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White Walker King

Two Questions about this Episode

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Posted (edited)

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

Edited by White Walker King

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On 5/20/2019 at 9:53 PM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

1. Because Sansa is a snotty brat who seized the opportunity to finally be the queen she always wanted to be. (Jon may have forgiven her for being a lousy snitch but I have not!)

2. Because they still need somewhere to send criminals and other undesirables, and what better place than to a collection of miserable men banished to the desolate, frozen north?

And 3. Just because.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 2:53 AM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

1. They didn't have to. But they wanted to. And allowing them to do so means a fresh start rather than starting from a place of conflict and turmoil where not everyone wants to be there. They have a longer history as an independent North than as part of the 7 Kingdoms and have different customs, ways, concerns, predominant religion etc so its the choice that suits them best ... and this is the perfect time for them to choose to split, since there is no standing/inheriting monarch to have their nose out of joint about "losing" a bit of their kingdom.

2. I don't think it is necessary. Other than Tyrions description: "The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men"
It's a place to get away to... to find exile... an edge of the world for people who need a remote place to piss off. It certainly no longer has a function as protection for the realm.
I definitely don't feel its a place for 'criminals/undesirables' as expressed above, they've got plenty of prisons for that... but more of a place for those who need to leave regular society (or who don't fit in, in some way) and forge a new home of sorts amongst others like them.

Edited by Figdoni

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1.  Sansa wants to be queen so naturally she'd push for independence.  And if we need a reason that doesn't take for granted that Sansa has effectively become Littlefinger, Bran is only king at the moment.  When he passes and they convene to elect a new king it is highly unlikely that they would elect one that would care about the north beyond it being a source of tax revenue.

2.  They needed a get Jon out of jail free card so naturally they brought up the Night's Watch.  Knowing that the Unsullied would not be versed enough in Westeros law to realize that the Night's Watch was effectively disbanded and had no reason to exist.  Now it continues to exist to prove that it wasn't just some selfish attempt to save Jon's life.

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27 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

1.  Sansa wants to be queen so naturally she'd push for independence.  And if we need a reason that doesn't take for granted that Sansa has effectively become Littlefinger, Bran is only king at the moment.  When he passes and they convene to elect a new king it is highly unlikely that they would elect one that would care about the north beyond it being a source of tax revenue.

2.  They needed a get Jon out of jail free card so naturally they brought up the Night's Watch.  Knowing that the Unsullied would not be versed enough in Westeros law to realize that the Night's Watch was effectively disbanded and had no reason to exist.  Now it continues to exist to prove that it wasn't just some selfish attempt to save Jon's life.

The funny thing is, Bran could literally pardon Jon the second Grew Worm leaves, ha ha ha

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:53 AM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

Because it's an elective monarchy. There is no Stark dynasty in the south.

On 5/21/2019 at 3:53 AM, White Walker King said:

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

It's a glorified prison.

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 2:53 AM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

Fanservice. Northern independence was a big thing for the show, a large part of the fanbase saw Robb as the hero of the first few series.

It appeases both Robb and Sansa fans by making her a ruler and equal to her brother Bran.

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 2:53 AM, White Walker King said:

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

No one believed in the Others before a few seasons ago, and yet the Watch existed. It has existed for centuries regardless of the existence of Others.

Also if we were invaded by aliens and managed to kill them all that would not put an end to space defence, it would increase it. No one has any idea what the Others really were, if there are any more out there or if they could one day return. The Watch is probably more important now than it was in season one.

The Wildlings culture has not changed, they still believe in taking what they want, they've been enemies of the North for thousands of years. Some of those tribes are likely to revert to their former selves pretty quickly.

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I suppose he could approve the Norexit with a nod but in the case of the Iron Isles vs Bran he had to overrule the Dany’s decision: “enough with this independence crap, you’re back in the kingdom!”.

He could have kept only the Northern Iron Island for the crown let the rest go feral. 

Of course, I’m being spiteful ‘cause I can’t stand the little weirbonsai. 

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War is inevitable with only 2 large kingdoms on the continent. 

