International Thread 3

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The muslim model in S.I. poses in suits both with and without, so I would say she definitely makes a personal choice. Not everyone wearing those are forced, just as not all of any religion's are fundamentalist.

What percentage of women wearing burkinis do you think have the option of wearing a bikini?

[Liffguard]

46 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Depends if you view a Burkini as a symbol of religious freedom or patriarchal oppression.

Even if you do view it as patriarchal oppression, you can't fight patriarchal oppression by passing a law telling women what they are and aren't allowed to wear.

This is the actual result of burkini bans. Armed men ganging up on a woman and forcing her to strip in public. Fighting the patriarchy.

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Even if you do view it as patriarchal oppression, you can't fight patriarchal oppression by passing a law telling women what they are and aren't allowed to wear.

This is the actual result of burkini bans. Armed men ganging up on a woman and forcing her to strip in public. Fighting the patriarchy.

“Stop resisting, you’re being liberated” 

 

24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

What percentage of women wearing burkinis do you think have the option of wearing a bikini?

So, basically you’re in favor of removing the option for women who do?

 

This is basically proving the fundamentalists right you know that right? That its ok punish women for their way of dress. 

You cannot cure someone whose been poisoned through simply offering them the same type of poison that made them sick in the first place.

You do understand if the women who truly don’t have autonomy on this will just have one more avenue of life blocked from them. They’re not going to be just allowed to wear a bikini and go. They’ll be further isolated and the chances of them feeling comfortable and safe enough to speak out diminishes. How, about simply encouraging government services to women who are abused and encouraging them to speak out rather than basically doing the same thing you suspect these communities are doing by punishing them for dressing in a certain way you think is problematic.

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Even if you do view it as patriarchal oppression, you can't fight patriarchal oppression by passing a law telling women what they are and aren't allowed to wear.

This is the actual result of burkini bans. Armed men ganging up on a woman and forcing her to strip in public. Fighting the patriarchy.

Agree it’s nonsensical. 

Fighting oppression by adding more oppression is ridiculous. However people are tying themselves in knots because they feel the need to defend a symbol of female oppression. 

[Toth]

54 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Fighting oppression by adding more oppression is ridiculous. However people are tying themselves in knots because they feel the need to defend a symbol of female oppression.

You can't just sit here and claim it is a symbol of female oppression when the purpose of covering yourself still is a hotly debated topic among Muslim scholars. I have several Turkish acquaintances, some of which wear a hijab and some of which don't. All of them are from an academic background, so doubt how representative their opinions are however you want, but each gave a different reason for why or why not they wear it, with those who do wear it associating it mostly with a sense of religious identity. I mean, I have researched myself and have read the reasoning in Koran to discourage rape-happy idiot men from harassing women because changing the men was apparently not an option, but that just shows how flexible religious interpretation gets after 1400 years of history and intermingling of cultures.

It is easy to cry out oppression when seeing a woman from another culture dressing as is considered modest in that culture, but fact is you don't know her background and shouldn't assume anything as problematic out of the blue. One of my acquaintances once told me the story of her grandmother who never in her life wore a hijab suddenly started doing so and when questioned grinned and said that she has grown too lazy to make her hair every day and it's an easy way to go out without wasting too much time in the morning. Reasonings like that exist, apparently.

Also to add to the others' reasoning if there indeed is a case of oppression happening: As a teacher I occasionally will have to deal with those households where some kind of covering is considered mandatory one way or another. Now if you want those girls to be allowed to participate in sports or events at a beach, the burkini has actually become a rather dependable thing to suggest to these parents who are driven by a fear of their daughters to walk around improperly. Better to have them join in in a silly dress than not at all.

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Agree it’s nonsensical. 

Fighting oppression by adding more oppression is ridiculous. However people are tying themselves in knots because they feel the need to defend a symbol of female oppression. 

Not so much as "tying in knots" as there being no justification for making them more oppressed. If they're in a family that doesn't care, than you're talking their choice away. If they're in a family that does, you're making it so they can't go outside.

There is no situation were this ban isn't firmly on the side of those who want to oppress women.

[Heartofice]

I dunno if we are all talking about the same thing, because a Hijab is not the same thing as a Burqa (and not the same as the Niqab), and as far as I know, nobody is calling for the hijab to be banned. 

[Toth]

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I dunno if we are all talking about the same thing, because a Hijab is not the same thing as a Burqa (and not the same as the Niqab), and as far as I know, nobody is calling for the hijab to be banned. 

And a Burqini is not a Burka either.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Not so much as "tying in knots" as there being no justification for making them more oppressed. If they're in a family that doesn't care, than you're talking their choice away. If they're in a family that does, you're making it so they can't go outside.

There is no situation were this ban isn't firmly on the side of those who want to oppress women.

Then again I imagine many proponents of this really don’t mind that.

Oppression of certain groups are only bad when when done x enemy.

For example plenty right-wingers in America  will attack the left what they perceive as a lack of silence concerning the horrific treatment of the LGBTQ in Muslim-majority countries. 

