life of how we turn a blind eye to people's flaws to support them rather than acknowledging these flaws and admitting that we support them in spite of them for xyz reasons. 

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11 minutes ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

you and some others feel you have to be at fault in any way

The point is that I do NOT feel at fault, nor SHOULD I feel at fault. I'll repeat: I do not feel guilty. It is not my fault.

Clear enough?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Gendelsdottir said:

The point is that I do NOT feel at fault, nor SHOULD I feel at fault. I'll repeat: I do not feel guilty. It is not my fault.

Clear enough?

It's clear you are still projecting and you are under the false impression that I actually care about your guilt. 

Edited by Sansa Stark's lemon cakes

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15 minutes ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

You are projecting. Why do you and some others feel you have to be at fault in any way is what I'm curious about. 

No one here feels at fault. The OP wrote "they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey"; it was a figure of speech, not an established fact.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why did some people see it coming and others did not?

I think it's just down to our subjective stances on power, politics, governance, good and evil. Dany's character has been the benevolent chain-breaking compassionate queen as well as a power-hungry imperialist ruthless ruler and I think these tendencies have just weighed up differently for everyone. Though tbh I find it surprising that some are claiming the latter (negative) aspects of her just suddenly sprung up in season 8.

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1 minute ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

It's clear you are still projecting and you are under the false impression that I actually care about your feelings.

Your opinion of *me* is irrelevant! :)  I'm speaking only for myself. I don't speak on anyone else's behalf. Nor am I attributing a view to anyone else. That is what projection is.

Topic: Dany's face-heel turn was unskillfully and abruptly done. I do not feel guilty about that, because I wasn't scripting the show.

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11 minutes ago, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

I think it's just down to our subjective stances on power, politics, governance, good and evil. Dany's character has been the benevolent chain-breaking compassionate queen as well as a power-hungry imperialist ruthless ruler and I think these tendencies have just weighed up differently for everyone. Though tbh I find it surprising that some are claiming the latter (negative) aspects of her just suddenly sprung up in season 8.

https://www.google.com/search?q=asoiaf+is+daenerys+mad+site:asoiaf.westeros.org&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzkYPIqtfiAhUqTBUIHWhOD9cQrQIIHjAA

Its not recent

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why did some people see it coming and others did not?

Book readers have debated Dany's character for years.  

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22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Book readers have debated Dany's character for years.  

Indeed they have! This forum's discussion board for the aSoIaF books runs to 1685 pages of topics. Seven hells! :o I've not entered those particular lists. The Miscellaneous > Literature board looks interesting, though.

I'm not Team Dany by any means; that's not how I watch a show. But I do feel that her character was ill-served, as were several others.

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On 6/6/2019 at 4:47 PM, Sansa Stark's lemon cakes said:

white saviour complex 

I don't disagree that this might well be an issue in how it the show has come across, but IMHO I don't think that was meant to be a part of the story when George built this world originally.  Valyria is in Essos as well, with its descendants (Dany's ethnic group) dominating Volantis and the free cities. They are in league with the Ghiscari slavers. In this universe, anyone can be enslaved including "white people" i.e. you have Lyseni (ethnic Valyrian) bed slaves, you have Tyrion and Jorah enslaved. It should not have been a race thing from our real world at all. Unfortunately the show made it look like sinister Middle Eastern looking dudes enslaved Black and I don't know Asian people who had to be rescued by a white woman. There should really have been Valyrian dudes collaborating with the slavers and there should have been more white slaves as well to reflect the world created originally by George.

And Essos overall is not inferior to Wessos, it has better roads, better technology (e.g. Myrish glass I.e. telescopes), cities bigger than Wessos. It was meant to be very different from Wessos of course, but the parallel is not exactly Asia+Africa vs Europe in the 19th to 21st centuries.

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