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Demetri

GRRM's (Brief) Thoughts on the Final Episode

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http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

This blog entry was an interesting choice. Parts of it felt perfunctory, the natural byproduct of the end of an era via the shows. However. Parts of it certainly stand out and are worth a look.

First is perhaps the most stark example of GRRM spoiling his future material ever. " I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner?  I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was.   Fortunately, they did."

GRRM might be tricky, but he naturally draws a line between outright lying and general deception. If R+L=/=J then this would be basically a complete lie. But furthermore, he is being unnaturally candid in this statement. For those who enjoy some SSM, this is even more confirmatory than even minor things in the past. My read is that he is overtly acknowledging the legitimacy of this aspect of the show as it relates to book canon.

Second, his overall take and the neverending question of endings. Martin says that "Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?"

Personally, I find that unsatisfying. The amount of children that Scarlett O'Hara had was not material to outcome of the story, the ending. If the number of children was absolutely essential, then it would be a primary point of distinction between the story told, not a detail that varied due to the medium. I'm afraid of this answer, to be honest. To me, this suggests strong confirmation that the broad strokes will remain the same and that the show canon was basically a true telling but relatively minor details such as the number of Scarlett's children differ. It both confirms that his book will be a different thing and concedes that O'hara is definitely in the story.

There are a few digressions in GRRM's blog post as always. I thought it was a sweet and somewhat heartfelt post but clearly premeditated. Call it wishful thinking, but I almost sense a renewed desire to make the books a manifested thing. This seems like a throwaway, but I think that GRRM meant more than that: "How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet."

Let's hope we get to take him up on his offer quite quickly.

 

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16 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Second, his overall take and the neverending question of endings. Martin says that "Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?"

Personally, I find that unsatisfying. The amount of children that Scarlett O'Hara had was not material to outcome of the story, the ending. If the number of children was absolutely essential, then it would be a primary point of distinction between the story told, not a detail that varied due to the medium. I'm afraid of this answer, to be honest. To me, this suggests strong confirmation that the broad strokes will remain the same and that the show canon was basically a true telling but relatively minor details such as the number of Scarlett's children differ. It both confirms that his book will be a different thing and concedes that O'hara is definitely in the story.

That's just an argument he's been using since the earlier season, though. He's only echoing it now. I think this part should be more telling:

Quote

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

It sounds to me like there will be a lot of interwoven similarities and differences. And maybe George doesn't want to give too many details in order to preserve whatever his surprises he has left. He's even a little ambivalent on which of the two questions he is answering...

I tend to go back to the Sansa & Ramsay story line. That's a plot beat from book, but it got assigned to a different character. Is it the same? Well, it's the same for Theon, whose PoV the story comes from. Politically speaking it's kind of the same, the Boltons use a presumed Stark bride to consolidate power. As a reader you do have a similar experience empathizing with a young girl who is being victimized.., But when it comes to Sansa, it's as different as it can get. How would you answer the question without giving away the plot lines involved?

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4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

That's just an argument he's been using since the earlier season, though. He's only echoing it now. I think this part should be more telling:

It sounds to me like there will be a lot of interwoven similarities and differences. And maybe George doesn't want to give too many details in order to preserve whatever his surprises he has left. He's even a little ambivalent on which of the two questions he is answering...

I tend to go back to the Sansa & Ramsay story line. That's a plot beat from book, but it got assigned to a different character. Is it the same? Well, it's the same for Theon, whose PoV the story comes from. Politically speaking it's kind of the same, the Boltons use a presumed Stark bride to consolidate power. As a reader you do have a similar experience empathizing with a young girl who is being victimized.., But when it comes to Sansa, it's as different as it can get. How would you answer the question without giving away the plot lines involved?

I've heard him use the O'Hara example way before this season. In fact, he used it ages and ages ago especially when the show first started. I should have said that I find it particularly unsatisfactory here because we aren't dealing with Jeyne v. Sansa but the entire ending. If the ending of "Gone with the Wind" hinged largely on how many children O'Hara had then that discrepancy ceases to be immaterial to the ending but, instead, the meat of it. I know it's an old hat statement by GRRM, but I find it being repeated here to be fairly disturbing for those hoping for a substantially different ending than the show gave us.

