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White Walker King

Two Questions about this Episode

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3 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

There's nothing left for the Night's Watch to even do.

Right. Even as a penal colony there is not much to do. They can refurbish Castle Black and rebuild East Watch to occupy themselves. They can care for the wall if need be. 

The "Wildlings" are a proper free folk now, accepted and in friendship with the North. There won't be any confrontations soon. They are a lot less anyway, have more than enough ressources now and they certainly want their peace, too.

A Night's Watch simply does not make sense if we believe in the Others are entirely beaten.

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2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

 and if the looks he was getting from the Wildling women was any indication he wasn't gonna swear off the ladies anytime soon either.

The guy murdered the last woman he slept with and watched the first woman he ever slept with murdered by his own men.

I don't imagine Jon's libido will be concerned with women for quite some time.

2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

 

There's nothing left for the Night's Watch to even do.

Sure there is. Jon will likely become the Lord Commander again, if not one the top men. There is plenty to do.  Training, rebuilding defences, dealing with the dead.

2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

The Free Folk are allies,

Except not really. They were allies when it was humanity against the White Walkers and the Dead. But the Wildlings are many, many different tribes, not united under one.

Their way of life, that no one owns anything and its there to be taken, contradicts the way of life of Westeros.  This alliance is not going to last long.

2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

the Others are dead.

The Others were not the reason Jon joined the Watch. They were believed to be a fairy tale, or long dead thousands of years ago.

The fact that they are now known to exist means the Watch is now more important than it has been in thousands of years.

Will they return? No one in Westeros knows. Are there more out there? No one in Westeros knows? What part of beyond the Wall did they come from? No one in Westeros knows?

The Nights Watch will be asking and finding out these questions. They will be funded heavily by both the Crown and Winterfell because hoping for the best is not a deterrent.

2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

 

Sending Jon to Castle Black was just to appease Grey Worm and little else.  

Not really. You think if Earth was invaded by aliens and we killed all the Aliens the world powers would give up on Space defence? It would become more important, not less.

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33 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure there is. Jon will likely become the Lord Commander again, if not one the top men. There is plenty to do.  Training, rebuilding defences, dealing with the dead.

 

Not really. You think if Earth was invaded by aliens and we killed all the Aliens the world powers would give up on Space defence? It would become more important, not less.

Jon was heading North with Tormund and the Free Folk. He didn't look to be taking any vows.

As for the aliens, alot of the Southern lords prob'ly still don't believe the Walkers were real. Bran claims to know the origin of the whole thing and is satisfied killing the Night Kind ended the problem. Bran is all knowing now, if he's not concerned there's no reason for the rest of Westeros to be. We know the Night King was only a show construct, but even so, as the show played out the NK was the key. He's gone, there is no other. The books may play differently, but in the show, the Walkers are eradicated.

 

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11 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Jon was heading North with Tormund and the Free Folk.

Yes, he is obviously riding North to live with the Free Folk.

11 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Bran is all knowing now, if he's not concerned there's no reason for the rest of Westeros to be.

Right.

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Jon was heading North with Tormund and the Free Folk. He didn't look to be taking any vows.

It was a 10 second montage. We also did not see Arya hire a boat and crew but we can be reasonably certain she did just that before she was on a boat.

Rangers of the Nights Watch frequently go North. And Jon was dressed as a Watchman, clearly different to the Wildlings with him.

Also rewatch, he arrives in Brown with the two Watchmen all in Black and changes into his all black nightswatch uniform, he's not worn that for the last season and a half. The writing might be bad but the costume department know what they are doing and what Jon is wearing is not random, its the Night watch Uniform, its very deliberate.

Quote

As for the aliens, alot of the Southern lords prob'ly still don't believe the Walkers were real.

They don't have to, the Hand of the King does. As does his entire Small Council.

Quote

 

Bran claims to know the origin of the whole thing and is satisfied killing the Night Kind ended the problem.

That is never said to my knowledge. If you tell me which episode and how many minutes in this information is given I'll gladly verify it for you.

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Rangers of the Nights Watch frequently go North. And Jon was dressed as a Watchman, clearly different to the Wildlings with him.

