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martianmister

No one really cares about KL massacre

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Truth is, whole King's Landing tragedy isn't a world-shattering event to our heroes as most viewers assumed. We already see Jon and Tyrion's faces, it was something bad for them but nothing world shattering. Tyrion was more interested in his siblings' well-being and only rebelled against her after finding his siblings' dead bodies. Jon and Davos proclaimed "we won, war is over," they wanted to look forward. Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom. Even Arya was not that affected by it. 

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Posted (edited)

Of course they care, otherwise Yara and Dorne wouldn't go along with sending Jon to the Night's Watch, as Sansa said their argument was ''Jon killed a Tyrant'', otherwise they had no argument there to defend Jon for killing their Queen. Perhaps Unsullied agreed with that for that reason only.

As for Jon and Tyrion, that's the only reason why they killed their Queen, as Tyrion says Dany killed more people in one day than all the people that Tywin and Cersei killed.

 

Edited by Erkan12

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22 hours ago, martianmister said:

Truth is, whole King's Landing tragedy isn't a world-shattering event to our heroes as most viewers assumed. We already see Jon and Tyrion's faces, it was something bad for them but nothing world shattering. Tyrion was more interested in his siblings' well-being and only rebelled against her after finding his siblings' dead bodies. Jon and Davos proclaimed "we won, war is over," they wanted to look forward. Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom. Even Arya was not that affected by it. 

I thought it would have shocked Arya into doing something in the long term but no. She runs away.

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23 hours ago, martianmister said:

Truth is, whole King's Landing tragedy isn't a world-shattering event to our heroes as most viewers assumed. We already see Jon and Tyrion's faces, it was something bad for them but nothing world shattering. Tyrion was more interested in his siblings' well-being and only rebelled against her after finding his siblings' dead bodies. Jon and Davos proclaimed "we won, war is over," they wanted to look forward. Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom. Even Arya was not that affected by it. 

Arya was affected by it. Before that she was an assassin, mostly interested in her need for revenge. Walking through the city seeing the collateral damage of Dany's need for revenge makes her let go of this, she's able to turn away from perusing Cersei and actively tries to help people flee. She regains her humanity.

Jon too seems to be affected by it, similar to the effect Robert's Rebellion had on his 'father' Ned, Jon wants nothing more than to return to his home (the Wall) and stay away from the memories of war.

I agree about Tyrion, his betrayal of Dany had been building since the Tarly's, it was always going to happen regardless of Dany's destruction of Kings Landing. Him rejecting being her Hand was nothing more than him jumping before he was about to be pushed, making a big scene like he did at his trial. Its simply part of his character. The destruction of Kings Landing did not affect him, maybe because he'd seen it on a much smaller scale at the Battle of Blackwater or more likely because he's always been a pretty selfish character with little empathy for anyone but himself and other misfits he identifies with. He enjoys the 'game', I think its actually in his character to move on quite quickly from this tragedy.

Davos is the strangest one. You'd think the war being over, the loss of his children, the amount of carnage he'd seen first hand in the years he'd want nothing more to be done with a political life and he'd fundamentally be changed as a person, actually be with what remains of the family he's not seen in 6/7 years. Davos' is unchanged from series 2.  If anything he's more jovial.

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23 hours ago, martianmister said:

Truth is, whole King's Landing tragedy isn't a world-shattering event to our heroes as most viewers assumed. We already see Jon and Tyrion's faces, it was something bad for them but nothing world shattering. Tyrion was more interested in his siblings' well-being and only rebelled against her after finding his siblings' dead bodies. Jon and Davos proclaimed "we won, war is over," they wanted to look forward. Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom. Even Arya was not that affected by it. 

 

People in glass houses don’t throw stones. It’s very telling that they accuse Dany of being a tyrant and then compare the smallfolk to dogs in the same conversation. They are by definition tyrants living off the backs of the smallfolk who till the land. 

Plus, the sacking of cities should be common practice. Once a cities gates fell it was fair game and woe to the vanquished. Their objection is that Dany was too good and quick at it. Or, the show now exists in a parallel universe where nobody has ever sacked a city and it’s against the rules of war.

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Tyrion wanted Dany dead to save his own life as usual. Varys just wanted to be on the winning side as usual. And Jon is an idiot.

The lies these people tell themselves and others, when their only concern has always been themselves. 

Dany has sacrificed everything for her cause and those she loved. 

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3 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

 

As for Jon and Tyrion, that's the only reason why they killed their Queen, as Tyrion says Dany killed more people than all Tywin's and Cersei's kills combined in one day.

 

To be fair it isn't really clear how many of the people that died in KL were killed by Dany and how many were killed by the Wildfire Cersei had planted around the city.  It seems like they edited out any scenes mentioning it but Wildfire explosions are seen and heard clear as day while KL burned so clearly Cersei was planning to burn the city regardless of anything Dany did. 

