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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there's nothing to take up with the author, only with your interpretation.

You think his message is that war is always wrong.  I believe him, when he says some wars are worth fighting.

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists informs the public about threats to the survival and development of humanity from nuclear weapons, climate change, and technology. It was established in 1945 with the Manhattan Project. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they started to warn the public about the consequences of these weapons. These scientists, who are still on that mission today, asked him a serious question about the meaning of dragon power in his work, and he gave them one. And you just don't want to engage with it at all?

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12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists informs the public about threats to the survival and development of humanity from nuclear weapons, climate change, and technology. It was established in 1945 with the Manhattan Project. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they started to warn the public about the consequences of these weapons. These scientists, who are still on that mission today, asked him a serious question about the meaning of dragon power in his work, and he gave them one. And you just don't want to engage with it at all?

I can only reiterate that he has said some wars, like WWII, are worth fighting.  I would suggest that Dany's campaign in Slavers Bay is one such war.

If your take from these books is that no war, however well-intentioned, is worth fighting, then we must just agree to differ.

Edit:  As I said upthread, the power of a nuclear weapon is vastly greater than that of any dragon in this series, let alone dragons as small as Daenerys'.

Edited by SeanF

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50 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists informs the public about threats to the survival and development of humanity from nuclear weapons, climate change, and technology. It was established in 1945 with the Manhattan Project. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they started to warn the public about the consequences of these weapons. These scientists, who are still on that mission today, asked him a serious question about the meaning of dragon power in his work, and he gave them one. And you just don't want to engage with it at all?

1) Dragons do not even come close to having the destructive potential of nuclear weapons.

2) Even if they did, there is a serious argument to be made in IR that nuclear weapons have actually made the world safer. Certainly, disastrous great power conflicts have declined to 0 since their introduction. 

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18 hours ago, aromaticanalysis said:

1) Dragons do not even come close to having the destructive potential of nuclear weapons.

2) Even if they did, there is a serious argument to be made in IR that nuclear weapons have actually made the world safer. Certainly, disastrous great power conflicts have declined to 0 since their introduction. 

Do you want to stay willfully ignorant?

Quote

 “I have tried to make it explicit in the novels that the dragons are destructive forces, and Dany has found that out as she tried to rule the city of Meereen and be queen there...She has the power to destroy, she can wipe out entire cities, and we certainly see that in Fire and Blood, we see the dragons wiping out entire armies, wiping out towns and cities, destroying them, but that doesn’t necessarily enable you to rule — it just enables you to destroy.” - GRRM, 2018

Deterrence theory usually works when other powers have nukes and both parties don't want MAD. This was explored when Dany was working toward peace in Meereen, but if she uses them, that theory goes out the window. That's why paying attention to what's going on in Dany's head is important. And if King's Landing has wildfire and Dany learns about this, it won't matter if she stops caring about loss of life altogether.

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

I can only reiterate that he has said some wars, like WWII, are worth fighting.  I would suggest that Dany's campaign in Slavers Bay is one such war.

If your take from these books is that no war, however well-intentioned, is worth fighting, then we must just agree to differ.

Edit:  As I said upthread, the power of a nuclear weapon is vastly greater than that of any dragon in this series, let alone dragons as small as Daenerys'.

That "wars are worth fighting" quote is vague as hell, it could be about any war in fiction or in real life, and isn't explicit like the Atomic Scientists one is.

And you keep trying to characterize me as a pacifist, but that's not what my argument is at all. My take is that if you must oppose slavery, try to vary your tactics for christ sake. Like perhaps, after conquering people, try to show how a free city can actually prosper. Using other tactics besides a flying flamethrower all the time might be helpful because the story clearly snaps back at the idea that using dragons solves problems!  We constantly see how things are destroyed with them, not built. That's why narratively, Dany had to destroy KL because it goes back to this theme.

Dany can either make a dead city bloom (Vaes Tolerro, Meereen, King’s Landing) and settle for an imperfect victory, or she can “kill the Sons of the Harpy and their sons and their sons” but she won’t be able to feed people or build something that lasts long-term. 

It's clear that all this writing about House Targaryen is exploring the limitations of what ruling through nuclear power can achieve. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Using violence against enemies is often necessary, in Martin's world as in ours.  Otherwise, you and your people die.  That applies regardless of your surname.

In fact, both show and books make plain that she's willing to negotiate.  The problem is that many slavers will only settle for the restoration of slavery.  That has to be non-negotiable.  And they break treaties. And, it's difficult to make a city prosper when your enemies are waging war and terrorist campaigns against you, in order to enslave your people.

The show made clear that it was a waste of time to negotiate with Cersei, or slavers, or Dothraki Khals.  These people either don't stick to bargains, or they want to do horrible things to you.  If your enemies won't negotiate in good faith, what option is available, apart from violence?

In the books, some of the Great Masters and the Yunkish do want peace.  But the big powers (Volantis, Qarth, New Ghis) want to stamp out a free Meereen.

Edited by SeanF

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