International Thread 3

[DireWolfSpirit]

On 8/14/2019 at 1:53 PM, larrytheimp said:

Was that the 2017 one?

A new article on the explosion(s). Apparently there were 2, the Aug.8th one and another missile explosion that received much less publicity, the other non 8/8 explosion must have been less serious, anyways I thought I had heard 2 reports around that time. According to this article I was remembering correct.

Also still a lot of concerns that the 8/8 explosion was much more poisonous than is being portrayed by Russia (suspicions are that a reactor blew up). No surprise here.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russian-missile-disaster-shows-signs-nuke-reactor-blew-up-experts-2019-8

[Karneol]

The situation in Hong Kong keeps getting worse:

 

[Mladen]

So, apparently Polish government had a ceremony to mark 80 years of beginning of WW2. For some reason, they didn't find it appropriate to send Serbian government an invitation. To add on insult, they invited Croatian president and history of Croatian crimes in WW2 was well documented (I even heard that Croatian president had audacity to claim that Independent State of Croaria, basically Nazi puppet state led the antifascist fight). Serbia, as the heir of Soviet Yugoslavia had every right to be there and it is shameful that this happened.

I am not that much of a proud patriot but between having French government giving better spot to Kosovar PM than Serbian president on 100 years of ending of WW1 and now this, one has to wonder WHAT THE FUDGE have they been learning from history books.

[Karneol]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

I even heard that Croatian president had audacity to claim that Independent State of Croaria, basically Nazi puppet state led the antifascist fight

A lot of countries worked closer with the Nazis than they would like to admit 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Karneol said:

A lot of countries worked closer with the Nazis than they would like to admit 

Well, I won't deny that, but it is absolutely disgusting to offend a nation in such a way. Yugoslavia (and Serbia by extension, as its legal heir) was bombed so many times during WW2 that we have lost count. Atrocities committed over Yugoslavs, especially committed by Croatian Nazis, were well documented. Not inviting Serbia to memorial, not respecting victims is like denying what was done in WW2. It really makes me angry.

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

So, apparently Polish government had a ceremony to mark 80 years of beginning of WW2. For some reason, they didn't find it appropriate to send Serbian government an invitation. To add on insult, they invited Croatian president and history of Croatian crimes in WW2 was well documented (I even heard that Croatian president had audacity to claim that Independent State of Croaria, basically Nazi puppet state led the antifascist fight). Serbia, as the heir of Soviet Yugoslavia had every right to be there and it is shameful that this happened.

I am not that much of a proud patriot but between having French government giving better spot to Kosovar PM than Serbian president on 100 years of ending of WW1 and now this, one has to wonder WHAT THE FUDGE have they been learning from history books.

Well, Russia didn't get invited either, and that clearly has to do with Russia's current regime rather than anything they did in WWII.  (Also, if you wanna have a laugh, take a look at these responses from Russian officials to the snub.)  I don't know much about contemporary Serbian politics, but I'm pretty sure the current regime has pretty close ties to Putin and has since Putin took power, no?  I suspect their snub has more to do with that than anything about what happened in WWII.

[Altherion]

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, Russia didn't get invited either, and that clearly has to do with Russia's current regime rather than anything they did in WWII.

Actually, inviting Russia to the Polish ceremony would be rather awkward given that the anniversary in question was directly enabled by a pact between Germany and the legal predecessor of Russia (the USSR) and in fact the latter also invaded Poland two weeks later. The Poles must be glad to have an excuse not to invite them.

39 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't know much about contemporary Serbian politics, but I'm pretty sure the current regime has pretty close ties to Putin and has since Putin took power, no?

Not particularly. Serbia has been an ally of Russia for a very long time (recall how WWI started) and they still have good relations, but keep in mind that the Serbs are currently trying to join the EU. There's no obvious reason for Poland to have acted as they did; that's why the Serbs are so angry.

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Actually, inviting Russia to the Polish ceremony would be rather awkward given that the anniversary in question was directly enabled by a pact between Germany and the legal predecessor of Russia (the USSR) and in fact the latter also invaded Poland two weeks later. The Poles must be glad to have an excuse not to invite them.

Putin attended the 70th anniversary in 2009.  This is plainly about the souring of relations, not Russia's role in WWII.

17 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Not particularly. Serbia has been an ally of Russia for a very long time (recall how WWI started) and they still have good relations, but keep in mind that the Serbs are currently trying to join the EU.

