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People's reaction to Dany turning Mad Queen says something about us as humans

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29 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Delusional to a degree maybe, but who wouldn't be after her experiences? We really don't know how she would rule. We know how she deals with the stronghold city of a clan which betrayed her, ambushed her dragon, publicly beheaded her best friend and attempted to kill her multiple times. We know she was just rejected and betrayed by a man she loved and saved after commiting her forces to a war she didn't need to immediately enter to save a population that looked at her with disdain.

Her actions while morally questionable were understandable. To judge her would require time to pass which let her contemplate and actually see what she does. What we got was a joke of an ending.

Actually, she had been threatening to burn cities since early seasons. King's Landing was merely her finally acting on those threats, and when she did restrain herself, it was always thanks to the external advice. But she suffered losses because of that restraint, and so stopped listening. Everything else you list is just cherry on the top.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, she had been threatening to burn cities since early seasons. King's Landing was merely her finally acting on those threats, and when she did restrain herself, it was always thanks to the external advice. But she suffered losses because of that restraint, and so stopped listening. Everything else you list is just cherry on the top.

Are we debating her experiences aren't what caused her actions? Her prior threats were focused on cities where the population truly deserved to be burnt. Kings Landing is more questionable but the circumstances leading to her actions are also more extreme and ultimately they did, as free people, choose to side with Cersi.

Edited by Techmaester

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My take is the that Ice is heartlessness and Fire is unrestrained and consuming passion so I have to imagine that it might connect to Dany going to extremes and messing with whatever caused the Doom of Valyria as that's really the only instance of fire being on par with the potential scale of the Others. Perhaps Icarus flying too close to the sun except everyone would get burned. I'm guessing D&D just decided on this to keep it simple (lazy) and not go into anything like that but they screwed it up. 

I think if the Doom of Valyria had been as devastating as the Long Night and if the forces of Fire were as linked to that existential threat of another Doom we might have something massive to be menaced by.  As it is we have inhuman ice demons and a legion of zombies on the one hand (clearly not you average run of the mill bad news cycle) but Fire itself seems a magical force embodied by dragons but equally accessible to humans like the Red Priests and is a tool used by and a religion worshiped by humans (not universally but still nowhere near an extinction level threat). 

The book forum has long seen arguments that the Starks embodied Ice and that Bran or Jon would go Team Ice (or Team Others) and we would have some epic meta-level conflict between primal and magical forces of ice and fire.  That didn't happen except in the sense that Fire was a tool for Humanity to defeat Ice but fire didn't menace humanity at all.  So it's the imbalance with Fire really being a power to be used by Man that had to be put in the hands of a Mad Queen for us to be reconciled to the message that fire as well as ice, both dragons (Targaryens too) and ice demons have to go. 

My takeaway atm is that WMD in the hands of unstable ideologues is a bad thing so lets get rid of the WMD and the unstable ideologues too but GRRM (ok, D&D) must appreciate we already thought that.

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Centuries of incest should have consequences though, affecting people physiologically in some ways. This is centuries of human choices, not just genetic determinism. YMMV on how much incest makes people more susceptible to mental breaks, but the author is also illustrating a characteristic of pride/hubris that comes with this House. Targaryens believe themselves to be gods. It's their superiority complex that socialized them, dating as far back as Valyrian dragonlords. In this case it's not mental illness per se, but belief in their superiority as a "race" of people because of their specialness and ability to control nuclear weapons. That feeds into their family psychology, subjugating an entire continent just because they could. If you are a product of Targaryen upbringing, you learn to speak the language of "kneel or die" and you absorb the messages of your forebears that you are above "lesser" men. 

What about Maester Aemon?  Incest has it's consequences, sure but Targaryen character is likened to being settled by a coin flip rather than determined by a racial or caste philosophy.  Blood in the sense of royalty or nobility matters hugely in this society and it's not particular to the Targaryens.  

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm going to bring in some book knowledge here just to illustrate why this is a misguided view:

- She viewed the the Dothraki as savages in Book 1, deciding that being the wife of a khal wasn't enough for the blood of the dragon. 

