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A man doesn't have a name

People's reaction to Dany turning Mad Queen says something about us as humans

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5 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I guess like how people defending the show are deliberately turning a blind eye to:

Ned Stark beheading a guy who just wanted to survive.

Robb Stark beheading an ally who killed hostages.

Sansa smirking while feeding her abuser to dogs and coldly staring as she has her sister slit the throat of her years-long abuser/benefactor.

Jon beheading a man pleading for his life, and later hanging a twelve year old.

Arya smirking while slitting the throat of a paedophile, putting Freys into pies, feeding pies to their relative and smirking while slitting his throat, threatening to flay her sister's face, and threatening to kill multiple great lords of Westeros.

Either ruthlessness is a tacitly necessary feature of dealing with enemies/threats in the dark world of Westeros/Essos, or it's a sign you'll go coocoo for coco puffs after getting the surrender you want and playing death race with civilians (alternatively, being a decent person all the time but seeing your idol start playing the death race makes you score a perfect 10 javelin on a surrendering enemy)

This. Always this.

I'm not saying I'll light fires and sacrifice goats on the altar of Hitler or Lenine. That's crazy.

But in the spirit of a feudal system?

One of the greatest icons of scientific and social development in Portuguese history sixteen century was what we now call an Illuminated Despot. He was responsible for the reconstruction of Lisbon after the horrific earthquake of 1755 and a great defender of the Renaissance values.

He also used the presence of the Inquisition to strip Jews of their assets in the name of the Crown and at discovery of a plot to assassinate the King he was a sort of Hand to?

Search the Martiry of the Távora family. Real Lannister shit.

So, in the show? Everyone who isn't ruthless comes across as limp and not doing their duty.

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Posted (edited)

Bad writing aside, and sorry if anyone has mentioned this before, Daenerys end of arc was not organic, unrealistic. Breaking the wheel doesn’t mean kill your vassals just because they suffered the rule of a previous, and hated, ruler. 

 

I get Daenerys is supposed to be both Robespierre in Kings Landing and, as she plans, Napoleon everywhere else expanding the Revolution. That we can’t apply presentism from a character of a distant time who lives in a different sociological, political, and scientific era. 

In that spirit, I dislike the manipulative presentism D&D applies to her. I’m sure in the books she’d not intentionally kill so many civilians, that stinks of forced by the writers, and, come on... Daenerys doesn’t know Hitler, Goebbels, or Leni Riefenstahl. That was D&D also telling us what to think, pulling that show. Where did they get the gigantic Targaryen banners, so nazi-like. Did they ask Sansa to sew them back at Winterfell?

Bronn said it already: all those lords have a cutthroat ancestor, as in History many important figures wouldn’t stand the test of our morals. 

But I agree the whole show and it’s marketing has pushed us to glorify Daenerys. Is not entirely our fault. 

 

 

Edited by Mono Canalla

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On 5/21/2019 at 4:22 AM, A man doesn't have a name said:

I don't know. I'd like to hear people's opinion on that. Although I feel like Dany's fans are so passionate that this might attract some angry comments.

Do you only realize that many posters in this thread are NOT Dany's fans. People who like me found her cruel, ruthless, too self confident, annoying with her so-called rights to the throne, etc.

I've never expected her to end up on that throne, feared and respected by all Westerosi… but the way the authors got rid of her is an insult to the intelligence of the audience.

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On 5/20/2019 at 9:22 PM, A man doesn't have a name said:

I see people complaining about poor character development, or unforeseen corruption of Daenerys, but I honestly feel like people are mad because of how humans are. We pick our favourite heroes and turn a blind eye to everything they do from the moment they become our heroes. We leave them unchecked or justify their actions on the basis of a greater purpose that they are trying to achieve.

I literally saw people trying to justify the burning of King's Landing in order to spare their heroin from moral judgement. That's the danger of idolizing someone for whatever reason. You grant the person the status of immaculate hero and from that moment the person becomes unaccountable. It happened to many dictators in history. A tyrant is seldom born a tyrant. They win people's hearts and then go rogue as people support them unconditionally.

I have observed that people who didn't idolize Daenerys from season 1 could clearly see how she was slowly becoming obsessed with power and gave up support to her by season 7,  as she failed to display lenience and to rule with wisdom.

I don't know. I'd like to hear people's opinion on that. Although I feel like Dany's fans are so passionate that this might attract some angry comments.

No, we just know bad writing when we see it. 

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6 minutes ago, Mono Canalla said:

 Where did they get the gigantic Targaryen banners, so nazi-like.

