Bittersweet?

[Areisius]

Bittersweet. 

[Daemos]

31 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys is his family too.

She was more than that. She could've been his everything, and I believe given time and luck, she could've accepted him as her everything. But it was not in the self interest of a lot of characters for these two to be happy together and resuscitate the Targaryen superpower.

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, Higgins86 said:

I may be in the minority but I don't think they actually exiled him. I think they knew where Jon would be happiest and who was actually waiting for him at Castle Black.  I don't think its was expected by Bran that Jon would serve out his days as a man of the nights watch.

I think so, too. They built a bridge to him to walk over and to seek a life in the North where he has friends like Tormund, and his direwolf Ghost.

I believe that Jon will find peace and happiness there, but of course what he did will follow his soul anyway. Jon always was a burden to himself.

[ummester]

Just about everyone failed at what they tried to achieve and learned or achieved some new ideal in the process.

Jamie failed to redeem himself in life and was redeemed posthumously.

Brienne failed to find love in life but gave the man she loved an honorable epitaph.

Jon failed to remain honorable in life but sacrificed his honor to save the world from an entitled idealist that he loved. (He never learned how not to brood though).

Dany failed to break the wheel in life but got it spinning differently posthumously.

Tyrion failed to be a truly effective hand but learned that it is better to keep trying to do what fulfills you than always succeed at it.

Varys failed to find a worthwhile monarch in service of his realm but sacrificed himself for the same ideal which effected Tyrion posthumously.

Sansa failed to get her prince charming but learned she would rather be a Queen.

Arya - well fuck Arya, they broke her story. I think it was supposed to be something like Arya gave up adventure for vengeance but managed to escape that path before it destroyed her and reclaim her life of adventure.

Ned's legacy of honor prevailed.

The Targ legacy of self righteous fire and blood was destroyed, along with the throne - so in a way Robert got what he fought for posthumously.

Greyworm lost Missandie and his queen but the unsullied were free to defend a greater ideal - the peace of Narth (might all get killed by butterflies though).

The realm was was destroyed to give way to some structural changes for its rebirth.

 

Just so everyone is clear, I am not defending D&Ds writing, it was absolute crapola - but the semblance of a bittersweet plot with some bittersweet arcs still shone through. The Star Wars prequels are crapola - but this scene has some emotional weight. Imagine this was all you knew of Anikan's fall to the dark side, without the silly dialogue and it would be quite dramatic

The show of GoTs, in the last 4 seasons,  is like that - very visual storytelling. The dialogue and plotting is so crappy it actually detracts from the greater story sometimes. The first 4 seasons is very dialogue driven. It's a bizarre contrast - but I think you can trace a consistent bittersweet narrative across the 2 halves.

[Kajjo]

11 minutes ago, ummester said:

Just about everyone failed at what they tried to achieve and learned or achieved some new ideal in the process.

Yes, I like you interpretation.

11 minutes ago, ummester said:

Arya - well fuck Arya, they broke her story. I think it was supposed to be something like Arya gave up adventure for vengeance but managed to escape that path before it destroyed her and reclaim her life of adventure.

Well, the Sandor/Arya moment was her turning point and she leaves the path of vengeance and turns to adventure, something she always wanted. It's a great arc. Why don't you like it?

[ummester]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I like you interpretation.

That is what bittersweet is supposed to be. It's almost like a positive twist ending, or ideals rising like a phoenix from the ashes of tragedy. GoTs definately had that.

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, the Sandor/Arya moment was her turning point and she leaves the path of vengeance and turns to adventure, something she always wanted. It's a great arc. Why don't you like it?

I don't like that they stuffed up Arya's fall into vengeance in Bravos. She was obviously supposed to give up her identity entirely, not get told she was no-one for being Arya Stark. I don't mind what they did with her in the last 2 episodes.

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, ummester said:

She was obviously supposed to give up her identity entirely, not get told she was no-one for being Arya Stark.

I see your point there, but she never turned into no-one, not in the show. So it made enough sense for me. I still believe Ja'qen Hagar somehow knew she was important and let her go. 

4 minutes ago, ummester said:

I don't mind what they did with her in the last 2 episodes.

Fine, then. 

[TwiceBorn]

What bothers me is not Jon’s ending which I liked it was the rest that makes no sense.

Independent North - for how long? Sansa needs an heir. So she needs king consort. Power struggle is inevitable. And what if she dies without heir? Claim returns to Bran - so much for independence.

