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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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I forgot to add that I disagree that Slavers Bay is better off. That has more to do with the show ending the SB story line prematurely. Just because Dany destroyed some ships and killed a couple of emissaries doesn't mean that SB isn't in serious turmoil. Still, this doesn't mean that she's crazy or immoral.

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3 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

I think the show indeed wants you to question everything, especially anything about power, violence, and legitimacy.
Game of thrones is not a fantasy saga with political elements thrown in the mix, Game of thrones is a political saga with fantasy elements thrown in the mix, and that's probably one of the reasons the show is called "Game of thrones" and not "a song of ice and fire".

I think Game of Thrones first few seasons is something entirely different than Game of Thrones last few seasons.

The last few seasons is Game of Thrones turned into Narnia with the Ice Queen (only with dragons and fire) as the final boss. Then the heroes get their happy Narnia ending, going on new adventures or becoming king and queen.

The show may say it wants us to question Dany, as an explanation of why it so abruptly shifted gear, but it actually does not really want us to question anything at all. It all turned out to be a children's fairy tale after all. 

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1 minute ago, beeeeeen said:

Sex and violence attract audiences yes, but that doesn't mean the show has no other purpose. Good stories do not exist just to entertain us, good stories exist to make us think about real life.

That depends on what you determine as a good story then...B)

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8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"Sansa, I know she massacred a million people but she's really a good queen. If you could just give her a chance. . ."

"Okay, she went a bit OTT, but what ruler doesn't from time to time.?"

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2 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

I think Game of Thrones first few seasons is something entirely different than Game of Thrones last few seasons.

The last few seasons is Game of Thrones turned into Narnia with the Ice Queen (only with dragons and fire) as the final boss. Then the heroes get their happy Narnia ending, going on new adventures or becoming king and queen.

The show may say it wants us to question Dany, as an explanation of why it so abruptly shifted gear, but it actually does not really want us to question anything at all. It all turned out to be a children's fairy tale after all. 

i strongly disagree with you on that. You can think whatever you want about the quality of the show in the last seasons, but the writers never forgot the political nature of the show, that is why the epilogue was about who should be king, and a big part of Tyrion's reasoning behind the choice of Bran as a king echoes what Varys told him several episodes ago: the best king is the one who doesn't want to be king. You may think it's been done poorly, i don't, although i admit it could have been done a little better, but it's a HUGE political statement. Daenerys wanted power, and she wanted it because she felt it was hers by bloodright, that's a big WRONG reason to be given power.
Varys made mistakes during the whole story, but he was the voice of reason, he was the one who had the best way of thinking, and that's why he had to die, he had to be sacrified so everybody could see he was right, and the last episode is basically Varys telling us, and telling Tyrion and Jon "I TOLD YOU!!!!"

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6 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

I think Game of Thrones first few seasons is something entirely different than Game of Thrones last few seasons.

The last few seasons is Game of Thrones turned into Narnia with the Ice Queen (only with dragons and fire) as the final boss. Then the heroes get their happy Narnia ending, going on new adventures or becoming king and queen.

The show may say it wants us to question Dany, as an explanation of why it so abruptly shifted gear, but it actually does not really want us to question anything at all. It all turned out to be a children's fairy tale after all. 

In the end there is an extraterrestrial being for a king and the part where Jon says goodbye is a copy paste from the LOTR... only Galdaf was missing...:lmao:thank God they didn't repeat the same lines: Buy Frodo, Buy Pipin. 

By hey all the rest are supposed to be reality: Oh wait I forgot Arya's immortal skin and Faceless Education. Now we are ok. And we can deduct very realistic meanings out of a very realistic ending. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

That depends on what you determine as a good story then...B)

Maybe "good" story is not the right term... let's say "great" story instead.

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1 minute ago, beeeeeen said:

 Maybe "good" story is not the right term... let's say "great" story instead.

No problem....

That depends on what you determine as a great story then...B)

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2 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

i strongly disagree with you on that. You can think whatever you want about the quality of the show in the last seasons, but the writers never forgot the political nature of the show, that is why the epilogue was about who should be king, and a big part of Tyrion's reasoning behind the choice of Bran as a king echoes what Varys told him several episodes ago: the best king is the one who doesn't want to be king. You may think it's been done poorly, i don't, although i admit it could have been done a little better, but it's a HUGE political statement. Daenerys wanted power, and she wanted it because she felt it was hers by bloodright, that's a big WRONG reason to be given power.
Varys made mistakes during the whole story, but he was the voice of reason, he was the one who had the best way of thinking, and that's why he had to die, he had to be sacrified so everybody could see he was right, and the last episode is basically Varys telling us, and telling Tyrion and Jon "I TOLD YOU!!!!"

Yet, at the end of Season 6, Varys was promising Olenna Fire and Blood.  And Varys brought about the situation he wanted to avoid.  The more he plotted against Daenerys, the more paranoid she became. Like everyone else, his character arc was all over the place. 

