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cury

Jon's first chapter

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Jon Snow’s first chapter in the first book starts like that:

“There were times-not many, but a few-when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard.”

Having watched the finale, now, I think this is a foreshadowing of his ultimate fate. He doesn't want to be a lord commander, a Stark, King of the North, Heir to the Iron Throne or King of the Seven Kingdoms, sometimes, like in the end, he is happy being just a bastard, living his life away from lord and thrones, wars and politics.

I think his fate is more bitter than sweet, cause he's lost so much and I will miss this wonderful character, but he is probably closest to being happy now.

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7 minutes ago, cury said:

Having watched the finale, now, I think this is a foreshadowing of his ultimate fate. He doesn't want to be a lord commander, a Stark, King of the North, Heir to the Iron Throne or King of the Seven Kingdoms, sometimes, like in the end, he is happy being just a bastard, living his life away from lord and thrones, wars and politics.

I think his fate is more bitter than sweet, cause he's lost so much and I will miss this wonderful character, but he is probably closest to being happy now.

Well, he always dreamed of being a Stark (a true Stark). But yes, he never showed any serious ambition to gain power, becoming Lord Commander, Lord or King. He became Lord Commander because it was his duty and because he wanted to change things for the good by letting the Wildlings south of the Wall and trying to create a small world where Wildings, Night Watch and Northern Lords can live more or less peacefully together. He rejected Stannis offer to legitimize him and making him Lord of Winter (Warden of the North and so on), because he felt and was oath-bound to the Night Watch. And he had insights into Wilding culture and appreciated a few things he learnt there.

But I don't think his fate is bitter. Yes, he didn't become king, but that was nothing he ever wanted. Instead he will live a normal life with people who respect him for who he is and what he has done. The only hardship he had to endure was killing a loved person, but that is in the past.

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14 minutes ago, Haskelltier said:

Well, he always dreamed of being a Stark (a true Stark). But yes, he never showed any serious ambition to gain power, becoming Lord Commander, Lord or King. He became Lord Commander because it was his duty and because he wanted to change things for the good by letting the Wildlings south of the Wall and trying to create a small world where Wildings, Night Watch and Northern Lords can live more or less peacefully together. He rejected Stannis offer to legitimize him and making him Lord of Winter (Warden of the North and so on), because he felt and was oath-bound to the Night Watch. And he had insights into Wilding culture and appreciated a few things he learnt there.

But I don't think his fate is bitter. Yes, he didn't become king, but that was nothing he ever wanted. Instead he will live a normal life with people who respect him for who he is and what he has done. The only hardship he had to endure was killing a loved person, but that is in the past.

Yes, I think he thought about wanting to be a Stark but he rejected Stannis' proposal. I hope that in the books Robb did legitimize him, so we can see how he feels about that. 

I said his fate is bitter I meant his love life :)  because he loved Ygritte, but she died (to some degree it was also his fault) and then, at least in the show, he loved Dany and he killed her.

And as Maester Aemon said "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing".

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1 hour ago, cury said:

Jon Snow’s first chapter in the first book starts like that:

“There were times-not many, but a few-when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard.”

Having watched the finale, now, I think this is a foreshadowing of his ultimate fate. He doesn't want to be a lord commander, a Stark, King of the North, Heir to the Iron Throne or King of the Seven Kingdoms, sometimes, like in the end, he is happy being just a bastard, living his life away from lord and thrones, wars and politics.

I think his fate is more bitter than sweet, cause he's lost so much and I will miss this wonderful character, but he is probably closest to being happy now.

 

1 hour ago, Haskelltier said:

Well, he always dreamed of being a Stark (a true Stark). But yes, he never showed any serious ambition to gain power, becoming Lord Commander, Lord or King. He became Lord Commander because it was his duty and because he wanted to change things for the good by letting the Wildlings south of the Wall and trying to create a small world where Wildings, Night Watch and Northern Lords can live more or less peacefully together. He rejected Stannis offer to legitimize him and making him Lord of Winter (Warden of the North and so on), because he felt and was oath-bound to the Night Watch. And he had insights into Wilding culture and appreciated a few things he learnt there.

But I don't think his fate is bitter. Yes, he didn't become king, but that was nothing he ever wanted. Instead he will live a normal life with people who respect him for who he is and what he has done. The only hardship he had to endure was killing a loved person, but that is in the past.

These are two of the things that are really hard to convey in the show.  Also, Jon Snow's guilt when he does desire these things.  He is a much more complex character in the books.  His ending was very bittersweet, with the only sweet being that he was free from expectations.  No more sense of duty

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Was anyone else disappointed about how big Jon’s identity reveal was built up end of Season 7 and it’s importance in Season 8? It’s a huge tension point for Jon and Dany that actually should have been a point of relief. Jon’s actually legit and has true blood family on his Targ side. When Sam tells Bran what he found, then they spill the beans to Jon, Jon to Dany, Jon to his sisters (cousins)  and then Sansa to Tyrion/Tyrion to Varys.. the tension builds up so dramatically where you feel like Westeros will finally find out who Jon really is, only for Varys’ letters to never leave Dragonstone? It just seemed like a huge letdown in the plot. Jon has been so upset by the thought of his mother abandoning him and he finds out she not only didn’t abandon him, but he’s much more important than “some bastard” — something his peers could appreciate.

It makes me think Sansa didn’t really want Jon on the throne. If she did, she would have told more people than Tyrion to have them back him specifically. The word just never really “got out” to the mass of Lords.