Well, no, a quick google shows the current closeness between Russia and Serbia really blossomed in the early 2000s, or right when Putin took power.  Also, Serbia is one of the few (geographically) obvious candidates of the Three Seas Initiative that President Dude spearheaded along with the Croatian president (which would be why they were invited) this is not a member.

To nobody's surprise, this is all about current politics and nothing to do with what actually happened in WWII.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Well, Russia didn't get invited either, and that clearly has to do with Russia's current regime rather than anything they did in WWII.  (Also, if you wanna have a laugh, take a look at these responses from Russian officials to the snub.)  I don't know much about contemporary Serbian politics, but I'm pretty sure the current regime has pretty close ties to Putin and has since Putin took power, no?  I suspect their snub has more to do with that than anything about what happened in WWII.

Close ties? Not really. Russia has always been a popular "big bro" here and Putin's defense of Serbia's territorial integrity does give him n.1 spot among international politicians in Serbia, but Serbia does want to join EU.

Yeah, I understand that ties between Serbia and Russia are the cause, but you have Montenegro invited who is basically dependent on Russian tourists and their capital. 

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, no, a quick google shows the current closeness between Russia and Serbia really blossomed in the early 2000s, or right when Putin took power.  Also, Serbia is one of the few (geographically) obvious candidates of the Three Seas Initiative that President Dude spearheaded along with the Croatian president (which would be why they were invited) this is not a member.

To nobody's surprise, this is all about current politics and nothing to do with what actually happened in WWII.

Well, they blossomed partly because Russians were the only one protecting Serbs on Kosovo from being exiled, killed or raped after NATO bombings of 1999. They protected the churches and monasteries Kosovar Albanians were so dutiful in destroying under the very eyes of international forces.  Quick search on youtube can show you why Serbs on Kosovo are grateful to Russian soldiers. 

As I said, I understand it is about what is happening today, but nonetheless, it is disrespectful towards country who suffered the loss of 1,5 million people during that war. 

[DMC]

31 minutes ago, Risto said:

As I said, I understand it is about what is happening today, but nonetheless, it is disrespectful towards country who suffered the loss of 1,5 million people during that war.

Oh of course, I'm not defending Duda - nationalist and authoritarian right wing politicians have increasingly been politicizing WWII across Europe (including Putin, btw).  Just pointing out it has nothing to do with what happened with Serbia, Croatia, Russia, or even Germany during the war.

35 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, they blossomed partly because Russians were the only one protecting Serbs on Kosovo from being exiled, killed or raped after NATO bombings of 1999. They protected the churches and monasteries Kosovar Albanians were so dutiful in destroying under the very eyes of international forces.  Quick search on youtube can show you why Serbs on Kosovo are grateful to Russian soldiers. 

Yes, this is basically what I was saying.  Yeltsin initially tried to cooperate with the West's response to the war, and initially even were not opposed to airstrikes.  But then:

Quote

Russian diplomats even communicated to their Western counterparts that, although they would veto any U.N. Security Council resolution approving a war, they had nothing against airstrikes. As Richard Holbrooke, a U.S. diplomat, once said, “For them, it was all about respect.”

By that measure, the war was a disaster. Russian public opinion turned against the airstrikes as they targeted the capital of Russia’s Serbian ally and Russian attempts to negotiate peace were unceremoniously rejected by U.S. officials. As Yeltsin faced increasingly irate opposition in parliament, Russian officials’ rhetoric became more bitter and their behavior more obstinate. After Milosevic’s capitulation, Russian military forces violated the peace agreement by rushing into Kosovo and capturing Pristina’s airport on June 12—a move that nearly led to a direct confrontation with U.S. forces. It wasn’t clear whether Yeltsin ordered that operation—but six months later, he would resign, making way for Vladimir Putin.

Serbia is Putin's strongest European ally - by far - and just doing a few minutes of googling it's clear the current Serbian administration is criticized by many for its closeness to Putin.  Plus, it's the one country in Europe where Putin is a rock star.  Not surprising that irks Duda.

[Alarich II]

Let's face it: even Germany was invited. So yes, the current Russian agression against Ukraine, their expansion via military conquest may have something to with the omission of Russia. Serbia is simply a collateral victim of the invitation policy geared to exclude Russia without openly saying so (Only EU and NATO members).

I don't think that, in the bigger picture of this anniversary, Serbia is important enough to be the target of a deliberate slight.

[Mladen]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Oh of course, I'm not defending Duda - nationalist and authoritarian right wing politicians have increasingly been politicizing WWII across Europe (including Putin, btw).  Just pointing out it has nothing to do with what happened with Serbia, Croatia, Russia, or even Germany during the war.