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2 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

Varys made mistakes during the whole story, but he was the voice of reason, he was the one who had the best way of thinking, and that's why he had to die, he had to be sacrified so everybody could see he was right, and the last episode is basically Varys telling us, and telling Tyrion and Jon "I TOLD YOU!!!!"

Varys was one of the many people who tried to kill Dany, as in using violence, in order to reach a goal. So in that case, the message is: Violence is okay as long as you're right and they are wrong.

(I'm fairly certain he was about to try to poison Dany at the end, I'm disappointed that they didn't make that more clear.)

Varys was also one of the many people who seemed to change their minds about things without us going through a process with the character to see why on earth they changed their minds. He worked to put Dany's brother on the throne in the beginning. We could have seen Varys slowly learning that this was not the right way, to see true anguish. Some awesome scenes of real inner drama. What a waste of a potentially interesting character.

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Just now, Nightwish said:

No problem....

That depends on what you determine as a great story then...B)

To me a great story is a story that is more than just a story, it's a story that make us think about ourselves, about the world, about political or philosophical matters.
It can be well done, or it can be poorly done, i'm not here to tell you what to think about Game of thrones on this matter, but i think you are wrong if you do not see that the show was mainly about politics.

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Terrible storytelling, basically all from the mouth piece of Tyrion, show don't tell you incompetents.

Things don't flow, they happen because of convenience, set pieces, heavy handed "what I wanted to do". It's disappointing and insulting.

People keep trying to justify and make up convoluted reasons where there is nothing. Remember the horse last episode, and how Arya was gonna kill a green eye, a queen. or such nonsense.

What did Jon do? He killed a kid in cold blood. He killed someone for disobedience. He accepted to be king and then gave it away when support was already guaranteed.  His incompetence and lack of firm hand to do what is necessary lead to problems after problems. Real leaders have to make tough decisions.

Remember the red wedding? remember the burning by wildfire of the defeated soldiers by the lannisters? Tyrion regrets killing his father, what a joke. DD tells them something and they just defend it. This a plot is not. It is below a conventional children's story. Fan service everywhere, they have no ideas or spine.

 

Remember the plot that Jon is the real heir and the best ruler possible? They totally shat on that.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

 


Well, it's not a matter of whether or not they showed the result of her destruction. It's good that they did.

The reason for the criticism is that this was the first time they showed her losing the struggle between the ruthless side of her and the goodhearted side. And *that* is the story they were telling in that moment. It's certainly a story worthy of being told. They should not have cut that part out.

But even more than that, they should have shown the struggle a long time before. How it affected her. How it affected people around her. They should even have had conversations about this. Dany should have said: I'm afraid of what I'm becoming. Am I wrong? Like Jon did. Only her saying it would have given the question a real impact. There could have been so many good scenes and twists and turns because of her struggle. But they saved it until the very end. What a wasted opportunity of a potentially interesting character.

In that case I was specifically referring to not showing her perspective during the slaughter. I am the last person who will defend the last two seasons writing, but in my previous post I was saying I do think she was being beautifully built up as a tyrant beneath most oblivious viewers noses. 

As I mentioned seasons 1-4 I felt like she was absolutely being built up as a sociopath villain with a god complex since this was GoT not some generic fantasy. Season 7 is such a mess its hard for me to even remember any build up there, but in 8 her early scenes with her going from all smiles to totally cold give the heebie jeebies. 

I don't mind her never having moments where she is afraid of herself etc. and think she lets slip a few times her state of mind, such as when she is talking to Tyrion and reveals she was just impatient to get on with it in regards to leaving Dario behind. 

And in some ways she cant fully be blamed for the god complex she has- You can to an extent compare it to Viserys who knew he was royalty and had built up a path/destiny for himself in his mind and became deranged when after much hardship it didn't come to fruition- In Danys case she had the same knowledge about her lineage he did, genuinely participated in a miracle that netted her three dragons, obtained multiple armies totally loyal to her, and was surrounded by mostly vile people involved in slavery who she could liberate and would literally lift her up and chant to her. 

It is easy to see how she inevitably weld become something of a tyrant, though again this season has a plethora of problems, one of which is the transition into being full "Mad Queen".

Edited by kevinbgwrites

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yet, at the end of Season 6, Varys was promising Olenna Fire and Blood.  And Varys brought about the situation he wanted to avoid.  The more he plotted against Daenerys, the more paranoid she became. Like everyone else, his character arc was all over the place. 

That is why i say that Varys made mistakes... he should have never support Daenerys in the first place. But Varys may have been the voice of reason of the show, he was human and made mistakes, he genuinely thought she was the best choice, like we did when she was in Essos. As Tyrion said, she was killing bad guys and we were cheering for her, and then she started to burn peoples just to show how powerfull she was, and Varys started to doubt.

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Just now, beeeeeen said:

To me a great story is a story that is more than just a story, it's a story that make us think about ourselves, about the world, about political or philosophical matters.
It can be well done, or it can be poorly done, i'm not here to tell you what to think about Game of thrones on this matter, but i think you are wrong if you do not see that the show was mainly about politics.

So you are here to tell me what to think...