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Even if the remaining main characters and great lords don't care about the human cost, the trading center of Westeros and one of the great economic centers of the world was wiped out in about 40 minutes time. That's worse than a normal city sacking. They'd care deeply about the economic ramifications for sure.

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4 hours ago, martianmister said:

I've been thinking about it and now I'm sure they're just hypocrites.

I realized this at the end of episode 1 but I'm glad you came to your senses.

4 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

Of course they care, otherwise Yara and Dorne wouldn't go along with sending Jon to the Night's Watch, as Sansa said their argument was ''Jon killed a Tyrant'', otherwise they had no argument there to defend Jon for killing their Queen. Perhaps Unsullied agreed with that for that reason only.

As for Jon and Tyrion, that's the only reason why they killed their Queen, as Tyrion says Dany killed more people than all Tywin's and Cersei's kills combined in one day.

 

But that, in and of itself, was stupid.

There's no point to the Night's Watch anymore. The Others were destroyed, the Free Folk are friends and the Wall is broken.

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Posted (edited)

As they shouldn't, really. I would have been even more appalled had they waxed on and on about how many innocents died. Varys and Tyrion really were the only characters with a history of championing smallfolk; for any others it should have been a particularly brutal but conventional sack. I'm glad Jon ultimately decided to go Sic Semper Tyrannis to protect his family, upon being manipulated by Tyrion to save his hide, rather than to punish Dany for roasting smallfolk. That was the only thing that made the Jon/Dany scene somewhat believable for me. Of course, it also only makes it more clear that all the excessive, senseless burning in E5 was addressed solely at us, the audience. To kindly inform us who we are meant to root for when Good Boy Jon Snow betrays his lover's/relative's trust and foregoes his oath of allegiance to his queen (much more serious crimes in a mediaeval context than any number of burned smallfolk!) to assassinate Dany. Because anything else could have actually showed him as a grey and interesting character, and we couldn't have that now, could we?

Edited by Isewein

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

But that, in and of itself, was stupid.

There's no point to the Night's Watch anymore. The Others were destroyed, the Free Folk are friends and the Wall is broken.

The majority of Westeros didn't believe in White Walkers for hundreds of years anyway, but they still kept the Night's Watch, for protecting the Wall from the wildlings and for sending away the men that they don't want to kill.

Free Folk couldn't make it at the south of the Wall since northern lords wouldn't accept it, so, they returned there.

Edited by Erkan12

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11 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Plus, the sacking of cities should be common practice. Once a cities gates fell it was fair game and woe to the vanquished. Their objection is that Dany was too good and quick at it. Or, the show now exists in a parallel universe where nobody has ever sacked a city and it’s against the rules of war.

Sacking and looting the a city is not the same as killing all its inhabitants and razed to the ground. In our history, this was mostly performed by Steppe Hordes like the Huns and Mongols, and we know how devastating the loss of life around the middle east was during Genghis Khan's time. KL is supposed to be the equivelent of Rome during it's prime, and it's sacking by the Visigoths was not nearly as devastating compared to what Dany did to KL. And yes, if the army raped, looted and pillaged it's way through it would have made more sense. But still, one of the reasons why Dany wanted the Unsullied was because they would not rape, loot and pillage. What point was that for if she was just going to kill everyone? Dany wanted to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, and it's rather foolish to burn your new capital to the ground, as someone else commented the economic ramifications would be severe. Not to mention the political ramifications, would the lords of Westeros just silently accept her as queen? They might out of fear, but it doesn't meant that they would be loyal.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:25 AM, martianmister said:

Tyrion was more interested in his siblings' well-being and only rebelled against her after finding his siblings' dead bodies.

To be fair, he saw what happened to the city and the people, when he walked from the gates to the ruined Red Keep and he didn't looked cold/emotionless or pleased at all. And I think he had to find the bodies before he quit being Daenery's Hand, because he was the only one who knew where to look for them and who had the best motive to find them. And of course the viewers wanted or needed to know, that they were definitely dead (so somebody had to find them). Would he have gone straight to Daenerys and then into a cell, that wouldn't have been possible.

On 5/21/2019 at 12:25 AM, martianmister said:

Jon and Davos proclaimed "we won, war is over," they wanted to look forward.

I think they wanted to prevent even more unnecessary slaughter, rape and so on (they tried their best with the Unsullied, but were outnumbered), so they reminded everyone, that the deed is done.

On 5/21/2019 at 12:25 AM, martianmister said:

Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom.

I think he killed her to prevent further mass murder and to prevent Daenerys silly plan to conquer and rule the world with fire and blood.

The show had many flaws, gigantic plotholes and in phases very bad storytelling, but these points were rather well done.