Also rewatch, he arrives in Brown with the two Watchmen all in Black and changes into his all black nightswatch uniform, he's not worn that for the last season and a half. The writing might be bad but the costume department know what they are doing and what Jon is wearing is not random, its the Night watch Uniform, its very deliberate.

This is a good point. I’ve been seeing debates on other threads as to whether Jon was deserting the Nights Watch to go off and live with the Wildings.

After thinking it over, I am of the opinion that he was riding North of the wall with them as an escort. There are still plenty of dangers apart from the WW (like wild animals) beyond the Wall. It makes sense that a ranger would accompany them back to wherever they are going to settle. Jon will probably spend plenty of time north of the wall (that’s not a foreign concept for the NW), and I imagine he’ll be welcome to hang out with Tormund’s band whenever he’s in their vicinity. But I just don’t see him deserting the Nights Watch and becoming a true wildling.

Jon is all about doing his duty, and after killing his love/queen, I’m sure he feels like he deserves to be punished, and will serve out this punishment (however hollow it may be) in his true brooding fashion.

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On 5/21/2019 at 4:53 AM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

Because Bran is just a temporary King. After his death, someone else, most likely, not even a Northerner, will become a next King, and then all Northerners will have to submit to that other King. And they are the ones who saved all the rest of Westeros' Kingdoms from the Undead Army, so they deserve to become independent. Other Kingdoms are indebted to them. So letting The North to separate, is the least they can do, to repay that debt.

On 5/21/2019 at 4:53 AM, White Walker King said:

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

Because, besides being a protection of 7K's people against the wildlings, and an unknown threat from The Lands of Always Winter, The Wall and the Night's Watch was also a place for men, that had no other place to go. A place, where a bastard could have made a name for himself. A place, where murderers, rapists and other criminals were given an option to go, instead of being executed. A place, where an orphan, that has no family, and no home, is given a new family, and for life is provided with shelter, food and clothes, and even with free education and medical service.

So, even though there's no more Others, and the wildlings are not enemies anymore, the Night's Watch is still needed. As an alternative to worser options.

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4 hours ago, Pauld123 said:

Czechoslovakia - Split into Czech Republic and Slovakia on January 1st 1993. Very peaceful, good relations remain. 

Also a significant amount of British Colonies declared independence without a fight or recrimination and now exits in a peaceful commonwealth with UK, Which is I assume the relationship Sansa wants with the six kingdoms.

Yes, you're right, things are different now in the UN era, but I was thinking about pre-modern history.

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2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

We know the Night King was only a show construct, but even so, as the show played out the NK was the key. He's gone, there is no other. The books may play differently, but in the show, the Walkers are eradicated.

I woudn't be so sure about that. It seems, that everyone forgot about this:

That baby (or any other little White Walkers) wasn't amongst White Walkers, that came to Winterfell with the Night's King. That guy (NK), he knew, how was he made the way he became. And there was dragonglass stashes even on the other side of The Wall. So NK could have did the same thing with that baby, that was done to him. He created a little Night's King, with usage of dragonglass. And left that baby, and other small White Walkers (Craster's sons, that were born recently) in the far far north. If at least one of those babies had a piece of dragonglass in his heart, then, even after Arya killed the original Night's King, and with him all those White Walkers, that he had created, also fell apart, other White Walkers, those that were created by the Baby-King, didn't died. Craster was providing the Night's King with babies for many years. So the Night's King, prior going south, to fight with The Three-Eyed Raven, could have created a new Night's King, and made him to create his own White Walkers. So it's possible, that there are still at least one more Night's King in the far north, and his WW. And Bran may not even know about that, because NK had power able to prevent Bran from spying. He could have used that anti-spying barrier on the Baby-King.

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He created a little Night's King, with usage of dragonglass.

Complete speculation. Might happen in a sequel, not impossible, but entirely unfounded.

The Children of the Forest applied their magic to use dragon glass to create the Nigth King. Obviously, if normal men put a dragon glass arrow head into a man's chest, it is just a normal weapon and will cause injury and not transformation. Whether the Nightking has the magic to use dragon glass to create further Nightkings we simply don't know. What we do know is that dragon glass seems to be lethal to White Walkers, though, so probably to the transformed baby, too.

