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Demetri

GRRM's (Brief) Thoughts on the Final Episode

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I wonder how you must have felt realizing Sansa is permanently separated from her surviving family and friends and will be alone forever. Not great, I’m guessing. :)

I’m feeling pretty great about never having to listen to another shipper insist that Jonsa or SanSan is endgame ever again. Thank God. 

If we’re going by that they’re all separated, so I don’t see your point. And she’s also in her family home, surrounded by her people. I don’t think she’ll be alone.

 I’m feeling pretty great. She ended up ruling the North. I’m just happy I won’t have to listen to some saying she’s of no importance/she will die in season 6/7/8. Funny how things are, right?

Edited by Alayne's Shadow.

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It is possible to just separate the books and the show and enjoy both if you so choose. The books will tell one story, and the show told another version of it. If the broad strokes are supposed to be the same, there is already so much deviated that it shouldn't be that difficult to realize things will be different and to just move on with life. IMO that is kind of the gist GRRM is going for in his statements. I look at them as separate entities, one is done, and hopefully the other gets done. The sun came up Monday morning after the finale, so life is good.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

If we’re going by that they’re all separated, so I don’t see your point. And she’s also in her family home, surrounded by her people. I don’t think she’ll be alone.

No family. They couldn't even be bothered to stick around for her coronation. No friends, either, with the one person she could possibly label a friend, Brienne, upgrading to the Kingsguard (and also not sticking around for her coronation). So yes, she is alone for all intents and purposes, much like Cersei was alone at her coronation. She even ended up with a crown that resembles Cersei's from the back (as there was a similar shot of the backs of Cersei and Sansa's heads as they are crowned).

Going back on topic, GRRM isn't really saying anything in this new blog post that he hasn't already said. Even "How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have?" is something he has said previously. 

Edited by Newstar

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I'm really wondering whether the endgame was indeed the one intended by GRRM... It's been about seven years since I reread the books, so I've sort of forgotten the feeling of the books. Is it true, then, that GRRM had revealed to D&D how it would end? Or was it only who would rule? Or that Dany would perish?

Regardless, I try to see myself in a potential future where I'm reading the last book of ASoIaF, and the main decisive moments of the show's last episodes are the same. Let's say we've got amazing character development, amazing main stories, details, side stories, expanded lore, and so on, will I be able to feel the same as I did when I first read the Red Wedding? Gasping, in pure shock, had to put down the book, needed a few hours break before continuing haha. Somehow, I hope that the final plot points will be changed... Because I still want that surprise, the feeling you get when it's just you and the book, and not the whole world has already seen it happen in the show. 

If the endgame moments are exactly the same (Bran, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Arya), despite stellar journeys to those points, I wonder if it was a mistake to spill the beans to D&D. Here's to hoping that the characters that didn't make it into the show will alter the course of ASoIaF history so that we can still be awed by GRRM's amazing creativity, imagination and world-building.

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

That, I think, is not the point George is trying to make. Sure, Game of Thrones and ASOIAF differ. They have to. The damn books are not out yet (and it is for once not D&D's fault, mind you), they must differ. What he says is, that it is the wrong question to ask, which version is the true one. Since none of the storys is real, you can argue all day long. You won't have an objective answer. Because they differ, all it matters is how people view what is the "right" version. Friends of mine have never read ASOIAF, yet they have lived with Kit Harringtons character of Jon Snow for over 8 years. They have emotions for those characters and have shed tears through his journey. For them, he is real. For them he is Jon Snow. Does this make Jon Snow from the show not real? There are more show watchers than book readers. It is a nonsensiqual question.  For George, Jon Snow is the boy, he has in his head, for my best friend, who has never read the books, it is Kit Harringtons "Jon Snow". Same goes for the story of course. I can not tell you, which story is the real one, and nor can George. It is the story you have in your head. Both storys are out there. Both storys are in the mind of people. Both storys are just as real as the other. That is, what Georges statement is all about. 

Here George is hiding, too, actually. Because there is no question what the correct/real version of 'Hamlet' is, no? The one written and authorized by William Shakespeare, no? Not the Mel Gibson movie, not the Kenneth Branagh movie, not any of the stage play versions, etc. 

Or take 'The Lord of the Rings'. Are Tolkien's books the true story or the Bakshi movie or the Jackson movies? The answer is obvious - and it is obvious in the cases where movie adaptations became more famous than the original work (which can be said for quite a few adaptations Kubrick made).

One can dodge or ignore that question, one can dismiss it as this all being versions of the same thing without judging content or quality, but if one wants to actually discuss the virtue of those things, if one wants to compare the characters and plots depicted in those different 'versions of the same thing', then one has to ask that question.

And this is no longer a rather silly question of 'what actually happens to this or that character in the books', it is also a question whether the show did - on the level of mere content, plot, characterization, etc. - justice to the work it adapted. Because as an adaptation it is just a derivative work of art. It does not stand on its own merit because it doesn't present an original story.

Sure, you can make a lot of artistic choices how to adapt 'Hamlet'. But the criteria whether your adaptation is good or bad in the bottle down to a rather simple thing: Did you actually tell William Shakespeare's story or not. And I'd say that the show pretty much failed to do that for ASoIaF.