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1 minute ago, Demetri said:

I've heard him use the O'Hara example way before this season. In fact, he used it ages and ages ago especially when the show first started. I should have said that I find it particularly unsatisfactory here because we aren't dealing with Jeyne v. Sansa but the entire ending. If the ending of "Gone with the Wind" hinged largely on how many children O'Hara had then that discrepancy ceases to be immaterial to the ending but, instead, the meat of it. I know it's an old hat statement by GRRM, but I find it being repeated here to be fairly disturbing for those hoping for a substantially different ending than the show gave us.

And I think you may be putting too much weight on it. George likes to call back to his good lines. This is probably no different.

I think the best thing we can do now is try to identify what story lines they merged and work out what that might mean for the plot from there. There is another thread on what the show means for the book plot where I went into more detail on that. Maybe some of the ideas there will give you some hope?

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Posted (edited)

In this story Scarlet's children all turned out to be feeble-minded.

Ending is accomplished mockingly bad with huge logical inconsistencies (Elrond's council ripoff is especially jarringly bad) and it doesn't even hold up to standard of later seasons let alone first four or books. 

Love is the death of duty and Martin seems to love the people who cooperated with him in making his work known wide world.

 He names d&d and Cogman three heads of the dragon, subtle nod to their value or becoming delusional villains if the holy shit moments appear in the books ( We bigger scorpions  Ullers!).

Edited by Eltharion21

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Posted (edited)

Seriously, this "Scarlett's kids" line annoys me to no end. 

Scarlett's elder kids meant nothing for her story. She could have no kids before Bonnie, she could have ten kids before Bonnie - only Bonnie was important for her and for the story (and story's ending). Wade and Ella add to the story less than effing horse which took her to Tarah. 

Edited by DanaKz

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Posted (edited)

Some endpoints may be the same, but the journey and context will be radically different. Sansa ruling the North might come to pass. But King Bran's smallcouncil is absurd as is the whole election thing. 

Jon having to kill Dany would reflect the Azor Ahai prophecy where he has to kill Nissa Nissa, his wife, so I could see this being in there somewhere. It actually has some connection to Martin's short story In the Lost Lands, where Grey Alys must slay a man-werewolf she falls in love with. 

I feel that likely Dany may have to sacrifice herself, or be sacrificed, to help defeat the Others, who I strongly suspect will be a greater and more prolonged threat in the books. There'll be no east out with the Night King, I suspect if there is a way to stop them in totality, it'll reflect Tolkien more: in LOTR dropping the ring into the fires of Orodruin is no easy feat, it is a long arduous journey, that injures Frodo several times, and which he ultimately fails. Frodo is psychologically traumatized by his task; Show Arya is just BADASS and fine: all those murders, cruelty and what not are just fine, apparently.  In any case, I imagine they'll make it down to the Harrenhal-area at least, with King's Landing having already been destroyed, or badly damaged up, in the war with Aegon and Dany. Cersei and Jaime will die, but I suspect Cersei at Jaime's hands. 

Edited by Ser Drewy
typo

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I'm very intrigued that he refers to Young Griff as "Aegon VI".  I take this as his defeating Cersei/Tommen and ascending the Iron Throne, which is what I'm hoping for.  Cersei vastly outstayed her story-worthiness for me on the show.  And it makes sense that the Dance of Dragons will be Aegon and Daenerys.  It was a horrible fudge on the show.

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12 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I'm very intrigued that he refers to Young Griff as "Aegon VI".  I take this as his defeating Cersei/Tommen and ascending the Iron Throne, which is what I'm hoping for.  Cersei vastly outstayed her story-worthiness for me on the show.  And it makes sense that the Dance of Dragons will be Aegon and Daenerys.  It was a horrible fudge on the show.

I think most people expect Aegon to defeat cersei pretty fast in winds. However I don t know if she will die that soon… And good catch with the IV. Maybe grrm accidently gave away that detail...

And I think the dance with dragons will be Aegon, danny and jon. That the 3 will be the leaders of 3 factions in westeros...

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I read what Martin writes and i get the feeling that after he received the enormous paycheck and became a world known celebrity, he has lost the passion and will to finish the books. He is involved in to many things for his age. I am afraid that we will either not get the books or the quality will be decreased. I hope i am wrong.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

I'm very intrigued that he refers to Young Griff as "Aegon VI".  I take this as his defeating Cersei/Tommen and ascending the Iron Throne, which is what I'm hoping for.  Cersei vastly outstayed her story-worthiness for me on the show.  And it makes sense that the Dance of Dragons will be Aegon and Daenerys.  It was a horrible fudge on the show.