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Posted (edited)

There was a lot of reaction from Tyrion, Jon, Davos and Arya that showed that they did care and were devastated by the piled of charred bodies and it very much factored into Jon killing Daenerys. Sure they didn't dwell on it, but there are a couple things to consider here:

1)For people on a Medieval level of society horror, war and death are much more common than they are today and the characters just went through a series of wars and battles over the last years all of them losing people they deeply cared for. They are more desensitized against it

2)Most of of the nobles at the council weren't hear the children scream as Daenerys torched the city, to them it's just a couple more ruins in a war that ravaged most of the continent. The only one who shouldn't be accustomed to sights like that would be Sweetrobin and it's been shown that he doesn't have any empathy for others and likes to make people fly, so why would he care that thousands of people were burned to death? It might just make him want a Dragon or remark that it was their own fault for not living at a safe place like the Eyrie.

3)The episode and the whole season was rushed and extremely badly written. Can't dwell on consequences if we "have" to watch Bran's small council act like a terrible work place sitcom. Events being isolated and episodic, forgotten as soon as they happened has been a  problem for multiple seasons now. Tyrion and Varys never reacted to Littlefinger's death, Sansa never reacted to Margaery's etc. etc. etc.

4)If you look at the final scenes that take place in a seemingly undamaged King's Landing and Red Keep, it seems even King's Landing "forgot" that it was carpet bombed.

Edited by Orphalesion

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What should not have happened is that Varys and Tyrion would object to Dany torching the Red Keep, from the outset.  That's a contrivance.  It's how you finish the war, quickly.  It can end the war in half an hour, and if innocents die, the numbers will be far fewer than in a prolonged war or siege. So, we get several episodes of their giving Daenerys bad advice, with no real acknowledgment that they've been giving her bad advice.  Dany's increasing distrust towards them is portrayed as someone going mad, when in truth it's a rational response from a leader who is given bad advice.  Either my advisors are incompetent, or they are betraying me.

At the end of Episode 4, it's pretty well established that Dany plans to burn the Red Keep.  Varys by now is horrified, but that's another contrivance.  Dany's plan is militarily justified, and certainly not out of line with the military ethics that the show runners have established in this world.  Varys then turns traitor completely, going as far as trying to poison her.  Her decision to execute him is portrayed as an act of terrible cruelty, rather than something that any monarch would do to a traitor (probably in a more prolonged and messy fashion).

At Episode 5, if Dany had simply flown for the Red Keep (as it looked as if she was going to do, and as she said she would do), then razed it to the ground, that would have been a sensible, if brutal, act of war.  But, that wouldn't have justified Jon then murdering her.  So, she swerves away from the Red Keep to waste time strafing street after street of fleeing civilians.  In five minutes she goes from being a heroic, if grey, character, to  become the equivalent of  Obergruppenfuhrer Bach-Zelewski, incinerating Warsaw and slaughtering its inhabitants.   And then, to really ram home the Nazi comparison, we get the Triumph of the Will scene in the next episode, where she's ranting and raving about conquering the world.  And it is beautifully acted (Emilia Clarke says she did model it on Hitler's speeches) in itself - but we need more than a few minutes of screen time to show her becoming Adolf Hitler.  It took time, after all, for Adolf Hitler to become a genocidal maniac. 

And then note her excuse to Jon, that Cersei was using these people as hostages.  No, Cersei was using the civilians in the Red Keep as hostages, not the people running away in the streets.  The show runners made her Hitler overnight, so that Jon could kill her, and the Starks could inherit.  They had run out of time to complete the series sensibly, so they botched it.

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5 minutes ago, Zuzu Bolin said:

Surely protecting Sansa and the North was the only reason Jon killed Dany. 

I doubt that's the only reason, Jon understood that Dany isn't going to forgive anyone, and continue to burn everyone and even execute the surrendered prisoners all the same.

But I agree if you say Arya, Sansa and the North was the most important reason, but surely not the only one.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:25 AM, martianmister said:

but nothing world shattering

Well, it is a big city but NOT the world. So why should it be world shattering. They are devastated and shocked by the destruction and human suffering, but it's war and they have seen several fields of war after a battle. Thousands of deaths, of amputated limbs, of unbelievable suffering. 

They are mostly shocked by the turn of events and the snapping of Daenerys. Tyrion trusted in her, Jon was in love with her. They are in shock.

On 5/21/2019 at 12:25 AM, martianmister said:

Jon killed her to protect his siblings and himself, not to avenge fleabottom

Of course. Jon reacted mainly to (1) Arya telling him "I know a killer when I see one", meaning his own life to be in obvious danger, and (2) to Daenerys announcing to "the war is not over ... free all the people of the world ... from Winterfell to Dorne" which is a clear threat towards Sansa, and of course (3) Tyrion analysing Daenerys's violent nature.

Jon kills Daenerys because she is a threat to the realms of men, to Sansa and his family, and to him personally.

13 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I thought it would have shocked Arya into doing something in the long term but no. She runs away.

I don't understand what you mean. Her brother is King of the Six Kingdoms, her sister is Queen in the North. Jon is savely in the North. What should she worry about? 

It's fine that she tries to find her own happiness somewhere, to go on adventures, to rest her vengeance.

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