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hallam

The heartless subtext thread...

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I am mighty pleased by the ending of GoT. Danny got the comeuppance she deserved and Jon was reappointed Lord Commander of the Knight's Watch on the Peter principle of rising to the exact level of his incompetence. But there is much more to the last episode than meets the eye:

Drogon is basically a dinosaur which means he has the brain of a pigeon and he has basically flown off to find somewhere to turn into oil.

Jon basically mansplains Dannerys and stabs her after she calls him on it.

Someone must have spent the past two weeks doing some panicked CGI to add Ghost to the last episode despite the cost because you all whined so much. Servicey!

Folk complaining because the show didn't explain the ending of the sub plots not even mentioned in the show need to have a hard think.

Ask not how Sam Tarly came by his Maester's chain or if Gilly will be OK with the requisite vow of chastity, he is also AWOL from the Nights Watch (if there is one).

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5 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am mighty pleased by the ending of GoT. Danny got the comeuppance she deserved and Jon was reappointed Lord Commander of the Knight's Watch on the Peter principle of rising to the exact level of his incompetence. But there is much more to the last episode than meets the eye:

Drogon is basically a dinosaur which means he has the brain of a pigeon and he has basically flown off to find somewhere to turn into oil.

Jon basically mansplains Dannerys and stabs her after she calls him on it.

Someone must have spent the past two weeks doing some panicked CGI to add Ghost to the last episode despite the cost because you all whined so much. Servicey!

Folk complaining because the show didn't explain the ending of the sub plots not even mentioned in the show need to have a hard think.

Ask not how Sam Tarly came by his Maester's chain or if Gilly will be OK with the requisite vow of chastity, he is also AWOL from the Nights Watch (if there is one).

I assumed sending Jon to the Nights Watch, which no longer exists, was just a technical way to tell him he needed to get out of dodge or be executed. Hence, why he seems to have gotten there, met up with Tormund and then immediately left with the remaining Free Folk. 

The Sam thing is absurd. He’s not qualified to be a maester, much less grandmaester. I get that he’s smart, but some stolen books from the citadel does not a maester make. 

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1 minute ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I assumed sending Jon to the Nights Watch, which no longer exists, was just a technical way to tell him he needed to get out of dodge or be executed. Hence, why he seems to have gotten there, met up with Tormund and then immediately left with the remaining Free Folk. 

The Sam thing is absurd. He’s not qualified to be a maester, much less grandmaester. I get that he’s smart, but some stolen books from the citadel does not a maester make. 

He did tell Jon about the dragonglass that makes him a maester at least. 

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

Drogon is basically a dinosaur which means he has the brain of a pigeon and he has basically flown off to find somewhere to turn into oil.

Many stories and legends show dragons as intelligent creatures. In some stories they can even speak. So they're more than simple dinosaurs.

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10 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

The Sam thing is absurd. He’s not qualified to be a maester, much less grandmaester. I get that he’s smart, but some stolen books from the citadel does not a maester make. 

It's possible that Bran requested Sam be Grandmaester.  So the Citadel obliged, maybe making Sam an honorary Maester.  Sam only has one or 2 links in his chain.

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10 hours ago, hallam said:

Ask not how Sam Tarly came by his Maester's chain or if Gilly will be OK with the requisite vow of chastity, he is also AWOL from the Nights Watch (if there is one).

By a royal request, no doubt.  Pycelle didn't abide by a chastity vow, and Sam has shown a willingness to bend the rules.  NW may also be a royal request.  Or a disbanding of the old Night's Watch.

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It seems that the title Grandmaester is effectively in the hands of the King. It is traditional for it to go to a highly accomplished Maester of the citadel but he can nominate anyone he chooses.

Since Bran knows everything in time... his need of an actual maester is somewhat different.

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:30 AM, hallam said:

One thing is certain, Jon is going to find it real hard finding a third date after what happened to his first two.

Ooh, I dunno... the Freefolk might be well impressed that he stabbed a Queen... they're not into Queens or Kings... it'd maybe get him brownie points with the chicks, along with tales of bareback dragon riding.
I mean.... if boasting about sucking on a Giants titty works for Tormund, i guess desirability is measured a bit different up North.  :D

 

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On 5/20/2019 at 11:03 AM, hallam said:

<snip>Someone must have spent the past two weeks doing some panicked CGI to add Ghost to the last episode despite the cost because you all whined so much. Servicey! <snip>

I know they film most of this stuff years in advance, but it IS a TV show, they can easily make a change at the very end, and the Ghost scene felt more like that than may easily be expressed. It was a brief 5-second shot, Ghost against a simple background, a simple greeting, a short little pet.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:35 AM, Tywin Tytosson said:

It's possible that Bran requested Sam be Grandmaester.  So the Citadel obliged, maybe making Sam an honorary Maester.  Sam only has one or 2 links in his chain.

King's don't have that much sway in the citadel. It is unlikely that Sam would even be accepted as an apprentice after the impression he made, also stealing books.

It is also very likely that the citadel would be antagonistic towards Bran. He is a magical telepath, seer, and Warg. The citadel is full of men of a science who stilll view such things as superstition. I'm sure they would want one of their own to keep an eye on Bran. 

