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People's reaction to Dany turning Mad Queen says something about us as humans

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4 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

The clubistic sportsfan like attitude of choosing a favorite always felt like an ode to the simplifying contrivances of the script.

And yet, the writers thought it was a good idea to kill one favorite and exile the other. Because why would someone have a problem with that? Sportsfans always take it well when their team loses..

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On 5/25/2019 at 9:32 PM, RFL said:

The destruction of Kings Landing was not out of character for Dany.  She would have done similar sooner except for her advisors and she did in the case of Vaes Dothrak.  We just allow ourselves to believe “they had it coming”.   It wasn’t even, as others have successfully argued, out of the norm in regards to military tactics of the day it’s just dragons are MUCH more efficient than trebuchets.  

But, partly because of how it was shown to us, we reacted to it differently.  Aside from the breaking the wheel speech Danys actions were entirely in character.  If it was madness it was madness that existed for most of her story arc. 

Hi what do you mean she did the same in the case of Vaes Dothrak? She killed no women, no children, and not even any man except for the khals, the leaders, the ones in charge of everyone else's lives. Also the ones keeping her prisoner and who had just threatened to rape her death. But no innocent people at all. So how was it the same? It's true, she didn't listen to her advisors in that case, but again, she took not a single innocent life. Likewise, at Kings Landing, she also didn't listen to advisors in the end, and she also won without having to kill anyone but the soldiers actively fighting her. It's what she does after that is out of character, and Vaes Dothrak is yet another example of how she is careful not to target innocent people. 

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Posted (edited)

Dany also listened to her advisors and put herself in extreme danger to attempt to negotiate with Cersei. It failed completely, until the final seige and wiping out Euron and the ballistas. It occurred to me that the bells in Dothraki culture are trophies of killing enemies, so that is one of Danny’s Influences

Dany goes north of the wall to save the dudes who are getting a wight. Hardly a lack of heart from someone Jon persuaded to help save Westeros, and it is the opposite of what Cersei does. Not too shabby from someone who nukes KL later on.

As is said, conquering has collateral damage. Perhaps we can think about that next time a country does something like bomb Iraq for dishonest reasons. I’m sure only soldiers were killed when Baghdad was bombed because they used smart bombs...not that it was acceptable at all. I heard Bolton wants to go after Iran.

Edited by HoodedCrow
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4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Dany also listened to her advisors and put herself in extreme danger to attempt to negotiate with Cersei. It failed completely, until the final seige and wiping out Euron and the ballistas. It occurred to me that the bells in Dothraki culture are trophies of killing enemies, so that is one of Danny’s Influences

Dany goes north of the wall to save the dudes who are getting a wight. Hardly a lack of heart from someone Jon persuaded to help save Westeros, and it is the opposite of what Cersei does. Not too shabby from someone who nukes KL later on.

As is said, conquering has collateral damage. Perhaps we can think about that next time a country does something like bomb Iraq for dishonest reasons. I’m sure only soldiers were killed when Baghdad was bombed because they used smart bombs...not that it was acceptable at all. I heard Bolton wants to go after Iran.

The city and the troops already surrendered. It was not collateral damage. 

 

Stop apologizing this mad woman! 

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Posted (edited)

I personally didn't care if Dany went full tyrant, but I wanted to see the development of it in a way that made sense. 

It's just poor writing and even poorest character development. People who complain that Dany liked to burn people alive forgot that she only did it to bad people and her enemies. We can argue the burning of the Tarlys.

Yes, burning people alive it's horrible and probably slower and painful but it's the weapon she has at hand and more often than not it is used to set an example. Playing war isn't for the weak of stomach. 

I don't even want to argue this because everything in the last three season of the show had been poorly written for the sake of spectacle without a good plot to support it. At that point in season eight nothing made sense anymore.