 

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I think thats a really nice thing about the show (and the books). I mean, we heard season-long from the prophecy of Azhor Ahai and in the end this prophecy turned out to have no meaning at all (which is very realistic, since all prophecies in real life are at best educated guesses and especially religious prophecies are in general big bullshit). And the same holds for "kings blood". Does the blood of a king make you a better ruler? No, it gives you a claim to kingship, but it doesn't guarantee in any way, that you will be good at it. And thats a big flaw of the feudal system, where not the able people become lords or kings. Instead its pure luck to have the right father/mother (nowadays we have similar problems with wealth and poverty). And I think its really good that Jon's heritage doesn't have an effect on Westeros' future politics.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

Instead he will live a normal life with people who respect him for who he is and what he has done

I believe so, too. He is a Northerner, he has friends there, they adore him as hero and probably think of him as true "King North of the Wall" soon. 

The wake feast scene clearly showed how much they adored him and this will not have changed.

Edited by Kajjo

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5 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

In the books I'd honestly be fine with Jon just going to live beyond the Wall with Val. 

I agree.

But in the shows I definitely am not with how his storyline ends.

He knows no one out there aside of Tordmund and Ghost.

 

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I've come full circle on Jon's ending.

I have to admit that at first, I was disappointed by the ending for Jon Snow.  He had gone to such great lengths to save everyone.  First the wildlings by letting them south of the wall, then the North by convincing Dany, her army and her dragons to come fight for the North, and then the rest of Westeros by killing a tyrant whom he loved.  He was willing to sacrifice himself at each turn because he knew what was right and was willing to make the tough, selfless decisions.  For this, I thought Jon deserved the crown.  He was not only the rightful heir to the throne, but he was in my mind the rightful king based solely on the actions he's taken for the realm.  This was my initial thought.

However, I've had time to digest (and re-watch) and I've thought about it more.  It's evident that Jon never wanted the crown.  So more so than deserving the crown (which he doesn't want), he deserves to be happy.  And where would Jon be happiest?  North of the wall with the wildlings that respect him and probably even love him for saving them.  He can just be free and live his life how he wants to.

So I've come to peace with Jon's ending.  This was the ending he deserved.  And because of this, I find his ending to be more sweet than bitter.

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Jon seemed to value honor and duty as much as Ned did, which makes it odd that he would refuse the crown all the way to the bitter end. Honor and duty would both direct him to accept the crown. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, A Time for Starks said:

So I've come to peace with Jon's ending.  This was the ending he deserved.  And because of this, I find his ending to be more sweet than bitter.

I’m going with the Jon stays at the wall. Where he can be a liaison of sorts to both Norths. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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8 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I’m going with the Jon stays at the wall.

He left with the free folk. He decided to do so. 

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3 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I like I said I think he stays. It was left open ended. 

Not really. The Gate closes behind him, he glances back. The music becomes upbeat. Future ahead.

No reason at all to ride with the free folk in that moment if he was to stay in the Night's Watch.

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Not really. The Gate closes behind him, he glances back. The music becomes upbeat. Future ahead.

No reason at all to ride with the free folk in that moment if he was to stay in the Night's Watch.

The Gate would always close behind him even if he isn’t with the free folk. If you want to see that it makes sense. I don’t see that. Jon is going back that’s his home now. 

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When Jon was going away with the wildlings, and turned to look at the gate, after that he smiled, just a bit. Which can mean, that the Night Watchers let him to the other side, under pretense, that he is just going to escort freefolk part of the way, to wherever they are going, but he wasn't going to ever go back to The Wall, he planned to leave with the wildlings for good. That's the meaning of his smile. That they (Night Watchers) allowed him to go with the wildlings, that they are so naive, that they think that he will return. This time he gave no oath, and he is the King of 7K, not Bran. So Jon is not obliged to do what Bran (or anyone else) ordered him.

Furthermore, before Jon met Dany, he had already loved once. Ygritte died, Dany died, but he can find someone else to love. Furthermore, I'm not entirely against a possibility, that eventually Jon will hook up either with Sansa or Arya (at some point GRRM did planned for Jon+Arya to happen in the books).

After Jon had found out, that Dany is his aunt, he couldn't even kiss with her, because he was raised in The North, and by their standarts, aunt+nephew is considered to be incest. Though first cousins, as husband and wife, are not. There's plenty of Stark first cousins, that married, for example - Rickard Stark (father of Ned and Lyanna) was married with his cousin, Lyarra Stark; other Starks were marrying with their cousins from Karstark House, etc. So Arya+Jon, or Sansa+Jon is not something impossible.

It always looked to me, that Sansa's feelings towards Jon and his relationship with Dany, didn't looked like a simple dissaproval of a caring sister, for a bad choice of a partner, made by her brother. It looked more like Sansa was jealous of Dany's relationship with Jon, as a woman, not as a sister. Now The North is independent and The Wall is in The North, and Sansa is the Queen in The North. So if she will want Jon, she can have him. There's no more Night's Watch as an organisation, it's just a place for people, that don't fit with the rest of society. Nothing and no one stops Jon from leaving. He gave no oath, to take no crowns, to father no children, etc. So either Sansa will propose him to marry, or Arya will eventually return to Westeros, and when she will visit Jon, she will stay with him and his freefolk, or he will leave Westeros, and will go to travel with her.

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