Of course, also the Children of the Forest might have created more than one original White Walker and the Nightking just being one of them. There are ways to build up for a new threat. But based on what we saw in the show, this is simply not the case.

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13 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Of course, also the Children of the Forest might have created more than one original White Walker and the Nightking just being one of them. There are ways to build up for a new threat. But based on what we saw in the show, this is simply not the case.

Exactly. When Bran is north of the Wall living under the tree he learns the back story of the Night King. The entire story is very singular, they seem to have created one Night King only. Also Bloodraven and what's left of the Children never even hint that there is more than one. As far as the show is concerned it seems clear, the Children created the Night King, and he created his army. 

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The independent North doesn't have to pay taxes to  the now deeply indebted King's Landing anymore. They don't get anything back from that. The only reason for the Seven Kingdoms to be one nation is to prevent the constant wars they waged against each other before that, and to defend against foreign invasion. But the North can be independent - it won't invade the South, a war they couldn't win anyway. And there won't be a foreign invasion, because there are no more Targaryens with dragons. Plus they and the South would probably help each other against a foreign invader anyway.

So, a benefit and no downside.

Also, the North are the First Men, who were there before the Andal invasion of the South. They defeated the Andal attempt to take the North. They remained independent until the Targaryens came with their dragons. Now there are no more Targaryens or dragons, and the South is too weak to stop their independence. It was natural they'd break free. They have their own customs, they are a separate people, albeit influenced by the South. They also retain the ancient religion, worshiping the Old Gods, though they also have the new religion. One of the first things Sansa could do is to emphasize the Old Gods (as we see her do beneath the Weirwood tree) to emphasize their separate culture.

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23 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

This is a good point. I’ve been seeing debates on other threads as to whether Jon was deserting the Nights Watch to go off and live with the Wildings.

After thinking it over, I am of the opinion that he was riding North of the wall with them as an escort. There are still plenty of dangers apart from the WW (like wild animals) beyond the Wall. It makes sense that a ranger would accompany them back to wherever they are going to settle. Jon will probably spend plenty of time north of the wall (that’s not a foreign concept for the NW), and I imagine he’ll be welcome to hang out with Tormund’s band whenever he’s in their vicinity. But I just don’t see him deserting the Nights Watch and becoming a true wildling.

Jon is all about doing his duty, and after killing his love/queen, I’m sure he feels like he deserves to be punished, and will serve out this punishment (however hollow it may be) in his true brooding fashion.

Absolutely. I don't know why people don't realize this. If he had deserted there would be symbolism to show that. He'd drop his black cape - so easy. Of course the producers would think of that.

But the end is to show us that he does have something else to do in his life than just sit at the castle. He can be in the wild, he can sleep with women there, etc.

Jon Snow knows the Wildlings, he knows Tormund. It is natural he'd follow them to see where they settle. THIS IS WHAT THE NIGHT'S WATCH DOES. It keeps tabs on undead and Wildlings. Who better to do that than Jon? Again, I don't know why people don't understand this. It would be professional misconduct to not have someone follow the Wildlings to see where they go.

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1. Bran, is the king of the six kingdoms

2. Sansa, is queen of the north 

3. Arya, queen west of Westeros 

4. Jon, king beyond the wall

 

The locations merely facilitate their lofty stature, a family torn apart by betrayal, murder and lies sewn back together. 

House Stark, noble, brave, cunning and royal. 

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10 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

One of the first things Sansa could do is to emphasize the Old Gods (as we see her do beneath the Weirwood tree) to emphasize their separate culture.

Sansa swore to Jon not to reveal her secret right under the Weirwood tree. Five minutes later she betrays that oath; talk about devotion to the Old Gods!

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11 hours ago, Calaryion said:

1. Bran, is the king of the six kingdoms

2. Sansa, is queen of the north 

3. Arya, queen west of Westeros 

4. Jon, king beyond the wall

 

The locations merely facilitate their lofty stature, a family torn apart by betrayal, murder and lies sewn back together. 