The expedition to the north looking for wight was stupid. It was only because they wanted Dany to lose a dragon so the White Walker could bring down a part of Wall and make it south. Showing the wight to Cersei achieved nothing. I understand that life it's meaningless and whatnot, but did Tyrion forget who his sister is? The woman blew the Sept and didn't mind that other people close by got caught in the fire.

Edited by random girl from westeros

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, random girl from westeros said:

I personally didn't care if Dany went full tyrant, but I wanted to see the development of it in a way that made sense. 

It's just poor writing and even poorest character development. People who complain that Dany liked to burn people alive forgot that she only did it to bad people and her enemies. We can argue the burning of the Tarlys.

Yes, burning people alive it's horrible and probably slower and painful but it's the weapon she has at hand and more often than not it is used to set an example. Playing war isn't for the weak of stomach. 

I don't even want to argue this because everything in the last three season of the show had been poorly written for the sake of spectacle without a good plot to support it. At that point in season eight nothing made sense anymore.

The expedition to the north looking for wight was stupid. It was only because they wanted Dany to lose a dragon so the White Walker could bring down a part of Wall and make it south. Showing the wight to Cersei achieved nothing. I understand that life it's meaningless and whatnot, but did Tyrion forget who his sister is? The woman blew the Sept and didn't mind that other people close by got caught in the fire.

What I don’t get...how is it that Cersei blows the sept and presumably a lot of people but the plot treats her like a lost little girl who just can’t help herself and needs a shoulder to cry on? :/ I am not saying that the walk of shame was justified ( it most certainly WAS NOT) but I really got the impression that the tv writers keep trying to soften everything she does- she blows up the sept of baelor but st. Tyrion and everyone good and supposedly smart constantly plead with her to show kindness, try to appeal to her humanity etc...even to the last minute she responds in kind by beheading missandei joffrey-style. Then in her death scene, is further rewarded with idiotic jaimie coming to cuddle and die with her while she cried like a lost little girl? 

When Dany does something similar, she gets stabbed to death as a mental case. Isn’t the other one just as much a mental case as she is? But no, she just can’t help herself...why?

Edited by digiFemme

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6 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

A naked man has few secrets; a flayed one, none.

Mad dog Ramsay, yes.

But it seemed to be temporarily working for him in the show, until those meddling Stark kids!

Again, coming from a country that did have plenty of time to learn the harsh lessons of feudalism and onwards the pitfalls of various systems affording too much power over your 'fellow man' per the modern view of things?

Also, for cruelty points.

You can search the story of Prince Peter and his paramour Lady Inês. 

He was married, but he loved his wife's lady in waiting.

The wife died so they shacked up in bliss.

His father, and the nobility, even the people, disliked the implication he, heir to the throne, had been unfaithful with a woman with connections to a rival nation's ruling house.

The intrigues and rumours grew as they lived far from court, happy and in love.

His father had her killed on the DL.

Peter staged a rebellion against the throne and never forgave his father.

When he was crowned King, he hunted down the men who killed Ines, killed them by ripping out their hearts and, according to legend, ate them with olive oil and vinegar.

He then had his Lady exhumed, married her in full view of the court, sat her on a throne beside his and forced them all to kiss her hand as Queen.

Why couldn't we get this caliber shit and tragic love story if they were going to pull the 'lurv' thing?

 

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1 hour ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Mad dog Ramsay, yes.

But it seemed to be temporarily working for him in the show, until those meddling Stark kids!

Again, coming from a country that did have plenty of time to learn the harsh lessons of feudalism and onwards the pitfalls of various systems affording too much power over your 'fellow man' per the modern view of things?

Also, for cruelty points.

You can search the story of Prince Peter and his paramour Lady Inês. 

He was married, but he loved his wife's lady in waiting.

The wife died so they shacked up in bliss.

His father, and the nobility, even the people, disliked the implication he, heir to the throne, had been unfaithful with a woman with connections to a rival nation's ruling house.