Maybe things are different on Westeros, but on Earth it has never been a positive for a large nation to break up into smaller nations. There is always recrimination and blame, it endures, and trouble follows. And you've seen how greedy and opportunistic these Westerosi lords are. If there's not a power balance--and there probably would not be a power balance--the stronger side will make its move.

Peace might last for the rest of Bran's rule, but if the Three-Eyed Raven is supposed to live for 1000 years or whatever you may sure that Bran's reign won't make it past the first 50. This place is naturally unstable and this artificial condition of a northern king ruling the south is not something that seems built to last.

Unless Bran has some kind of weird magic, but if he does nobody has bothered to tell us so.

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The North fought and died in the battle vs the dead.  They sort of earned their right to at least request to become independent again and when the opportunity came Sansa took it.  I am not just seeing the issue here. 

Someone mentioned something like, well once the North got that, why didn't Dorne the ask for it.  Or another kingdom.  The answer should be obvious there.

To the 2nd question it's been answered.  Again, glorified prison/place of solitude.

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3 hours ago, Figdoni said:

1. They didn't have to. But they wanted to. And allowing them to do so means a fresh start rather than starting from a place of conflict and turmoil where not everyone wants to be there. They have a longer history as an independent North than as part of the 7 Kingdoms and have different customs, ways, concerns, predominant religion etc so its the choice that suits them best ... and this is the perfect time for them to choose to split, since there is no standing/inheriting monarch to have their nose out of joint about "losing" a bit of their kingdom.

2. I don't think it is necessary. Other than Tyrions description: "The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men"
It's a place to get away to... to find exile... an edge of the world for people who need a remote place to piss off. It certainly no longer has a function as protection for the realm.
I definitely don't feel its a place for 'criminals/undesirables' as expressed above, they've got plenty of prisons for that... but more of a place for those who need to leave regular society (or who don't fit in, in some way) and forge a new home of sorts amongst others like them.

This, mostly.   But NW is basically a penal colony.  I doubt that any place in Westeros has 'plenty of prisons'.  Prisons were not common in feudal/medieval settings.  They cost too much money to keep running.

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On 5/20/2019 at 9:53 PM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

1. The North HAS BEEN independent for several years since Robb Stark was crowned King In The North. They never went back after that and the ruling Lannisters have considered them rebels and traitors ever since. This bit between Sansa & Bran is just the crown finally recognizing the North as a separate entity.

2. It wasn't explicitly expressed but I don't think there is a Night's Watch anymore. The Free Folk were occupying Castle Black for a time but they didn't plan to stay long term. "Banishing" Jon to the Wall is just a way to satisfy Grey Worm without penalizing Jon too badly for doing what needed doing. As someone else already mentioned, once the Unsullied sail for Narth, there's nothing to stop Bran from issuing Jon a full pardon. 

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1. Apparently Bran can't have children, and after his reign they will elect a new king. So it might be in Bran's interest to let the North be independent, for the sake of his family. I find it more strange that the other Wardens didn't claim independence too.

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1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

1. The North HAS BEEN independent for several years since Robb Stark was crowned King In The North. They never went back after that and the ruling Lannisters have considered them rebels and traitors ever since. This bit between Sansa & Bran is just the crown finally recognizing the North as a separate entity.

2. It wasn't explicitly expressed but I don't think there is a Night's Watch anymore. The Free Folk were occupying Castle Black for a time but they didn't plan to stay long term. "Banishing" Jon to the Wall is just a way to satisfy Grey Worm without penalizing Jon too badly for doing what needed doing. As someone else already mentioned, once the Unsullied sail for Narth, there's nothing to stop Bran from issuing Jon a full pardon. 

After Robbs death, and the Boltons being named the Wardens of the North by the crown, they were part of the 7 kingdoms again, until Jon was named the Kind in the Norf.

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3 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Unless Bran has some kind of weird magic

He can literally see everything that's ever happened, if not in the world then at least in Westeros. Since '10 minutes ago' is also technically the past, he has a near-real-time omniscience, which means he knows of any plots being hatched against him. More importantly, he has both the knowledge of all events leading up to such plots and the compassion to understand why the plotters are behaving in specific ways, allowing him to disarm the plot while addressing any specific grievances.