- She treats Irri and Jiqui like stupid girls who know nothing. She uses Irri as a sex slave.

- She starts to see the Lhazareen as an inferior people based on appearance, the way the Dothraki look down on them. 

As you're using book as a guide I have to disagree here as I think you use isolated examples that kind of obscure the main point and the change in her thinking.

The main point is that she embraces Dothraki culture.  She does not do it immediately because she is a terrified 13 year old girl being married to a man at least twice her age and instantly being transported into a culture and way of life that is utterly new and alien to her.  She does not speak a word of Dothraki and her husband and most Dothraki do not speak the Common Tongue.  But that changes, she adapts, she takes pride in how she integrates into Dothraki culture and in short she goes native.  She even makes a Dothraki shirt for Viserys and it is Viserys who shows his scorn for the Dothraki and their culture, calling her a horselord's slut and prompting her memorable rejoinder that he had no right to wear bells in his hair as he had won no battles.  That's thinking and talking like a Dothraki.  Isn't taking something of the Dothraki mindset towards the Lhazarene - and she hardly goes full hog here - indicative of adapting to one culture's views of another rather than looking down on it from her own supreme self-regard

Irri and Jhiqui are valued servants she relies on.  I think you mischaracterise her relationship with them as much as you mischaracterize the (two) sexual interactions between Dany and Irri (one initiated by Irri, one by Dany.

2 hours ago, HeadlessHenchman said:


Now, if we assume for a second that Dany's genuine ambition is indeed to "break the wheel" and rid the world of oppression, she needs the backing of the oppressed. History has taught us that the only way for freedom and change to stick is if the those who are being liberated are actively engaged in their own liberation.


Dany says that she's doing what's she's doing for the sake of generations to come. She's playing the looooong game. To do that, she has to change the mentality of the small folk. Given what she's seeing, due to this oppression related culture clash between Essos and Westeros, "just" taking out Cersei is pointless. 
Winning the iron throne is pointless if all the peasants beggars and lord-serving nobodies she wants to help aren't in on it. If all they will be looking for is another hand to feed from, she made all her sacrifices for nothing. 

So she makes a statement. Rise up out of the gutters and fight or become an example for others so that they will. Rule through fear for the betterment of all. It's an insane burden to carry, but it's a play that can potentially work. 
 

Well, yes, conceptually.  And this is the most fearful thing in human experience, whether Pol Pot emptying Phnom Penh for the Killing fields of Cambodia or Mao deciding that the only thing stopping the Chinese people achieving what he wanted them to achieve was the Chinese people themselves and deciding first to remake society - five year plans and collectivization of agriculture - and then to remake the Chinese people themselves - the cultural revolution - and causing tens of millions of deaths and ushering in immeasurable chaos and suffering.

But is there really that much of a wheel to break in Westeros compared with Essos?  And do we really need to be shown that using fear and coercion to make people into what you want them to be and slaughtering those who get in the way, whether class enemies, imaginary bourgeois reactionaries, or kulaks or teachers is a bad thing?  It takes a particular cold ruthlessness, even sociopathic personality to be so casual about the destruction of so many lives, livelihoods and the things people hold dear to hammer a them into the mould you set for them and ignore the consequences.  Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot were all indifferent to human life, it's a pretty hard sell for the girl who wanted to do justice.  

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22 hours ago, Techmaester said:

They acted against her, why is it surprising that someone is going to burn down a city which stood against them? That's the nature of conquest and a changing political system. Revolutions and changes in leadership are rarely done without violence. 

Yes, but ...

I was commenting on this from you:  

Quote

 after the long night I think she would have simmered down after a while. Her reign in Essos wasn't all death 

My comments were the counter-examples that disprove those statements.  She was ramping up, not simmering down after KL. And her reign in Essos could have been much death.  I am not providing any value judgments on this.

 

The sad thing is that she would not have likely gotten too far with her conquest.  One dragon, less than 4,000 Unsullied, and who knows how many Dothraki.  She would have had trouble subduing Westeros, particularly if she was ruling only through fear.  At best, she gets as far as Braavos. Then the Faceless Men step in, if they don't do so before. 