Yeah they clearly gave her part of his story, even gave her the golden company. I've been thinking the valonqar would be Aegon. Plus, he deserves killing the Mountain far more than the Hound or Arya. Would make sense for Dany to use force to take KL and submit people if they have a king they love.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

I'm very intrigued that he refers to Young Griff as "Aegon VI".  I take this as his defeating Cersei/Tommen and ascending the Iron Throne, which is what I'm hoping for.

I don't think that Martin using "Aegon VI" merits this conclusion. Pretenders always use the numeral that would correspond them, and within Martin's world Viserys also styled himself "Viserys III".

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7 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

And I think you may be putting too much weight on it. George likes to call back to his good lines. This is probably no different.

I think the best thing we can do now is try to identify what story lines they merged and work out what that might mean for the plot from there. There is another thread on what the show means for the book plot where I went into more detail on that. Maybe some of the ideas there will give you some hope?

He only mentions by name secondary characters in that post.  Penny.  Darkstar.  Arianne.  He makes no mention at all of major plots or major characters, which suggest to me that the show ended exactly how both showrunner and George always said it would...hitting the same major story points, and the same ends for the major characters with differences in the 'story' of how they got to the end.  And endings can diverge for secondary characters.

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9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He only mentions by name secondary characters in that post.  Penny.  Darkstar.  Arianne.  He makes no mention at all of major plots or major characters, which suggest to me that the show ended exactly how both showrunner and George always said it would...hitting the same major story points, and the same ends for the major characters with differences in the 'story' of how they got to the end.  And endings can diverge for secondary characters.

But he did say there would be diferences between the ends. Not just a diferent journey but actual diferences. It is more that he has said before…

 

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12 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think that Martin using "Aegon VI" merits this conclusion. Pretenders always use the numeral that would correspond them, and within Martin's world Viserys also styled himself "Viserys III".

Except that "Aegon VI" isn't how he's styled in the currently published books - he's Prince Aegon, which is right as, historically, heirs don't get a regnal number until they become a monarch - Aegon has yet to win the throne.

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Just now, divica said:

But he did say there would be diferences between the ends. Not just a diferent journey but actual diferences. It is more that he has said before…

 

Did he?  I mean, what is yes and no and yes and no and yes and no other than equivocating, game playing?  We have always known, since at least season 2 when the show added "Talisa" that there would be differences for the secondary characters.  

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Did he?  I mean, what is yes and no and yes and no and yes and no other than equivocating, game playing?  We have always known, since at least season 2 when the show added "Talisa" that there would be differences for the secondary characters.  

But the final eps didn t really have a lot of secondary characters. It was basically tormund, pod and bronn. The others were all pov characters.

In order for there to be diferences some of these pov characters need to have a diferent ending no? And there is also how the public reacts to this end. He doesn t live under a rock… 

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18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He only mentions by name secondary characters in that post.  Penny.  Darkstar.  Arianne. 

The characters he mentions by name are the ones who never made it into the show. He's being vague about everything else.

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Just now, divica said:

But the final eps didn t really have a lot of secondary characters. It was basically tormund, pod and bronn. The others were all pov characters.

In order for there to be diferences some of these pov characters need to have a diferent ending no? And there is also how the public reacts to this end. He doesn t live under a rock… 

He only mentions the secondary characters in the blog having different stories, so there is  no reason to believe that the main POVs will have different ending, since he and D&D have always said the ending will be 'mostly' the same, and he said to 60 minutes that GOT is more faithful than 97% of adaptations, and he did the same thing in that interview, equivocates and starts talking about secondary characters......there is no reasonable way, except for wish fulfillment...to turn that into anything but that the ending is mostly the same, and the same for the main characters.  Here was his chance to make a comment on the 'ending' and he didn't.  He praises the show and comments on Penny and her pig.

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He only mentions the secondary characters in the blog having different stories, so there is  no reason to believe that the main POVs will have different ending, since he and D&D have always said the ending will be 'mostly' the same, and he said to 60 minutes that GOT is more faithful than 97% of adaptations, and he did the same thing in that interview, equivocates and starts talking about secondary characters......there is no reasonable way, except for wish fulfillment...to turn that into anything but that the ending is mostly the same, and the same for the main characters.  Here was his chance to make a comment on the 'ending' and he didn't.  He praises the show and comments on Penny and her pig.

So you believe in the end bran will be king, tyrion will be hand, sansa will be queen of a separated north, arya will go west, jon will end in the NW or break his vows to leave with the wildlings? And all other shit...

Does he expect his saga will be at the same level of tolkien with this ending?

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