If that isn't some kind of weird magic (aka superpower) then I don't know what is.

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4 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

War is inevitable with only 2 large kingdoms on the continent. 

 

Yup. Yara now knows that the North is independent, so they can't expect protection from Westeros nor can Yara expect to be condemned for attacking another realm.  Another realm that has lost tens of thousands of soldiers.

The Ironborn are going to have an open season on the Northern coast and Sansa will either have to look weak and ask for help from Westeros or suffer the consequences.

3 hours ago, Vanadis said:

1. Apparently Bran can't have children, and after his reign they will elect a new king. So it might be in Bran's interest to let the North be independent, for the sake of his family. I find it more strange that the other Wardens didn't claim independence too.

Bran can't have kids and now the other Wardens don't need a blood claim to be King. A marriage alliance between two of the major Houses will ensure control of the realm and once in power they can engineer it that their loyalists amass more power and more voting rights.

In a few decades time the heirs of Tyrion and Bronn will be  will be jointly ruling the realm.

 

35 minutes ago, JMCH said:

He can literally see everything that's ever happened, if not in the world then at least in Westeros.

So he knew Dany was going to decimate Kings Landing? What a dick.

But I'm not sure he can. The greenseer abilities can predict the future, but they are not clear and they come in dreams. He can see everything in the past thanks to being the three Raven but the future are via his dreams.

 

3 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

 

2. It wasn't explicitly expressed but I don't think there is a Night's Watch anymore.

Two guys in Night Watch getup escorted Jon to the North. There clearly is a Night Watch in the show, they are likely much, much smaller and are in zero position to stop the Wildlings doing what they please, but they exist.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

... Maybe things are different on Westeros, but on Earth it has never been a positive for a large nation to break up into smaller nations. There is always recrimination and blame, it endures, and trouble follows. ...

Czechoslovakia - Split into Czech Republic and Slovakia on January 1st 1993. Very peaceful, good relations remain. 

Also a significant amount of British Colonies declared independence without a fight or recrimination and now exits in a peaceful commonwealth with UK, Which is I assume the relationship Sansa wants with the six kingdoms.

Edited by Pauld123

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3 hours ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

After Robbs death, and the Boltons being named the Wardens of the North by the crown, they were part of the 7 kingdoms again, until Jon was named the Kind in the Norf.

good point... i stand corrected

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:53 AM, White Walker King said:

1. Why did the north have to become independent? Sansa said that the northmen wouldn't want to kneel to anyone again after all they've been through, but Bran is Ned Stark's only remaining son so why would it be a problem for them to submit to him?

Sansa sees the long-term importance. Future kings will be elected and it might not always be a Stark.

The North wants to be independent from a distant king anyway, even from a distant Stark. Sansa message is clear: The North is rules in and from the North.

On 5/21/2019 at 3:53 AM, White Walker King said:

 2. Why is the Night's Watch necessary anymore with the AotD defeated, and with the Wildlings on friendly terms with the northmen?

Tyrions tells us in the Tyrion/Jon sentence scene that the Night's Watch will be a place for "broken men and bastards", probably meant predominantly as live-disposal for criminals. 

I don't really understand the necessity of a Night's Watch after the end of the Night King, but who knows...? 

Maybe the Stark children came to this compromise to cheat Grey Worm. Probably they know Jon will just go North and live with the free folk, his best friend Tormund and Ghost. Maybe this is all just an excuse to let Jon live on without too much confrontation in King's Landing. 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Two guys in Night Watch getup escorted Jon to the North. There clearly is a Night Watch in the show, they are likely much, much smaller and are in zero position to stop the Wildlings doing what they please, but they exist.

Didn't really notice the Night's Watch gear, I just thought they were Northmen. Not sure it matters much tho'. Jon wasn't about to take any vows, he was going North with Tormund and the Free Folk and if the looks he was getting from the Wildling women was any indication he wasn't gonna swear off the ladies anytime soon either. There's nothing left for the Night's Watch to even do. The Free Folk are allies, the Others are dead. Sending Jon to Castle Black was just to appease Grey Worm and little else.  

Edited by Rory Snow

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