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It is worth considering the value of a human with magical blood who can influence of dragons....considering you just fought an army of literal dead I have a hard time understanding how you could think her alliance to you wouldn't be worth what ever the cost considering the futures which were shown as possible.

What ever Danys rule would be, what has been demonstrated is that she isn't the worst there is(not by a long shot). Which makes the ending even less believable.  She's simply too valuable to kill.

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55 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, she had been threatening to burn cities since early seasons. King's Landing was merely her finally acting on those threats, and when she did restrain herself, it was always thanks to the external advice. But she suffered losses because of that restraint, and so stopped listening. Everything else you list is just cherry on the top.

:agree: 

Yup.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Techmaester said:

Delusional to a degree maybe, but who wouldn't be after her experiences? We really don't know how she would rule.

Well, we sort of do.  She upends Meereen society without any plan or system to replace it with something sustainable.  Tyrion has to try to create something of this on the fly.  And he appears to do a pretty bang-up job.  In S7 (is it ep6?), Tyrion tries to get her to discuss her 'new order', but Dany takes this as Tyrion thinking of removing her.  As Daario said, she "is not meant to sit on a throne.   [She] is a Conqueror."   This sort of sounds like Bobby B., in a way.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Yes, but ...

I was commenting on this from you:  

My comments were the counter-examples that disprove those statements.  She was ramping up, not simmering down after KL. And her reign in Essos could have been much death.  I am not providing any value judgments on this.

 

The sad thing is that she would not have likely gotten too far with her conquest.  One dragon, less than 4,000 Unsullied, and who knows how many Dothraki.  She would have had trouble subduing Westeros, particularly if she was ruling only through fear.  At best, she gets as far as Braavos. Then the Faceless Men step in, if they don't do so before. 

They weren't disproven...her speech was just after they won. Her actions in Esso were completely justified and again, not all death but had they been I would have considered them morally justified. If the victim is 1% of the population do you stop to protect the 99% for the sake of their wellbeing? Obviously I have similar moral perspective to her so again I suppose our disagreement is one which cannot be argued to resolution.

Edited by Techmaester

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10 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

What about Maester Aemon?  Incest has it's consequences, sure but Targaryen character is likened to being settled by a coin flip rather than determined by a racial or caste philosophy.  Blood in the sense of royalty or nobility matters hugely in this society and it's not particular to the Targaryens.  

It's probably a mix of genetics and social conditioning like all things in life. The Targaryens arent just "normal" nobility - they set themselves up ABOVE the nobility. Aemon is quite normal the further he is removed from a crown. Interestingly in AFFC when he leaves the Wall and goes further south, he starts to rave about prophecies, like a typical Targaryen, suggesting some kind of mania and obsession (a lot of them had this).

13 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

As you're using book as a guide I have to disagree here as I think you use isolated examples that kind of obscure the main point and the change in her thinking.

You're treating these folks like they're her friends. They're not. They're just followers or servants because that's the kind of relationship she expects. 

She has subtly looked down on the Dothraki since Viserys diedWhen Viserys is alive, she embraces them, yes, and goes native. After Viserys is dead, she makes a subtle turn against their culture by starting to look down on them. She thinks she's better than them because she wants to go for the Iron Throne. She literally says, being a khaleesi isn't enough for her. At that point, she does NOT go native. She goes Targaryen. She wants them to violate their customs just for her. She bends them to HER will. 

15 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

 Irri and Jhiqui are valued servants she relies on.  I think you mischaracterise her relationship with them as much as you mischaracterize the (two) sexual interactions between Dany and Irri (one initiated by Irri, one by Dany.)

"Valued servants she relies on?" What is that even saying? There is no evidence in the books that she sees them any thing more than servants. Even worse, she continues to make jabs at their cultural beliefs throughout.

In ACOK you can again see her entitled attitude toward Dothraki superstitions when she snaps at Irri when she is afraid of the ghosts at Vaes Tolerro. "Dragons aren't afraid of ghosts." She commands Irri to go look for food even though she's scared. 

