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AlaerysTargaryen

My biggest issue with the finale is that they tried to make us feel guilty for supporting Daenerys' journey.

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17 minutes ago, kevinbgwrites said:

In that case I was specifically referring to not showing her perspective during the slaughter. I am the last person who will defend the last two seasons writing, but in my previous post I was saying I do think she was being beautifully built up as a tyrant beneath most oblivious viewers noses.

...

It is easy to see how she inevitably weld become something of a tyrant, though again this season has a plethora of problems, one of which is the transition into being full "Mad Queen".

Yes, they should have shown her perspective during the slaughter as well as the perspective of the innocents she killed. 
Because she lost a struggle, and we needed to see it. They could have shown her face first horrified at having made that decision, then more and more determined. Or something else. But it needed to be there.
Of course, in addition to the ground perspective.

But I strongly disagree that most viewers were oblivious. It's not about that. It's about whether or not the story had done what it took to deserve that turn. And they hadn't.

Like I said in a different post: Compare it with Oberyn. The story deserved to let him die because they showed how a character trait that seemed to be a strength, confidence, also became a weakness. They had not introduced a different character trait, alertness, to be an opposition to the first trait, and so, we did not ask "Why wasn't he more aware of the Mountain on the ground?"

They have introduced the character trait "warm" in Dany, in opposition to "ruthless". Then they want to show ruthless turning into cruel. And that setup just doesn't work.

Dany's change is not implausible, but in that moment it was improbable. But, like I've said before, they could have made it work.

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3 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Even in the show, it doesn't work. Robert was a prime example of a King who was terrible for the realm because he had no interest in the role. I believe they even had Varys explicitly say this at one point.

I think people can see what they want in the show, but let's not pretend the showrunners weren't more interested in shock value than themes. They even infamously said "themes are for 8th grade book reports".

not being interested in your job and not having personnal ambitions are two different things. The show imply that Bran and Tyrion will rule because it's their duty, but not because of personnal greed for power. Robert never ruled at all, he had that greed for power, he liked the idea of being the one on top, but did not care about what to do with it.

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17 minutes ago, madhikun said:

It's funny because I also thought she was Light Yagami, but the way he descended actually made sense. They showed him killing detectives off that were following him. He knew they were innocent, but to him their deaths were necessary. There was a logical and long series of events that led to his descent into madness. 

 

Death Note is a perfect example of this idea working, but again he didn't have the lame mad targ excuse. This show/series was just lazy. 

That's so true. Dany needs a Raye Penber. A person who is 100% innocent, but she still has a logical reason from her POV to kill him anyway, just to show us her warped form of a justice and how it doesn't work with anyone who isn't a slaver or overly evil like many of the characters she killed in Essos.

I hope GRRM gives to us.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

The "show don't tell" approach is a good approach but it's not always enough.
When Daenerys got mad, a lot of people told themselves and their surroundings exactly what Tyrion said in the last episode, but, there was also a chunk of the audience whou was not able to do it, a lot of people in denial who did not want to see the truth, so it had to be told.
The show showed us, and then he also told us because some do not want to see what has been shown to them.

I don't know, this sounds to me like exactly what good story tellers should try to avoid. 
Don't force morals down people's throats. It's not why we gathered to watch Game of Thrones. 

Edited by Vanadis

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1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

I don't know, this sounds to me like exactly what good story tellers should try to avoid. 
Don't force morals down people's throats. It's not why we gathered to watch Game of Thrones. We would have gone to church instead.

artists do whatever they want with their work, if they want to force their moral down your throat, that's their right. If you don't like it, don't watch it...
Art is not a democracy...

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2 minutes ago, sifth said:

That's so true. Dany needs a Raye Penber. A person who is 100% innocent, but she still has a logical reason from her POV to kill him anyway, just to show us her warped form of a justice and how it doesn't work with anyone who isn't a slaver or overly evil like many of the characters she killed in Essos.

I hope GRRM gives to us.

One of my favorite parts of Death Note was when Light had amnesia - and then regained his memories so the audience truly sees how warped he is by his face going from puppy-dog innocent to manipulative-evil. He changed into Kira over time, not with one simple blow out decision. Again, lazy writing and the directors needing a shock factor. 

 

What would have been cool was Dany to end like Kira did. 

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1 minute ago, beeeeeen said:

artists do whatever they want with their work, if they want to force their moral down your throat, that's their right. If you don't like it, don't watch it...
Art is not a democracy...

By all means, but hey, everybody's a critic ;)

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

But I strongly disagree that most viewers were oblivious. It's not about that. It's about whether or not the story had done what it took to deserve that turn. And they hadn't.

Even  in the Red Wedding Rob was what he was supposed to be and Frey was what he was supposed to be. 

Ned was what he was supposed to be and Joffrey was what he was supposed to be. 

Viseryon was what he was supposed to be and Khal Drogo was what he was supposed to be. 

Even Tywin's murder had a better set up with Tyrion reaching his patience and feeling betrayed. 