The intrigues and rumours grew as they lived far from court, happy and in love.

His father had her killed on the DL.

Peter staged a rebellion against the throne and never forgave his father.

When he was crowned King, he hunted down the men who killed Ines, killed them by ripping out their hearts and, according to legend, ate them with olive oil and vinegar.

He then had his Lady exhumed, married her in full view of the court, sat her on a throne beside his and forced them all to kiss her hand as Queen.

Why couldn't we get this caliber shit and tragic love story if they were going to pull the 'lurv' thing?

 

Some of the tyrants of Renaissance Italy made Ramsay Bolton look like a choirboy.

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22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Some of the tyrants of Renaissance Italy made Ramsay Bolton look like a choirboy.

Like his own father told him.

Cruel, but ultimately stupid, too erratic type crazy to have any lasting power.

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10 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

The city and the troops already surrendered. It was not collateral damage. 

 

Stop apologizing this mad woman! 

Were the heads of USAAF and RAF mad when they bombed Dresden? Truman when he agreed to destroy Hiroshima and then Nagasaki?

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10 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

The city and the troops already surrendered. It was not collateral damage. 

 

Stop apologizing this mad woman! 

Dany was basically like a good parent who occasionally has to chastise her children for their own good.

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19 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Were the heads of USAAF and RAF mad when they bombed Dresden? Truman when he agreed to destroy Hiroshima and then Nagasaki?

There is a key difference, though. These countries had not yet surrendered when their cities were being bombed.

Burning down the capitol you wish to reclaim, as well as thousands of innocent civilians after Cersei’s forces had surrendered and you had been able to sufficiently demonstrate the might of your dragon by wiping out the Iron Fleet and the scorpions on the walls, sounds pretty insane if you ask me.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, digiFemme said:

What I don’t get...how is it that Cersei blows the sept and presumably a lot of people but the plot treats her like a lost little girl who just can’t help herself and needs a shoulder to cry on? :/ I am not saying that the walk of shame was justified ( it most certainly WAS NOT) but I really got the impression that the tv writers keep trying to soften everything she does- she blows up the sept of baelor but st. Tyrion and everyone good and supposedly smart constantly plead with her to show kindness, try to appeal to her humanity etc...even to the last minute she responds in kind by beheading missandei joffrey-style. Then in her death scene, is further rewarded with idiotic jaimie coming to cuddle and die with her while she cried like a lost little girl? 

When Dany does something similar, she gets stabbed to death as a mental case. Isn’t the other one just as much a mental case as she is? But no, she just can’t help herself...why?

Exactly. Cersei is not a good person at all. One could say that she loved her children and Jamie, but it's only as an extension of herself. 

I have viewed lots of video on the matter of how the writers fail to capture the characters in the books and it's apparently because they like the actors, so they wrote the characters not based in the novels, but the actor who portrayed them. they were basically butchering the characters to give the actor screen time. 

Lena Heady is a good actress, but she spent the last two season starting out the window and sipping wine.  The same amount of interaction that Arya had with the Night King before she killed him, Dany had with Cersei and they were the two characters who were at war with each other.

There is a graphic that showed how much of the dialogue was reduced from season one to season eight. I saw a video on youtube of the last episode and it shows 57 minutes of pure silence.

Edited by random girl from westeros

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3 hours ago, random girl from westeros said:

I have viewed lots of video on the matter of how the writers fail to capture the characters in the books and it's apparently because they like the actors, so they wrote the characters not based in the novels, but the actor who portrayed them. they were basically butchering the characters to give the actor screen time. 

I guess you have watched "The Dragon Demands" videos. If not give them a look (if you have time…), he deals with this subject in depth.

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Cerseis blowing of the Sept is ignored because it was so long ago.  We "got over it".  Had there been a few more episodes we would have gotten over the shock of the destruction of kings landing.  Really it was the shock that provided the controversy.  