The question whether people reading/watching only one version of the story have an emotional connection to thing or not don't really matter. Of course there are differences on that level, too. But they are irrelevant when discussing the merits of adaptations. It is rather childish to even discuss which version of a fictional character is 'the real one'. It is not even remotely childish to actually discuss the artistic qualities of art, adaptations, etc.

Although I must say that I've a real problem seeing the show guys as 'proper characters'. They are written so inconsistently and the world is presented in such an incoherent way that I cannot take it seriously the way I take other TV shows that had a better writing staff (and Stephen King be damned, Kubrick's version is better than his own).

I understand why people formed an emotional connection with those 'characters' - that goes back, I'd say, to the early seasons where the characters were more or less the same characters George created. I'm pretty sure if the show had started with as great and convincing a plot line as the wight hunt I guess most viewers wouldn't exactly have formed an emotional connection with those characters, no?

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9 hours ago, Demetri said:

Additionally, the same guy who might actually intend to say "they're fictional, who cares?" has said time and time again that these characters are part of him and are kind of a living, breathing aspect of his psyche. When discussing the selection of actors and actresses and asked if those selections have changed his personal perception of those characters he has always, without hesitation said no. He's always given the actors/actresses their due as talented, but he always says something like "they're part of it."

I disagree with the idea that Martin is saying that his characters are fictional and thus their fates don't matter. That's not how I've ever seen him treat characters and that isn't consistent with what seems like heartfelt sentiments about how characters despite the fact that he obviously knows they're fictional and he's driving the sleigh. When asked if he enjoyed killing his characters he said "No, I don't. I do think it needs to be done. Valar Morghulis, all men must die. It is a part of life and all art must reflect life." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cspPt3-PFjw

Well, it is quite clear he emotionally distanced himself from the show as soon as it was starting to really butchering his own story. He no longer wrote scripts - which he most definitely would have continued to do if he had wanted to do that. They changed the writing of the credits from 'Written by [insert hack]' to 'Written for television by [insert hack]' at one point during production. (Was it season 5? I don't recall. Anybody still re-watching the stuff can look it up.)

As I said somewhere earlier, I actually pity the man. Yes, he got fabulously rich over this, and one hopes he can enjoy the good aspects of that lifestyle especially considering his upbringing (although I doubt he really enjoys the entire celebrity aspect of it), but if you look at the quality of his story and what this TV show could have been in light of the production values, budget, and number of episodes they had (or could have had) it must really be heartbreaking. It is like knowing you could get a Porsche - and expecting one - and then people give you a battered, old VW Beetle.

If that also comes with a shit load of money you cannot really complain - and that's clearly the reason why George doesn't publicly complain - because anybody would look kind of hypocritical complaining about something that made him a really, really wealthy man.

But on the artistic level he still got fucked. And that must hurt on some level if what he tells us about the importance of his characters and stories is true. And I certainly believe that since he really has invested thirty years of his writing career in that story.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is quite clear he emotionally distanced himself from the show as soon as it was starting to really butchering his own story. He no longer wrote scripts - which he most definitely would have continued to do if he had wanted to do that. They changed the writing of the credits from 'Written by [insert hack]' to 'Written for television by [insert hack]' at one point during production. (Was it season 5? I don't recall. Anybody still re-watching the stuff can look it up.)

As I said somewhere earlier, I actually pity the man. Yes, he got fabulously rich over this, and one hopes he can enjoy the good aspects of that lifestyle especially considering his upbringing (although I doubt he really enjoys the entire celebrity aspect of it), but if you look at the quality of his story and what this TV show could have been in light of the production values, budget, and number of episodes they had (or could have had) it must really be heartbreaking. It is like knowing you could get a Porsche - and expecting one - and then people give you a battered, old VW Beetle.

If that also comes with a shit load of money you cannot really complain - and that's clearly the reason why George doesn't publicly complain - because anybody would look kind of hypocritical complaining about something that made him a really, really wealthy man.

But on the artistic level he still got fucked. And that must hurt on some level if what he tells us about the importance of his characters and stories is true. And I certainly believe that since he really has invested thirty years of his writing career in that story.

I am not really in the mood to start a discussion about that. But I will definitively not pitty GRRM. He had 8 years of finishing one (!!!) novel, and he hasn't. D&D (say whatever you want about them, that hasn't been said about them already) never took his story to finish it for him, nor is it fair to expect from them to do so, or even delivering the quality that GRRM might deliver. When they ran out of book material, is when the quality droped significantly. They can not finish a story, that even the author isn't able to do. Tolkien wouldnt give a Hollywood guy LotR after he just finished "The Fellowship" and get disapointed if that guy doesn't deliver the same quality as Tolkien. That is an impossible task. The only people I pitty, are the bookfans. They have been very suportive for a guy, who, in my opinion, doesn't deserve it in that magnitude. The fans right now are fighting his battles. The show-only viewers got their ending. Some of them are angry some of them are happy. But they have an ending. The bookfans are fighting a hypothetically battle, about something that does not even exist. And yet, they are fighting. I pitty them. Not GRRM. 