But again, all subtlety and consistency is thrown to the wind for the show. Sam deserves it because he is written as a good character, devoid of any depth or conflict. Of course he should be Grand Maester, he's familiar. I recognize him. I like him. Give him a job. Turn off your brain and smile. Happy endings! 

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7 minutes ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

King's don't have that much sway in the citadel. It is unlikely that Sam would even be accepted as an apprentice after the impression he made, also stealing books.

Sorry, but you know this how?  :)

Sam asked Dany for a Royal Pardon re. the 'borrowed' books.  So the monarchy must have some sway.

 

7 minutes ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

It is also very likely that the citadel would be antagonistic towards Bran. He is a magical telepath, seer, and Warg. The citadel is full of men of a science who stilll view such things as superstition. I'm sure they would want one of their own to keep an eye on Bran. 

This I would expect as well.  The citadel can assign some assistants to Sam to do this, though.

Or ... one could argue that the show!Citadel would just discount any such abilities in Bran and not be bothered by them.

 

7 minutes ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

But again, all subtlety and consistency is thrown to the wind for the show. Sam deserves it because he is written as a good character, devoid of any depth or conflict. Of course he should be Grand Maester, he's familiar. I recognize him. I like him. Give him a job. Turn off your brain and smile. Happy endings! 

If you insist!   :)  Things do go easier.   But I don't have to turn off my brain to accept this.

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Sam has The Citadel by the balls. He has all the inside dirt on how they almost left the apocalypse happen through institutionalized ignorance. Under the circumstances a rapid promotion in recognition of Sam's outstanding dedication to the furtherance of education and knowledge seems reasonable. 

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Agree. Between Sam and Bran they have enough dirt on the old Archmaesters to make them drop any late return charges on the books from the library and to argue Sam got a very rapid education with practical experiments (I mean medical: Curing Mormont's Greyscale. Magic: Dragonglass. History: Finding Jon's parentage...).

 

Plus they were wrong, he was right, and how many divisions do the Maesters have? ;)

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2 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Agree. Between Sam and Bran they have enough dirt on the old Archmaesters to make them drop any late return charges on the books from the library and to argue Sam got a very rapid education with practical experiments (I mean medical: Curing Mormont's Greyscale. Magic: Dragonglass. History: Finding Jon's parentage...).

 

Plus they were wrong, he was right, and how many divisions do the Maesters have? ;)

Agreed. It is unlikely that the Citadel has any power at all by the end of the series. 

It seems unlikely that the Maesters would be happy with how things played out. They seemed very culturally conservative, and strict in their adherence to custom. My money would be on them plotting against Bran. 

Also, there is no undeniable proof that the Army of the Dead ever existed, that Jon was a Targ, and that Dragonglass did anything. Only the word of people who were there. A successful disinformation campaign could turn that on its head.

It would have been nice to consider these elements and show how these characters positions are not firmly cemented, but actually rather precarious.

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On 5/20/2019 at 8:03 PM, hallam said:

Drogon is basically a dinosaur which means he has the brain of a pigeon and he has basically flown off to find somewhere to turn into oil.

You didn't pay attention. Tyrions once explained to Missandei that dragons are intelligent creatures, "more than some men, according to some maesters."

On 5/20/2019 at 8:03 PM, hallam said:

 Jon basically mansplains Dannerys and stabs her after she calls him on it.

Have you seen the same show? This is just utter nonsense. 

On 5/20/2019 at 8:03 PM, hallam said:

 Someone must have spent the past two weeks doing some panicked CGI to add Ghost to the last episode despite the cost because you all whined so much. Servicey!

You are obviously not serious. Why waste our time with such sentences?

On 5/20/2019 at 8:03 PM, hallam said:

Ask not how Sam Tarly came by his Maester's chain or if Gilly will be OK with the requisite vow of chastity, he is also AWOL from the Nights Watch (if there is one).

Sam Tarly obviously visited Oldtown and helped finishing this book. He was awarded the maestery for his important contributions of resolving the Great War. The position of Grand Maester is just by royal decree, not to be mistaken for the title of Arch Maester in Oldtown. Sams chain has only few links yet, that is reasonable.

Vows of chastity and his partnership with Gilly are unresolved in the show, but I guess they just exempted him from it. This even happens under certain circumstances to Catholic priests (if they have children before becoming priest by conversion). Everything's possible if the King wants it.

The Night's Watch was terminated before the Great War. Even if they re-institute it this doesn't mean that Sam is AWOL. He was sent to Oldtown to become maester anyway quite officially by Jon as Lord Commander. 

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9 hours ago, Jaime the Goldenhand said:

Agreed. It is unlikely that the Citadel has any power at all by the end of the series. 

It seems unlikely that the Maesters would be happy with how things played out. They seemed very culturally conservative, and strict in their adherence to custom. My money would be on them plotting against Bran. 

Also, there is no undeniable proof that the Army of the Dead ever existed, that Jon was a Targ, and that Dragonglass did anything. Only the word of people who were there. A successful disinformation campaign could turn that on its head.

It would have been nice to consider these elements and show how these characters positions are not firmly cemented, but actually rather precarious.

One prediction that looks pretty good for the books is that we find out much more about OldTown and the citadel. 

Another is that there will always be two more books to come.

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