Iron Islands, Dorne - don’t they want to be independent too? Weird.

Who will be the king after Bran the Creepy? Sansa’s future child? Sweet Robin? Gendry?! Not many options left.

Is Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock? If so: shouldn’t he produce a heir? Who will he marry?

And that creep Bran... was he supposed to be positive character? Because now I feel he planned for this all along and he gives me shivers worse than the Night King.

 

 

[Kajjo]

Just now, TwiceBorn said:

Independent North - for how long? Sansa needs an heir. So she needs king consort. Power struggle is inevitable. And what if she dies without heir? Claim returns to Bran - so much for independence.

Sansa is 20 years old now. It is not that a stretch to imagine that she finally comes to terms with her hardships and falls in love with a man. She is only 20. She has so many years to find a spouse and to cope with her past. I have no trouble at all to imagine that. She will have heirs. 

She's no little bird anymore, she is mature and tough now. She will manage her life. It might need some years, but she has more than enough.

3 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

 Who will be the king after Bran the Creepy? Sansa’s future child? Sweet Robin? Gendry?! Not many options left.

Uncountable options left. Bran is 17 now, he will reign for 30-50 years, maybe a three-eyed raven lives even much longer.

None of the members of the election council has any chance to be successor, but their children or grandchildren have. Some houses will rise, some will fall, the next council might be smaller or bigger. Whatever. Each house will have the option to apply and be elected.

[Hodor the Articulate]

For some characters, it was pretty sweet. Sansa got to be Queen, Arya didn't get stuck being a lady, Tyrion is pretty much running Westeros, Bronn got his land and gold...

I guess the "bittersweet" was Jon? But I can't find it in me to feel anything for him. Boohoo! He just had to stab his psycho girlfriend. Oh, what a terrible life he has to live now, responsibility-free and roaming the North with his cool bros and his doggo. Screw you, Jon! You don't deserve that Good Boi anymore after abandoning him like that.

17 hours ago, Knugen said:

Why not? Tyrion killed his father and got charged Guilty of killing Jofferey and he is walking around like nothing happen.. And that's worse than what Jon did.

Not just walking around, but he gets to be Hand!

[Jen'ari]

2 hours ago, ummester said:

Just about everyone failed at what they tried to achieve and learned or achieved some new ideal in the process.

Jamie failed to redeem himself in life and was redeemed posthumously.

Brienne failed to find love in life but gave the man she loved an honorable epitaph.

Jon failed to remain honorable in life but sacrificed his honor to save the world from an entitled idealist that he loved. (He never learned how not to brood though).

Dany failed to break the wheel in life but got it spinning differently posthumously.

Tyrion failed to be a truly effective hand but learned that it is better to keep trying to do what fulfills you than always succeed at it.

Varys failed to find a worthwhile monarch in service of his realm but sacrificed himself for the same ideal which effected Tyrion posthumously.

Sansa failed to get her prince charming but learned she would rather be a Queen.

Arya - well fuck Arya, they broke her story. I think it was supposed to be something like Arya gave up adventure for vengeance but managed to escape that path before it destroyed her and reclaim her life of adventure.

Ned's legacy of honor prevailed.

The Targ legacy of self righteous fire and blood was destroyed, along with the throne - so in a way Robert got what he fought for posthumously.

Greyworm lost Missandie and his queen but the unsullied were free to defend a greater ideal - the peace of Narth (might all get killed by butterflies though).

The realm was was destroyed to give way to some structural changes for its rebirth.

 

Just so everyone is clear, I am not defending D&Ds writing, it was absolute crapola - but the semblance of a bittersweet plot with some bittersweet arcs still shone through. The Star Wars prequels are crapola - but this scene has some emotional weight. Imagine this was all you knew of Anikan's fall to the dark side, without the silly dialogue and it would be quite dramatic

The show of GoTs, in the last 4 seasons,  is like that - very visual storytelling. The dialogue and plotting is so crappy it actually detracts from the greater story sometimes. The first 4 seasons is very dialogue driven. It's a bizarre contrast - but I think you can trace a consistent bittersweet narrative across the 2 halves.

Episode 3 isn’t bad overall, just rushed, it had some of the best and most important parts of the whole saga in it-Order 66, the formation of the Galactic Empire which bought about years of prosperity under Sith rule.