All of these surprises worked  fine though without demanding from the audience to make a 180 psychological twist and totally change their perception about the character. 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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21 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Yes, they should have shown her perspective during the slaughter as well as the perspective of the innocents she killed. 
Because she lost a struggle, and we needed to see it. They could have shown her face first horrified at having made that decision, then more and more determined. Or something else. But it needed to be there.
Of course, in addition to the ground perspective.

But I strongly disagree that most viewers were oblivious. It's not about that. It's about whether or not the story had done what it took to deserve that turn. And they hadn't.

Yeah no I really strongly disagree. It would have been extremely jarring to see cuts to her face in that instance, it was easily one of their best decisions in that episode, granted that list isn't long.

And from facebook and various social media I do think most were totally oblivious- Not at all coming across as "why did they make her change so abrupt" but rather "I cant believe Dany is a villain in general".

Again I certainly agree it needed more time and that the last two seasons needed more episodes and countless rewrites, I am just not upset that people who were supporting Dany were made to feel guilty because supporting someone who views it as their destiny to be a conqueror, has a messiah complex, and the Westerosi equivalent of nukes is going to end badly in any story that goes in a remotely believable direction. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

They have introduced the character trait "warm" in Dany, in opposition to "ruthless". Then they want to show ruthless turning into cruel. And that setup just doesn't work.

Dany's change is not implausible, but in that moment it was improbable. But, like I've said before, they could have made it work.

Only because you see her through the prism of a noble and righteous liberator.  But every action she took since marrying Drogo conveniently improved her personal position and power.  She didn't liberate Qarth, she demanded an audience because she believed she was special.  She "stole" the Unsullied in Astapor and liberated the slaves, but she also left with an army she didn't have before.  She sacked Yunkai and was worshiped as a God for liberating them, which spread the legacy of her destiny.  She crucified and burned nobles in Mereen, to "free slaves", but she conveniently stayed to rule and impose her version of justice on a culture and society she was never a part of.

She then turned to Westeros where she claimed the Throne by virtue of her father, ignoring that her father was the horrible tyrant she claimed to despise.  She burned thousands of soldiers, before turning North to deal with the Night King.  Sure, she said she did it because she loved Jon, but the Night King had also killed one of her "children."  Should we really champion her because when faced with an army of unstoppable undead monsters, she chose to use her dragons to stop them from killing every living person in the world?  Immediately after the battle her thoughts were on how Jon was getting the credit and love, and not her.

She says she's doing these things for morally right reasons until the very end when Job stabs her in her heart.  But isn't it entirely possible if not probable, her actions throughout the series were equally based on her desire for ultimate power and the claims of liberation were just her rationalizing behavior we'd condemn anyone else for in this universe.  

Unless you think Arya massacring the Freys was the "right" thing to do.  In that case your moral compass is completely broken and there's no point in trying to convince others otherwise.     

Edited by WalkinDude

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12 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

By all means, but hey, everybody's a critic ;)

yes, that's why i told Nightwish that i was not here to tell him what to think about the quality of the show. I have my opinion, i will defend it, but everyone is entitled to have an opinion.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recent EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

Jon and dany left their characters. Jon became a confused little weak boy lap dog without firm convictions that didnt know what was right and dany despite all warnings became the tyrant she despised. Tyrants rule from fear alone. They butchered these two characters.

Edited by Jon and Dany Targaryen

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22 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recent EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

I very much agree with OP.

This was D&D trying to excuse their lack of skill in writing and properly setting up the scene. The quote from Tyrion is pretty much exactly what they said in the Inside the episode for ep. 5.

While I think it's narratively lazy and generally disgusting what they did in that scene I would also argue that it's borderline offensive.

They just tried to tell us that Dany, a character who ended slavery was already evil back in Essos and we were wrong to cheer for her. What?

I mean... I'm a white gal from Europe, but they do have tons of viewers of various ethnic backgrounds. I don't imagine the descendants of former slaves would be inclined to agree with D&D's "philosophy" and moral of this entire arc. Especially since Dany is by no means the only character in this story to have killed her enemies (Tyrion and Jon included).

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Even  in the Red Wedding Rob was what he was supposed to be and Frey was what he was supposed to be. 

Ned was what he was supposed to be and Joffrey was what he was supposed to be. 

Viseryon was what he was supposed to be and Khal Drogo was what he was supposed to be. 

Even Tywin's murder had a better set up with Tyrion reaching his patience and feeling betrayed. 

All of these surprises worked  fine though without demanding from the audience to make a 180 psychological twist and totally change their perception about the character. 

 

you see that's where i 50% agree with you, and also, obviously 50% disagree with you.
You think that Ned's beheading, the Red wedding, Oberyn's death were well received because unlike Daenerys turning mad, it was consistent with the characters involved (Joffrey being evil, Tywin being ruthless and Clegane being brutal).
I see it a bit differently. To me, the "problem" with Daenerys turning mad isn't that it was not consistent with her character, it was, the "problem" is that it was not consistent with what some peoples thought her character was. And they don't like it, because the show is basically laughing at them, telling them "you see, you are poor at judging peoples"
I understand that it rubs peoples in the wrong way, but that's exactly what i like, because in the end, i feel like i have learned something.