House Stark, noble, brave, cunning and royal. 

I don't get all the Stark hate from a lot of GoT fans. The Starks endured more hardship and betrayal than any other family in Westeros. They deserve some happiness. And that's not to say that I think Sansa is all excited about being queen like she was when she was a girl. She knows very well now that's not what it's all about. She may feel entitled to it, but I expect she also sees it as a responsibility, just like her father did.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Sansa swore to Jon not to reveal her secret right under the Weirwood tree. Five minutes later she betrays that oath; talk about devotion to the Old Gods!

Well, she didn't swear by the gods, so I don't think that has anything to do with devotion (or lack of) to the gods. She said a long time ago she had stopped praying because her prayers were never answered.

Regarding the Night's Watch, I'm sure y'all recall the sprig of grass poking up through the snow as Jon and the FF were leaving the wall. Destroying the NK obviously ended the crazy turn of seasons experienced by Westeros. Although the land north of the wall will obviously never be warm and temperate, it probably will not be a frozen wasteland anymore. And since it is the least populated part of Westeros, that makes it a strategic point of entry for foreign invaders. Why should there be no more foreign invasions just because the Targaryens are gone? The NW would be the first line of defense against any such invasion.

And I wish people would remember that by virtue of being the 3ER, Bran is no longer a Stark.

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On 5/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, Figdoni said:

1. They didn't have to. But they wanted to. And allowing them to do so means a fresh start rather than starting from a place of conflict and turmoil where not everyone wants to be there. They have a longer history as an independent North than as part of the 7 Kingdoms and have different customs, ways, concerns, predominant religion etc so its the choice that suits them best ... and this is the perfect time for them to choose to split, since there is no standing/inheriting monarch to have their nose out of joint about "losing" a bit of their kingdom.

2. I don't think it is necessary. Other than Tyrions description: "The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men"
It's a place to get away to... to find exile... an edge of the world for people who need a remote place to piss off. It certainly no longer has a function as protection for the realm.
I definitely don't feel its a place for 'criminals/undesirables' as expressed above, they've got plenty of prisons for that... but more of a place for those who need to leave regular society (or who don't fit in, in some way) and forge a new home of sorts amongst others like them.

 

1. The North/Starks claiming independence is fine if you look at it from Sansa's point of view. The North also had claimed independence back in Season 1, briefly gave it up when the Bolton's took Winterfell, and went back to independence in Season 6...then gave it up to Dany, who is now dead. Anyways, the North wanting to be independent makes total sense. 

Buuuuut FFS the whole Bran is King thing was clearly a unity vote. Let's all band together because we're stronger/better when together vs divided. Ok fine. But then as soon as Sansa breaks the unity and says the North wants independence, all logic quickly unravels: 

  1. The logic here about different customs, ways, religion etc also applies elsewhere.........
  2. Iron Isles: Yara would immediately follow-up by asking for Iron Isle independence, since the Greyjoys have been fighting for that literally the entire series (and independence was granted by Dany, who Yara was fighting for). Yara has NEVER MET BRAN, knows nothing about him, has zero reason to support him. 
  3. Dorne: The Prince of Dorne would also want independence. Again, Dorne supported Dany who is dead, and Dorne has ALWAYS desired independence. Dorne has NEVER MET BRAN, knows nothing about him, has zero reason to support him. 
  4. So, now you have 3 kingdoms who should reject the unity vote. Who's to say what the Eyrie, the Riverlands, the Reach, Westerlands, or Stormlands want to do, but who cares - as soon as 1 kingdom rejects unity, all others would either fight the defection or defect themselves. 
  5. How would Bran, who is from the North, be King of other kingdoms who are no longer associated with the North?  He's not even a citizen/resident. At a minimum, they'd want to elect someone actually from their new 6 kingdoms thing. This is like having a meeting where someone tries to make Canada, the US, & Mexico into 1 country, "The Three Kingdoms." And all 3 agree to join, and they elect some random kid from Calgary to lead "The Three Kingdoms."  But then Canada is like nah, we're good on our own, you should just be "The Two Kingdoms" but hey please keep our Canadian resident to lead the US and Mexico. 

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