It had potential that doesn't mean they were fulfilled. For me for example placing Bran on the throne as a king says nothing about politics due to his nature. Neither I agree with the idea "the best king is the one who doesn't want to be king."    , because the real world doesn't work this way. Really it isn't. 

 

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

That was the moment it just dawned on me that Dany is basically Light Yamagi. People have been looking away for so long because "Dany only kills bad people", which is fun logic to justify cold blooded murder, which she did pretty often; the nobles of Meereen being the worst case of this, but what she did to Astapor wasn't much better. Naturally going back on your word is fine "when the person your dealing with is evil", by her logic and the supporters of Dany. It's even worse knowing that many of the people she killed aren't even ones who are openly trying to kill her. The slavers in Astapor she basically kills, simply because "they're evil" and for no other reason. The nobles in Meereen she also kills "because they're evil" and no other reason; I wonder if she did any real investigation into which ones were hurting those kids and which weren't. Tyrion's right, there's only so long, before our real world views of what evil is and her warped one can match.

It's funny because I also thought she was Light Yagami, but the way he descended actually made sense. They showed him killing detectives off that were following him. He knew they were innocent, but to him their deaths were necessary. There was a logical and long series of events that led to his descent into madness. 

 

Death Note is a perfect example of this idea working, but again he didn't have the lame mad targ excuse. This show/series was just lazy. 

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5 minutes ago, Dragonslack said:

Terrible storytelling, basically all from the mouth piece of Tyrion, show don't tell you incompetents.

Things don't flow, they happen because of convenience, set pieces, heavy handed "what I wanted to do". It's disappointing and insulting.

People keep trying to justify and make up convoluted reasons where there is nothing. Remember the horse last episode, and how Arya was gonna kill a green eye, a queen. or such nonsense.

What did Jon do? He killed a kid in cold blood. He killed someone for disobedience. He accepted to be king and then gave it away when support was already guaranteed.  His incompetence and lack of firm hand to do what is necessary lead to problems after problems. Real leaders have to make tough decisions.

Remember the red wedding? remember the burning by wildfire of the defeated soldiers by the lannisters? Tyrion regrets killing his father, what a joke. DD tells them something and they just defend it. This a plot is not. It is below a conventional children's story. Fan service everywhere, they have no ideas or spine.

 

Remember the plot that Jon is the real heir and the best ruler possible? They totally shat on that.

I disagree, i think it was a very good scene, and it was necessary for a part of the audience.
The "show don't tell" approach is a good approach but it's not always enough.
When Daenerys got mad, a lot of people told themselves and their surroundings exactly what Tyrion said in the last episode, but, there was also a chunk of the audience whou was not able to do it, a lot of people in denial who did not want to see the truth, so it had to be told.
The show showed us, and then he also told us because some do not want to see what has been shown to them.
The second Tyrion monologue however, about the choice of Bran is, in my opinion, a bit more problematic. The "Bran is a good choice because he has no personal ambition" part was okay, it had been shown and told, but the "Bran is a good choice because he is our collective memory" part was a little bit more clunky i think

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4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

So you are here to tell me what to think...

It had potential that doesn't mean they were fulfilled. For me for example placing Bran on the throne as a king says nothing about politics due to his nature. Neither I agree with the idea "the best king is the one who doesn't want to be king."    , because the real world doesn't work this way. Really it isn't. 

 

i said i wans not there to tell you if the show was well written or not, i have my opinion, i think yours is not the same, and i donnot want to force you to think like i do.
However, i think i can tell you that Game of Thrones is indeed a show about politics.
It's like we were shown a photography of, let's say.... Madonna. I will not tell you what to think about the artistic qualities of the photo, but if you say that the person on the picture is Arnold Schwarzenegger, i feel i have to tell you that it's not.

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4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

So you are here to tell me what to think...

It had potential that doesn't mean they were fulfilled. For me for example placing Bran on the throne as a king says nothing about politics due to his nature. Neither I agree with the idea "the best king is the one who doesn't want to be king."    , because the real world doesn't work this way. Really it isn't.

Even in the show, it doesn't work. Robert was a prime example of a King who was terrible for the realm because he had no interest in the role. I believe they even had Varys explicitly say this at one point.

I think people can see what they want in the show, but let's not pretend the showrunners weren't more interested in shock value than themes. They even infamously said "themes are for 8th grade book reports".

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

i said i wans not there to tell you if the show was well written or not, i have my opinion, i think yours is not the same, and i donnot want to force you to think like i do.
However, i think i can tell you that Game of Thrones is indeed a show about politics.
It's like we were shown a photography of, let's say.... Madonna. I will not tell you what to think about the artistic qualities of the photo, but if you say that the person on the picture is Arnold Schwarzenegger, i feel i have to tell you that it's not.

yes ok, I passed that point as you saw...

what more to say? it had potential but never made a true statement about it. A positive or realistic one. 

Quote

Even in the show, it doesn't work. Robert was a prime example of a King who was terrible for the realm because he had no interest in the role. I believe they even had Varys explicitly say this at one point.

Yes, this is a very good observation. 

Edited by Nightwish

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