Some people don't like to learn, they just like to hear the already know enough...

Edited by beeeeeen

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14 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Only because you see her through the prism of a noble and righteous liberator.  But every action she took since marrying Drogo conveniently improved her personal position and power.  She didn't liberate Qarth, she demanded an audience because she believed she was special.  She "stole" the Unsullied in Astapor and liberated the slaves, but she also left with an army she didn't have before.  She sacked Yunkai and was worshiped as a God for liberating them, which spread the legacy of her destiny.  She crucified and burned nobles in Mereen, to "free slaves", but she conveniently stayed to rule and impose her version of justice on a culture and society she was never a part of.

She then turned to Westeros where she claimed the Throne by virtue of her father, ignoring that her father was the horrible tyrant she claimed to despise.  She burned thousands of soldiers, before turning North to deal with the Night King.  Sure, she said she did it because she loved Jon, but the Night King had also killed one of her "children."  Should we really champion her because when faced with an army of unstoppable undead monsters, she chose to use her dragons to stop them from killing every living person in the world?  Immediately after the battle her thoughts were on how Jon was getting the credit and love, and not her.

She says she's doing these things for morally right reasons until the very end when Job stabs her in her heart.  But isn't it entirely possible if not probable, her actions throughout the series were equally based on her desire for ultimate power and the claims of liberation were just her rationalizing behavior we'd condemn anyone else for in this universe.  

Unless you think Arya massacring the Freys was the "right" thing to do.  In that case your moral compass is completely broken and there's no point in trying to convince others otherwise.     

All this tells me is that some people are unable to see Dany's warmth. I guess the show didn't get across that point about her character across very well, then. They seem to have failed in portraying her as a complex, believable person to some people, as opposed to a standard fantasy villain. But, they did so many mistakes, so this is not a surprise. 

 

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I believe this is pure Martin, and is almost the core theme of the Story.

He wants us to feel bad that we supported the things the hero was doing, because of who it was being done to.  He wants to show that people who do these things to people they hate, do not stop doing them when all the people they hate are gone, they just find new people to hate.

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1 minute ago, Vanadis said:

All this tells me is that some people are unable to see Dany's warmth. I guess the show didn't get across that point about her character across very well, then. They seem to have failed in portraying her as a complex, believable person to some people, as opposed to a standard fantasy villain. But, they did so many mistakes, so this is not a surprise. 

 

we see Daenerys' warmth, you know, many of the people who are now saying that we should have seen it coming, me included (and also Tyrion) were cheering for her all this time. This discussion is not "pro Dany" vs "anti Dany", this discussion is between those who admit they did not see what was in front of them the whole time, and those who think that since they are above being wrong, then the show is the one who is wrong.

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1 minute ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

I believe this is pure Martin, and is almost the core theme of the Story.

He wants us to feel bad that we supported the things the hero was doing, because of who it was being done to.  He wants to show that people who do these things to people they hate, do not stop doing them when all the people they hate are gone, they just find new people to hate.

Bingo!  And people don't want to acknowledge they cheered on someone who crucified 162 people, some of which we were told in plain english were good folks and advocated against slavery.  Dany told us she was awesome and good, and a lot of people don't want to acknowledge they cheered on a very dangerous person for 8 seasons.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

you see that's where i 50% agree with you, and also, obviously 50% disagree with you.
You think that Ned's beheading, the Red wedding, Oberyn's death were well received because unlike Daenerys turning mad, it was consistent with the characters involved (Joffrey being evil, Tywin being ruthless and Clegane being brutal).
I see it a bit differently. To me, the "problem" with Daenerys turning mad isn't that it was not consistent with her character, it was, the "problem" is that it was not consistent with what some peoples thought her character was. And they don't like it, because the show is basically laughing at them, telling them "you see, you are poor at judging peoples"
I understand that it rubs peoples in the wrong way, but that's exactly what i like, because in the end, i feel like i have learned something.

Some people don't like to learn, they just like to hear the already know enough...

And I think you are mistaken, if I may be so bold. 

I think those people who point out that this is not consistent with all her traits, are correct, and that those like you who say the show proved that they were wrong all along, are wrong.

All the show proved was that they stopped caring about who characters are and forced the plot forward, whether it made sense or not.

It saddens me that people use this ending to say "I told you so" to Dany supporters, and I wasn't even a big Dany supporter.

(But I like to think I "support" all the characters.)

Edited by Vanadis

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2 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

we see Daenerys' warmth, you know, many of the people who are now saying that we should have seen it coming, me included (and also Tyrion) were cheering for her all this time. This discussion is not "pro Dany" vs "anti Dany", this discussion is between those who admit they did not see what was in front of them the whole time, and those who think that since they are above being wrong, then the show is the one who is wrong.

Well, my argument is that at some point they moved from a character orientated story to plot oriented story, and that the characters (not just Dany) became bleak shadows of themselves in the process.

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