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1 minute ago, RFL said:

Cerseis blowing of the Sept is ignored because it was so long ago.  We "got over it".  Had there been a few more episodes we would have gotten over the shock of the destruction of kings landing.  Really it was the shock that provided the controversy.  

I guess we forgot about it.

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On 5/22/2019 at 10:53 PM, Dokivi said:

My other beef with this arc is on purely ideological level, as I believe there are not nearly enough inspirational, well-written, strong female characters in the mainstream media. And this turn for Dany I believe enforces negative stereotypes of women in power AND robs us of a potentially inspirational figure and source of inner strength (which she was for many, including Emilia Clarke).

Hilarious! After every cop show including women who act tougher than the men. After countless shows with women beating up men twice their weight, with some smart quip afterward. Oh, I'll just pick a few examples: Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Xena and, let's see ... ever heard of Arya Stark and The Great Liberator Daenerys? George Martin is a Hollywood creature after all, so he filled the show with feminist propaganda. Gotta have the Gogurrrls!

And still you feminists pretend there aren't enough women beating the men. Oh, my sides. You always pretend that The Oppressors run the media and government so you can roleplay as the poor oppressed, when all the laws and all the media propaganda, including in shows like this one, are made to cater to feminists.

I remember a dumb male media feminist claiming that he watched Wonder Woman in the theater with a woman who got TEARS in her eyes, stuttering, "so this is what it feels like ....... to be REPRESENTED!" Now, I will be nice. I don't think any feminist would actually sit there and cry, so he was making it up. And I don't think anyone could pretend that she "hasn't been REPRESENTED" in the media before. But obviously it wasn't too far from the truth. Obviously there are feminists that will pretend they don't get "REPRESENTATION" enough.

Because if you admitted that laws and propaganda are all geared toward you, then you wouldn't have anything left to blame when you fail.

By the way, why don't feminists ever call for integrated sports? As we have seen in TV shows, women easily beat men in anything physical. So how about pushing for some real change - to let women compete against men in running, boxing, skiing, swimming, golfing, archery, shooting? See, I listen to the demands for equality. No more segregation, let the sexes compete together!

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On 5/27/2019 at 3:04 PM, SeanF said:

Like you, I think she was in a state of shock.  And what could she do?

I disagree.  Viserys had threatened her (unborn) son.  So (from her perspective), he had to die.  She was not in shock.

We see it again and again - Dany reacts violently when one of her children are harmed or threatened with harm.

On 5/27/2019 at 3:04 PM, SeanF said:

In the book, it's clearer that she tried to save her brother, but  ran out of ways to do so.  And, feels huge and unjustified guilt about his death.

I'll have to reread those chapters, now.  :)  I don't remember how she reacted in the books.

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On 5/27/2019 at 4:05 PM, theladyinspring said:

Hi what do you mean she did the same in the case of Vaes Dothrak? She killed no women, no children, and not even any man except for the khals, the leaders, the ones in charge of everyone else's lives. Also the ones keeping her prisoner and who had just threatened to rape her death. But no innocent people at all. So how was it the same? It's true, she didn't listen to her advisors in that case, but again, she took not a single innocent life. Likewise, at Kings Landing, she also didn't listen to advisors in the end, and she also won without having to kill anyone but the soldiers actively fighting her. It's what she does after that is out of character, and Vaes Dothrak is yet another example of how she is careful not to target innocent people. 

Dany went into that meeting (for lack of better words) with the intention of doing what she did.  She was offered the Dosh Khaleen, but refused.  She was going to burn down that structure.  The Khals would be killed, yes.  So would anybody else inside.  It just so happened that there were no 'innocents' harmed.

A counter point re. careful to not target innocents is her initial Plan when she gets back to Meereen.  The Plan includes returning 3 (maybe 4)  cities to the dirt.  Men, women, children, old, and young.  Master and slaves.  If Tyrion wasn't there to talk her out of it, that's what she would have done.

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