In ADWD you can see her entitlement when Irri and Jhiqui fight over a member of their own khalaar: 

Quote

“Rakharo is blood of my blood. His life belongs to me, not you,” Dany told the two of them. . .  “Now be quiet. I need to bathe.” She had never felt more soiled. “Jhiqui, help me from these clothes, then take them away and burn them. Irri, tell Qezza to find me something light and cool to wear. The day was very hot.”

How can you not read this and think - "entitled white lady"?

SHE SLAPPED THE HELP - Eroeh, the slave she intended to "save."

And as for the Irri "freely initiating sex" - 

Quote

 

“Not Irri. The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty.”

 

They are her sex "servants." This isn't some sexy lesbian romp. There is no intimacy there. Dany treats her like a human vibrator. Irri is summoned to do her duty: 

Quote

 

“She even went so far as to summon Irri, hoping her caresses might help ease her way to rest, but after a short while she pushed the Dothraki girl away."

 

And then dismissed with a push. 

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9 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

It is worth considering the value of a human with magical blood who can influence of dragons....considering you just fought an army of literal dead I have a hard time understanding how you could think her alliance to you wouldn't be worth what ever the cost considering the futures which were shown as possible.

What ever Danys rule would be, what has been demonstrated is that she isn't the worst there is(not by a long shot). Which makes the ending even less believable.  She's simply too valuable to kill.

Once the magical dead are defeated, who is the greatest threat to you?  Could it be the person who can influence magical dragons?

The problem is Dany doesn't want your alliance, she wants your submission. 

 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Once the magical dead are defeated, who is the greatest threat to you?  Could it be the person who can influence magical dragons?

The problem is Dany doesn't want your alliance, she wants your submission. 

 

Submission is better than death and it's something all the peasants already give to their rulers. The only difference is Dany wants submission from the current leadership. I don't consider it an inappropriate demand considering the benefits of her protection.

There is no reason to think the night king is the end. Him becoming real would fundamentally change Westeros society. This is perhaps the biggest absurdity of the ending, society carrying on as normal after the dead went to war. The reality is after seeing Winterfell nearly every ruler would have immediately aligned with Dany if for nothing else then she represents the strongest defense of humanity. Controlling or not. The ending gets worse and worse the more I think about it, it's just laughable in every way.

Edited by Techmaester

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19 hours ago, Charles Stuart said:

How many states did she march through, conquer and then abandon in the east? She destroyed everything she touched and left little of value to replace or even improve the lives of the people she claimed to be liberating. That indicates that she never was interested in truly improving the lives of these people but more so interested in imposing only her own vision of what "better" was. 

That was her MO in the Esssos, yep.

19 hours ago, Charles Stuart said:

 

The last two episodes of season 8 aren't examples of Daeny suddenly turning for the worst and going against her own character. The odd episodes which stand out are the majority of season 7 and front half of season 8 when her megalomania was being curbed by her advisors for most of the time minus executing the Tarlys.

The last two episodes of season 8 are entirely in character with her actions during seasons 1-6. It's as mentioned previously , most of season 7 and the front half of season 8 which are out of character.

This makes sense, from what we saw.  I think I mentioned something similar, somewhere.

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13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sure, but you could imagine that it would go like it did before when she crucified them. Barristan was also there to offer counsel. It's just the same scenes over and over. I'm sure D&D were like, lets vary it up a bit. At some point they don't have to spoon feed people. Viewers have to actually put in the work. 

No, you do have to provide the pieces to the puzzle, even if you want to create a surprise.

It's like the big reveal in Season 7 that actually Arya and Sansa have figured out that LF is trying to play them off against each other.  There's a missing piece to that puzzle, since right up that point, it's seemed that Arya is going to kill Sansa.

Or Shae, suddenly turning on Tyrion in Season 4.  Why?  Reasons.

Or Doreah, whose relationship with Daenerys is almost a romantic one, turning against her in Season 2.  Why?  Dunno.

Or Ellaria Sand avenging the death of her husband by .......murdering his brother and son.  Again, reasons.