Season 8 Episode 6 was probably as badly written as Episode 2 of SW was!.

[Dorotea]

More like bitter-sour, really. What is actually pretty hilarious about the whole thing is that the Westerous is being left being ruled by a barren king that can have no offspring, and *every* character of importance besides Sam has ended with no surviving or hinted at love interest. Yes I know they tried to kill all possible hints of that 'trope' so yup, no marriages, happy or unhappy, no children either. I guess House Frey taught us all that excessive fertility, too many children is evil. The North goes on, also with unmarried resentful Queen, scarred for life, without sufficient sources of food and no way of surviving those winters without grain from the Reach. But surely building more brothels will fix things.

[Dragonslack]

Bitter: the plot

Sweet: finally over the plot; tits; dragon

 

From their point of view it is not bitter at all. Ham-fisted evil and crazy dies. Goody that does not want to be king goes to where he is happy. All the heroes of GOT, the stark children get all they could want (adventure, independent queen, king).

Threats all just go away peacefully never to be heard again magically. No civil war for the throne, no genocide as vengeance after the war, etc.

Pet imp gets to be hand of yet another king (as punishment! as seen a million times elsewhere).

Beast warrior girl get to bed the handsomest guy in westeros and be a knight and gets a vote on the new king, and leader of the king's guard.

Even the idiot Edmore gets to be leader.

Even people come back from the dead in droves to repopulate the land. 

[BlackLightning]

23 hours ago, Daemos said:

She was more than that. She could've been his everything, and I believe given time and luck, she could've accepted him as her everything. But it was not in the self interest of a lot of characters for these two to be happy together and resuscitate the Targaryen superpower.

I agree 100%

Daenerys was already willing to accept Jon as his everything

I think Daenerys' death in the books is going to have more to do with one of these two things or a combination of both.

1. People having a negative reaction to Euron's reign of terror, the presence of red priests, the outing of skinchangers, different types of zombies, the encounters with the Otheres and thinking -- perhaps falsely -- that Daenerys and her magical-ness is going to take them in a direction they don't want to g. Likely, when all this is taken care of, the people of Westeros are likely to say "no more magic please." And that's the best case scenario. t worst, they'll be afraid that she'll be just as bad if not worse than the rest of them. We are already seeing this in regards to the anti-magic conspiracy that is beginning to unfold in the Samwell POV at the Citadel.
2. People having a positive reaction to all of this magic amidst the horror and wanting to use said magic for their own petty, selfish ambitions or to invent and pioneer things that will ultimately destroy society (e.g. Valryia). They will want to use and exploit Daenerys and then toss her aside and scapegoat her when they are done using her. We are also seeing this in not only Arya's POV in Feast and the POVs of Tyrion, Victarion and Quentyn in Dance. Quaithe has also been warning Daenerys about this ever since A Clash of Kings. 

In any case, Daenerys is likely to be so blinded by her desire for a better world and her super-green dreams that she won't know that she is in terrible danger.

If Jon kills her, it'll truly be not only a mercy but it will be done out of love. Real love.

Daenerys is going to flirt with the dark side in Winds (unavoidable if she wants to survive the Dothraki without joining the Dosh Khaleen) but she'll come back around and try to do good and work towards a better future -- probably to her detriment -- in Dream.

I think D&D turned her into a fascistic Robespierre because they are hacks who procrastinated and didn't bother to take the time to understand the character and themes.

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

Episode 3 isn’t bad overall, just rushed, it had some of the best and most important parts of the whole saga in it-Order 66, the formation of the Galactic Empire which bought about years of prosperity under Sith rule.

Season 8 Episode 6 was probably as badly written as Episode 2 of SW was!.

Episode 3 of Star Wars is great.

While yes, Revenge of the Sith should have been longer so as to better see the flawed mechanics of the Jedi Order (why did it not work), the nature of the Force and why the Sith are the Sith, it's best to watch Episodes 2 and 3 of Star Wars back-to-back.

Episode 2 of Star Wars still was a lot better than season 8 of Game of Thrones.

[Tyrion1991]

On 5/20/2019 at 8:53 PM, shawnpmcd said:

I didn't find it to be too bittersweet, and I was a fan of it.

 

Now what WOULD have been bittersweet was if Dany's last words to Jon were "I'm pregnant".

 

Its bittersweet for the Starks. For Dany it’s intended to be a downfall and tragedy.