The Iron-Born made it. They don't sow but they sew.

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5 minutes ago, Mono Canalla said:

<snip>In that spirit, I dislike the manipulative presentism D&D applies to her. I’m sure in the books she’d not intentionally kill so many civilians, that stinks of forced by the writers, and, come on... Daenerys doesn’t know Hitler, Goebbels, or Leni Riefenstahl. That was D&D also telling us what to think, pulling that show. Where did they get the gigantic Targaryen banners, so nazi-like. Did they ask Sansa to sew them back at Winterfell?<snip>

 

 

While Hitler at Nuremberg imagery was overwhelming, that's not all that was going on. Drogon's wings unfolding behind Dany made her extremely Satanic at a certain point during the unfolding, and the warcrys of the Dothraki, which went on in the background through pretty much the whole scene, evoke Dante:

“Here sighs and cries and shrieks of lamentation 
echoed throughout the starless air of Hell;
at first these sounds resounding made me weep:

tongues confused, a language strained in anguish
with cadences of anger, shrill outcries
and raucous groans that joined with sounds of hands,
raising a whirling storm that turns itself
forever through that air of endless black,
like grains of sand swirling when a whirlwind blows."

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, JagLover said:

First of all there is no evidence that Dany planned to "burn the world". She offered KL the chance to surrender and they turned her down and beheaded her best friend to boot. There is no evidence to suggest anything other than if the next city surrendered without a fight then she would spare them.

Secondly her motivation was to break the wheel not burn everyone. This was never fleshed out in the show (because she cannot remain a grey character after all), but this seemed likely to mean ending feudalism.

Thirdly Jon could have tried to talk with her to try and tone it down a bit, he was after all the man she supposedly loved after all. She had listened to advisors she trusted before (she no longer trusted Tyrion) and as her husband there is every chance he could have restrained her wilder impulses. This wasn't attempted and instead he just stabs her.

This is willful ignorance of the context and themes of the character and the show. Dany burned the city after it surrendered. How did you miss the whole bell part? And they have her constantly threaten to burn cities since she got her dragons. They have to keep talking her down from burning cities. 

Dany is clearly being compared to Hitler. GRRM said the Others are ice and Dany/dragons are fire. They've explicitly said that Dany is the fire equivalent of ice, the threat they didn't realize they needed to face which is just as bad as the WWs. Did you notice that Dany's ash looks like the Others' snow? There's a reason for that. Dany says that she has the 7 Kingdoms, then she says she's going to wage war to "liberate" Winterfell, Dorne, Casterly Rock, the rest of Westeros, from what? Herself? Jon holds Winterfell, and now Tyrion holds Casterly Rock. Where are they? Right beside her. So what the hell? She shows not only zero remorse or doubt, but exactly the opposite. 

I don't care what her motivation was, I only care about the result. You've seen the result. And she became the wheel, she became everything she said she didn't want to become. Queen of the Ashes among other things. She thinks it's awesome and let's do it again and again. If Dany is the fire to the Others' ice, burning the world is what's coming. If she was really interested in liberating people, she'd be in Essos where people are literal slaves and where the previous places she liberated are falling back into slavery. But she's in Westeros where there aren't slaves. 

Jon did try to talk to her. Several times. And seriously, "tone it down a bit?" 

If I was a messianic and homicidal fascist and I needed people who would accept the flimsiest propaganda excuses for the horrid deeds I wanted to do, a particular subset of Dany fans would be the first place I'd look. 

 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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37 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

While Hitler at Nuremberg imagery was overwhelming, that's not all that was going on. Drogon's wings unfolding behind Dany made her extremely Satanic at a certain point during the unfolding, and the warcrys of the Dothraki, which went on in the background through pretty much the whole scene, evoke Dante

All that was missing was Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor

Nice Dante catch. I'd go a step further and say it evoked Medusa over the gates of Dis 

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5 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

To put it more simply, if they were able to tell the story properly, then they wouldn't need her to fly back to Dragonstone between episodes to change into all black, wash the smoke off her face, fly back to KL and have the whole 'dragon wings unfold on either side of her kitsch scene while walking to address her troops.

With good writing, we would already have known clearly [...] The reactions seem to be based on the gruesome visuals, or the readers/watchers focused on evidence of her violence from Essos (directed against oppressors, but sometimes a little bit indiscriminately)

[...]

If you told the story well, you don't retconning.

You don't need to explain what happened in Inside the Epidode.

And you don't need to throw so many different things at the character to see what sticks.