There's a constant pattern of springing shocks on the viewers, at the expense of character development.  

As @Linda put it, this is the Season where the Titanic finally hit the iceberg.

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6 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, she had been threatening to burn cities since early seasons. King's Landing was merely her finally acting on those threats, and when she did restrain herself, it was always thanks to the external advice. But she suffered losses because of that restraint, and so stopped listening. Everything else you list is just cherry on the top.

Not always.  At Astapor, she specifically ordered restraint.  The only innocent we see being killed in the scene is a horse.  Likewise, there was no sack at Meereen (unlike the books) even though she did crucify masters who she deemed guilty of murdering children.  Then she tried very hard to conciliate the masters.

If the show runners wanted her to be seen as Timur the Lame, then we really needed actual footage of her ordering soldiers to bring her back severed heads, massacring prisoners etc.

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14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The books indicate that she profits off the slave trade by taking taxes to sell themselves back into slavery.

Errr ..... really? Inside the walls of Mereen, the only territory she controls?

I don't want to go on nitpicking every point in your post, but as @SeanF said you have cited very selectively and IMO in a lot of places out of context.

It's a very interesting post though, as it seems likely that this is the kind of propaganda that is pouring out of Yunkai, New Ghis, Qarth, Volantis and the other cities in the slaver alliance in the books and we will see POV characters like Arianne take it quite literally in TWOW and ADOS. Victarion's IronBorn are going to number among her allies as well, the same lot who have been pillaging the Reach. Maybe she even brings Daario along, or she will be destined to marry Euron, or has married Victarion (maybe even after Dracarysing Hizdar).

Throw in Essosi sellswords in addition to the troops she had in the show, and torching Mereen because the sons of Harpies have taken over, and maybe torching Pentos as well - the deal Barristan struck with the Tattered Prince gone wrong. 

All this will make her appear crazy to most Westerosi Lords from the time she lands, with Targaryen loyalists having already declared for the more civilized-looking fAegon with his Septa and army of mostly Westerosi exiles. 

This is a totally different set-up compared to this disaster of a show who kept fan-servicing Dany until far too late, with 1-2 incidents per season, that some times were left grey, but were all then retconned later - see she crazy all along. Horrific writing.

Edited by Ser Hedge

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37 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Errr ..... really? Inside the walls of Mereen, the only territory she controls?

I don't want to go on nitpicking every point in your post, but as @SeanF said you have cited very selectively and IMO in a lot of places out of context.

It's a very interesting post though, as it seems likely that this is the kind of propaganda that is pouring out of Yunkai, New Ghis, Qarth, Volantis and the other cities in the slaver alliance in the books and we will see POV characters like Arianne take it quite literally in TWOW and ADOS. Victarion's IronBorn are going to number among her allies as well, the same lot who have been pillaging the Reach. Maybe she even brings Daario along, or she will be destined to marry Euron, or has married Victarion (maybe even after Dracarysing Hizdar).

Throw in Essosi sellswords in addition to the troops she had in the show, and torching Mereen because the sons of Harpies have taken over, and maybe torching Pentos as well - the deal Barristan struck with the Tattered Prince gone wrong. 

All this will make her appear crazy to most Westerosi Lords from the time she lands, with Targaryen loyalists having already declared for the more civilized-looking fAegon with his Septa and army of mostly Westerosi exiles. 

This is a totally different set-up compared to this disaster of a show who kept fan-servicing Dany until far too late, with 1-2 incidents per season, that some times were left grey, but were all then retconned later - see she crazy all along. Horrific writing.

If Daenerys does eventually become insane, in the books, it will have been well-developed.  We know from her internal monologues that it's one of her biggest fears about herself.  That could easily have been developed during the course of conversations with Missandei, in the show.  But no, we just get her giving a few dirty looks to the Northerners, from which Varys deduces that she's her father. So, in her final scenes, she's first ranting and raving like Adolf Hitler, and then talking nonsense to Jon like the mad woman in the attic.  So, obviously, she just has too be killed off, to get her out of the way.

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1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Errr ..... really? Inside the walls of Mereen, the only territory she controls?