You are completely right, I just feel that instead of using WW2 as something to unite us, we are now using it for daily political issue.

7 hours ago, DMC said:

Serbia is Putin's strongest European ally - by far - and just doing a few minutes of googling it's clear the current Serbian administration is criticized by many for its closeness to Putin.  Plus, it's the one country in Europe where Putin is a rock star.  Not surprising that irks Duda.

Certainly, but that is also internal affair of Serbia. You have NATO countries such as Montenegro with far greater presence of Russian capital - almost  one third of all businesses in Montenegro is Russian, and 20% of tourists (Montenegro's main source of income) are Russians.

Yes, Serbs, as I imagine many others, are not properly assessing Serbo-Russian relations and romanticize them. But, when you have testimonies of nuns thanking Russian soldiers for protecting them, one has to understand where that love comes from. That certainly doesn't mean Serbs don't have strong ties with West, as we have managed to migrate 500 000 well-educated people to Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc. But internal EU issues are also damaging those relations.

16 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

I don't think that, in the bigger picture of this anniversary, Serbia is important enough to be the target of a deliberate slight.

Certainly not. Nor do I believe that. I just feel as Polish should have been more sensitive to a country that shared the fate during WW2. 

[baxus]

8 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, they blossomed partly because Russians were the only one protecting Serbs on Kosovo from being exiled, killed or raped after NATO bombings of 1999. They protected the churches and monasteries Kosovar Albanians were so dutiful in destroying under the very eyes of international forces.

The number of Serbs exiled from Kosovo and the number of burned and destroyed churches and monasteries are a great testament to how good a job they're doing, wouldn't you agree?

[Mladen]

19 minutes ago, baxus said:

The number of Serbs exiled from Kosovo and the number of burned and destroyed churches and monasteries are a great testament to how good a job they're doing, wouldn't you agree?

You mean, Russians? Well, I have no illusions regarding them and all the help, but the situation could have been much worse.  Although my respect for church's officials has lessened over the years, they have been very vocal about the help Russians provided in 2000s. I am not buying the whole "Orthodox brethren" idea, but I have spoken with many Serbs from Kosovo and they have a lot of stories... Good and bad, sadly. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

The Hong Kong protestors have defeated Beijing, at least in the meantime. Hopefully they can push forward and get full independence.  

[Gorn]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Hong Kong protestors have defeated Beijing, at least in the meantime. Hopefully they can push forward and get full independence.  

What would be a realistic path to independence for Hong Kong? I'm asking because I genuinely do not see one.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

32 minutes ago, Gorn said:

What would be a realistic path to independence for Hong Kong? I'm asking because I genuinely do not see one.

Honestly they’d probably need international support while offering some way for China to transition into having its own financial super hub. It certainly won’t be easy, but I think recent events are proving that one country, two systems isn’t viable in the long run, especially as Hong Kong and Beijing move in opposite directions.

[Maithanet]

2 hours ago, Gorn said:

What would be a realistic path to independence for Hong Kong? I'm asking because I genuinely do not see one.

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Honestly they’d probably need international support while offering some way for China to transition into having its own financial super hub. It certainly won’t be easy, but I think recent events are proving that one country, two systems isn’t viable in the long run, especially as Hong Kong and Beijing move in opposite directions.

Does that sound realistic to you?  It does not to me.  I think far more likely is that China backs down to some extent, waits until the timing as better, and then unleashes a powerful crackdown on Hong Kong.  And the people of HK don't have a lot of options other than to just wait until that happens. 

[Gorn]

Yeah, Hong Kong isn't Taiwan. It has no handy major sea strait to protect it, zero military power of its own, and no-one would go to war with China to protect it. You are correct that "one country, two systems" isn't viable, but it will end up as one country, one system.

I also predict that Taiwan will be taken over by China within our lifetimes, either by diplomatic means or by force.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Does that sound realistic to you?  It does not to me.  I think far more likely is that China backs down to some extent, waits until the timing as better, and then unleashes a powerful crackdown on Hong Kong.  And the people of HK don't have a lot of options other than to just wait until that happens. 

It's not realistic now, and I agree with you that there's a good chance that China lays low for the time being and then attempts to enact a massive crackdown of HK. It's at that moment in time though where it might be possible to rally international support for a clean break from the mainland. At least that's the only thing that seems feasible without having thoroughly studied the subject.