You just suck as show runners/writers period.

Looking forward to George's tale. I'm sure that's going to be a fascinating tragic story arc.

 

 

 

Thank you, Ser Hedge! It just clicked in my head and cleared at least a bit of the confusion I still feel - They indeed just LACK the basic writing tools to differentiate between brutality and madness - Brutal, ruthless has always been part of Dany, *madness* would have had to be shown differently. And I just cannot believe how terrible lacking in everything the writing has turned out to be after being mediocre with some good and some bad moments over the past few seasons.

They wanted to show her going mad and all they had in their little arsenal that they could associate with madness was brutality - and that's something most other characters have also shown over the years. In retrospect it already puts some of the scenes in the books in a different light, especially that last one in ADWD, when she "talks to ghosts". There's hope. Still, tWOW will be a book I'll borrow from a friend or library first - I've become distrusting.

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Posted (edited)

I think the motivation is important, although I’m not saying the why can redime her, not at all. Is she looking to liberate people the same way she liberated slaves? That resonates with her difficult early life as she had to run away and run around with the “beggar king” because of powerful men? 

I’d still see echoes of the French Revolution in this, but as in both Winterfell and Dragonstone she spent time with lords and people of rank and never been seen talking with plain people, servants or civilians, or plain soldiers, she never asked how are they, how are they holding up. And now suddenly she wants to save them from... her own friends? (She does mention “from Dorne to Winterfell”). 

Edited by Mono Canalla

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9 minutes ago, Davidlopan said:

All that was missing was Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor

<snip>

OK, now I'm going to crank that up on the stereo and watch the scene again with the sound turned down. :P Cheers!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Dany is clearly being compared to Hitler.

OMG:bawl: 

A Hitler without the cult of personality, without the hate of other cultures, without the Lebensraum, without the racial delirium, without the Party, et. etc. Dany's journey has nothing to do with Hitler's. You just won a Godwin Point.

Edited by Nowy Tends

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41 minutes ago, Davidlopan said:

All that was missing was Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor

Rather O Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, 1st song of Carl Orff's Carmina Burana.

Or Tannhäuser's Overture…

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2 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

OMG:bawl: 

A Hitler without the cult of personality, without the hate of other cultures, without the Lebensraum, without the racial delirium, without the Party, et. etc. Dany's journey has nothing to do with Hitler's. You just won a Godwin Point.

Is this the first time you've heard this comparison? Because it's all over the place. The comparison is intentional from the showrunners and Emilia Clarke hence why so many are going there.

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a27553545/emilia-clarke-daenerys-hitler-speech-prep/

The lack of perfect parallels doesn't invalidate comparisons. ASOIAF is full of imperfect parallels. They still hold. 

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37 minutes ago, Mono Canalla said:

 

37 minutes ago, Mono Canalla said:

I’d still see echoes of the French Revolution in this, but as in both Winterfell and Dragonstone she spent time with lords and people of rank and never been seen talking with plain people, servants or civilians, or plain soldiers, she never asked how are they, how are they holding up. And now suddenly she wants to save them from... her own friends? (She does mention “from Dorne to Winterfell”). 

Good point!   Margery was good at winning over the smallfolk by visiting the poor, disadvantaged, and talking to the children.  We never saw Daenerys attempting this in Westeros.  

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4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Is this the first time you've heard this comparison? Because it's all over the place. The comparison is intentional from the showrunners and Emilia Clarke hence why so many are going there.

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a27553545/emilia-clarke-daenerys-hitler-speech-prep/

The lack of perfect parallels doesn't invalidate comparisons. ASOIAF is full of imperfect parallels. They still hold. 

I get the power of the imagery. 

But in the end it's the same. Show, not tell. 

They made a nazi rally without the content. Compare to V for Vendetta and the regime there.

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7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Is this the first time you've heard this comparison? Because it's all over the place. The comparison is intentional from the showrunners and Emilia Clarke hence why so many are going there.

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a27553545/emilia-clarke-daenerys-hitler-speech-prep/

If you think the showrunners know anything about History, you haven't been paying attention. 

(damn, I HATE this quote now).

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Just now, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I get the power of the imagery. 

But in the end it's the same. Show, not tell. 

They made a nazi rally without the content. Compare to V for Vendetta and the regime there.

You'll never hear me argue that anything relating to Dany's turn isn't terrible. But what's there is there. It was world conquest with endless innocent deaths laced together with a messianic narrative. They gave themselves only minutes to get across where Dany was headed and there was no room for anything but anvil-upside-the-head obviousness. 

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