I don't want to go on nitpicking every point in your post, but as @SeanF said you have cited very selectively and IMO in a lot of places out of context.

It's a very interesting post though, as it seems likely that this is the kind of propaganda that is pouring out of Yunkai, New Ghis, Qarth, Volantis and the other cities in the slaver alliance in the books and we will see POV characters like Arianne take it quite literally in TWOW and ADOS. Victarion's IronBorn are going to number among her allies as well, the same lot who have been pillaging the Reach. Maybe she even brings Daario along, or she will be destined to marry Euron, or has married Victarion (maybe even after Dracarysing Hizdar).

Throw in Essosi sellswords in addition to the troops she had in the show, and torching Mereen because the sons of Harpies have taken over, and maybe torching Pentos as well - the deal Barristan struck with the Tattered Prince gone wrong. 

All this will make her appear crazy to most Westerosi Lords from the time she lands, with Targaryen loyalists having already declared for the more civilized-looking fAegon with his Septa and army of mostly Westerosi exiles. 

This is a totally different set-up compared to this disaster of a show who kept fan-servicing Dany until far too late, with 1-2 incidents per season, that some times were left grey, but were all then retconned later - see she crazy all along. Horrific writing.

I'm not sure where you are going with this post, but my point was that if she wanted to be seen as an abolitionist who makes a clear moral choice to stand against a great evil,  instead of a wishy washy one, she would have never said this:

"Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife." 

"In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands," Missandei said.

"We'll do the same," Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords.

If some of my points are unfair I suggest reading Dany's chapters again knowing that she'll be a future mass murdering tyrant, like I always knew she was. These things stand out. She is a mess.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm not sure where you are going with this post, but my point was that if she wanted to be seen as an abolitionist who makes a clear moral choice to stand against a great evil,  instead of a wishy washy one, she would have never said this:

"Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife." 

"In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands," Missandei said.

"We'll do the same," Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords.

If some of my points are unfair I suggest reading Dany's chapters again knowing that she'll be a future mass murdering tyrant, like I always knew she was. These things stand out. She is a mess.

She's trying to compromise between her own views, and the views of her subjects who think differently.  One may think it was a poor compromise, that she should have stuck rigidly to her anti-slavery stance, or else just accepted slavery as being one of the facts of life in Meereen, but it's not the act of a tyrant.

Edited by SeanF

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8 hours ago, Techmaester said:

 Are we debating her experiences aren't what caused her actions? Her prior threats were focused on cities where the population truly deserved to be burnt. Kings Landing is more questionable but the circumstances leading to her actions are also more extreme and ultimately they did, as free people, choose to side with Cersi.

Majority of population of these cities were slaves, so it is rather questionable that they deserved to be burnt.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Not always.  At Astapor, she specifically ordered restraint.  The only innocent we see being killed in the scene is a horse.  Likewise, there was no sack at Meereen (unlike the books) even though she did crucify masters who she deemed guilty of murdering children.  Then she tried very hard to conciliate the masters.

If the show runners wanted her to be seen as Timur the Lame, then we really needed actual footage of her ordering soldiers to bring her back severed heads, massacring prisoners etc.

Yes, she did order restraint at Astapor and Meereen. I believe I have mentioned how she has constructed the entire narrative / worldview / idea of herself as a Saviour, Messiah. So she did try to rein in her impulses, but my point is, those impulses, that Targaryen "burn them all" side was always there.

If anything, show runners made her more saintly than she was in the books, which is why her turn to Dark Daenerys came out of left field (just like they made Stannis into hypocritical tyrant, Davos into atheist, etc.). But indications were always there.

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8 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, she had been threatening to burn cities since early seasons. King's Landing was merely her finally acting on those threats, and when she did restrain herself, it was always thanks to the external advice. But she suffered losses because of that restraint, and so stopped listening. Everything else you list is just cherry on the top.

 

7 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

:agree: 

Yup.

She did when she was yet a kid, but then she matured with the help of her advisors and friends/lovers. 

Doesn't mean she isn't a dragon anymore. 

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