To complete your metaphor: GRRM should by his own Posche and not expecting it from someone else. 

This is not an excuse for D&D being shitty writers. But GRRM isn't the guy you should pitty.

Edited by T and A

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Am I the only one who reads this part of his Notablog and think, holy shit this guy has A LOT more going on. When is he going to write?

"And me?  I’m still here, and I’m still busy.    As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel.   I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others.   There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced.   I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan.   And then there’s Meow Wolf…"

 

5 TV shows, more non ASoIaF books, short films, and a video game. He couldn't find time to write with 1 TV show and a tour schedule. 

In case anyone forgot, Dance With Dragons was published 3 months after the FIRST EPISODE of GoT came out. So basically after S1 had aired. 8 Years ago I had hope that he would write at least 1 book before the end of the show, and was optimistic that he would finish both. 

I was hopeful that Martin would want to finish his Magnum Opus and leave a legacy on history (much like Tywin) but alas its unlikely to happen. 

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9 minutes ago, Dynas said:

Am I the only one who reads this part of his Notablog and think, holy shit this guy has A LOT more going on. When is he going to write?

"And me?  I’m still here, and I’m still busy.    As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel.   I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others.   There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced.   I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan.   And then there’s Meow Wolf…"

 

5 TV shows, more non ASoIaF books, short films, and a video game. He couldn't find time to write with 1 TV show and a tour schedule. 

I don't know it makes me feel like Winds is almost done and it's in the editing process.

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4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't know it makes me feel like Winds is almost done and it's in the editing process.

This was my feeling as well. Fingers crossed!

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1 hour ago, TNTW said:

This was my feeling as well. Fingers crossed!

He posted that today in his notablog:

"But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done.   Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine." 

So...who is going to take pictures from him in that small cabin on White Island next year? Anyone? 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 8:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Prince Aegon simply isn't a pretender king yet. He is just a prince, a person poised to claim a throne, but somebody who has yet to reveal and declare himself. B

(...)

Many readers (me included) first read the appendices before starting with the book precisely because it is supposed not to spoil the book but only cover the events up to the beginning of the book. At least that's how it was up until ADwD.

The appendixes of ACOK included a section devoted to "The King in the Narrow Sea". Last we had heard from Stannis in AGOT, he hadn't claimed the Throne. There are plenty of other mild spoilers in the appendixes, such as Brienne being included among Renly's Rainbow Guard (she is not named until the book's chapter 22).

As I see it, Aegon will become a clear claimant the moment he sets a foot in Westeros with the Golden Company. His intentions are clearly explained in the previous book, and it shouldn't surprise anyone. But I guess we are not in agreement here... :dunno:

Edited by The hairy bear

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31 minutes ago, T and A said:

He posted that today in his notablog:

"But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done.   Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine." 

So...who is going to take pictures from him in that small cabin on White Island next year? Anyone? 

So, he expect Winds to be out by summer 2020.  I hope so.

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13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, he expect Winds to be out by summer 2020.  I hope so.

Words are wind. I believe it first, when I see it on a bookstore.

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13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, he expect Winds to be out by summer 2020.  I hope so.

Acording to the actor that played barristan the book is already written:P

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1 minute ago, T and A said:

Words are wind. I believe it first, when I see it on a bookstore.

I agree.  It seems kind of random though that he does all these big interviews and then drops what is a pretty big bombshell, he expects Winds to be done and out by summer 2020, with not much equivocating.  

 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  It seems kind of random though that he does all these big interviews and then drops what is a pretty big bombshell, he expects Winds to be done and out by summer 2020, with not much equivocating.  

 

Funny thing, on his yesterdays post, he said he will not give a deadline regarding Winds. But this hillarious New Zeeland Airline comercial hit him too hart in his pride I guess. I just loved that Video. So good :D

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3 minutes ago, T and A said:

Funny thing, on his yesterdays post, he said he will not give a deadline regarding Winds. But this hillarious New Zeeland Airline comercial hit him too hart in his pride I guess. I just loved that Video. So good :D

I think grrm has just been desperate to talk about the books in the last months.

Between him starting to talk about winds in interviews, giving the detail about unicorns and now this it is clear something has been going on...

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

He posted that today in his notablog:

"But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done.   Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine." 

So...who is going to take pictures from him in that small cabin on White Island next year? Anyone? 

Worldcon is next summer, the summer of 2020

For him to go to a convention in New Zealand with a book in hand by summer 2020, it needs to have been published and sold in New Zealand no later than spring 2020. And yes, he can't go to a science fiction nerd convention without the book already being published in New Zealand for many reasons.

Unless The Winds of Winter is released in New Zeland first (possible but very unlikely and very odd), this tells me that the book is likely going to be done in between the fall of this year and early spring of next year.

So, yes, I'll be the one of of the ones to take pictures of him in the small cabin on White Island. I'll make sure of it.

Speaking of which, he really needs to get a new computer and a new word processor. Every time I hear about it I get super nervous that it's going to crash and he's going to lose all of his notes and work. Then again, now that I think about it...given the amount of time it's taking him to finish this book series, it's probably already happened.

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