At the same time, they’ve successfully blocked measures to remove laws criminalizing homosexual activity in over 10 states.

Punishing gay people for being gay is fine-unless it’s Muslims doing it.

It’s ok for the state to punish women for the way they dress-just not Muslims. 

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

However people are tying themselves in knots because they feel the need to defend a symbol of female oppression. 

Meh, I don’t think the argument should morph into what does the burqa mean-because in the end it really doesn’t matter in this discussion. What matters is what actions could be taken that would infringe upon the rights of women. This ban certainly does.

 I’ll be honest I’ve seen more people express the reason such bans are necessary is because the clothing symbolizes female oppression.

People tend to get caught up with the importance of respecting symbols over that of respecting good ideals. 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It appear that the Lama has stepped in it bigly.

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oppression of certain groups are only bad when when done x enemy.

For example plenty right-wingers in America  will attack the left what they perceive as a lack of silence concerning the horrific treatment of the LGBTQ in Muslim-majority countries. 

At the same time, they’ve successfully blocked measures to remove laws criminalizing homosexual activity in over 10 states.

Punishing gay people for being gay is fine-unless it’s Muslims doing it.

Well you just pointed out the hypocrisy on both sides of the debate there. Both left and right have their blind spots. 

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well you just pointed out the hypocrisy on both sides of the debate there. Both left and right have their blind spots. 

Only if you actually think the left is actually being silent on LGBTQ issues in Muslim majority countries. (hint, much like when the the right asks "where are the moderate Muslims condemning terrorism", it's only silent because they're plugging their ears)

[The Anti-Targ]

16 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Depends if you view a Burkini as a symbol of religious freedom or patriarchal oppression.

That's irrelevant, since no govt/society wanting to be seen as a promoter of freedom of expression and personal choice (I assume France wants to be seen as that sort of country, but maybe not?) should be legislating what people can wear or the symbols with which they adorn themselves. At least in this the USA has got it right, wearing a Burkini would be a constitutional right there. The govts that would seek to legislate personal attire are the ones you generally denegrate (correctly) as oppressive, i.e. Saudi Arabia, The Taliban and the would be ruler of all Islam ISIS.

In claiming to be a strictly secular society, France seems intent on oppressing religious expression, and worse still oppressing certain religious expression more than others. That does not seem to me to be what a secular society should be doing.

[Heartofice]

15 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Only if you actually think the left is actually being silent on LGBTQ issues in Muslim majority countries. (hint, much like when the the right asks "where are the moderate Muslims condemning terrorism", it's only silent because they're plugging their ears)

I wouldn't say silent but I would say it could do with being a lot more vocal about it.

6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

In claiming to be a strictly secular society, France seems intent on oppressing religious expression, and worse still oppressing certain religious expression more than others. That does not seem to me to be what a secular society should be doing.

Again, its important to determine whether a Burqa or Burkini are 'symbols of religious expression' or not. Is it religious expression if NOT wearing something could mean violent beatings or death? 

I am not defending the ban at all, I think it shouldn't exist, but it puts those people who are wearing the burkini in some form of solidarity with muslims in a pretty uncomfortable position. Those people who have the lucky option of NOT wearing a Burkini or NOT wearing a Burqa or Niqab probably should be doing more to help those who don't have the same options. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

53 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Again, its important to determine whether a Burqa or Burkini are 'symbols of religious expression' or not. Is it religious expression if NOT wearing something could mean violent beatings or death? 

How many children have been beaten, cast out and ostracized for not being “proper” Christian? Should that be brought in the discussion of if any expression by Christians concerning their religion should count?  Of course not. Seriously you could  use this reasoning of “they may not actually want to do this” to basically disqualify anything from being counted as religious expression and basically the whole idea of freedom expression. 

It is religious expression until the woman says its being forced on her. That’s it. There is no argument for the opposite that respects female autonomy. 

 

53 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I am not defending the ban at all, I think it shouldn't exist, but it puts those people who are wearing the burkini in some form of solidarity with muslims in a pretty uncomfortable position. 

Then stop, drugging out arguments for why such a ban may not be a violation of women’s rights.

 

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How many children have been beaten, cast out and ostracized for not being “proper” Christian? Should that be brought in the discussion of if any expression by Christians concerning their religion should count?  Of course not. Seriously you could  use this reasoning of “they may not actually want to do this” to basically disqualify anything from being counted as religious expression and basically the whole idea of freedom

Dunno why you are playing what aboutism here but yeah the answer is that I am not aware of Christian women being beaten and mutilated for not wearing certain items of clothing. 

Are you genuinely suggesting that most Muslim women around the world could just discard their burqa in public and wear a bikini? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

58 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Dunno why you are playing what aboutism

 I’m merely trying to highlight the absurdity of your reasoning. It could literally be applied to anything by it just basically being “they may just be doing it out of fear of abuse” 

58 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

but yeah the answer is that I am not aware of Christian women being beaten and mutilated for not wearing certain items of clothing. 

First not an answer to my question. 

I asked if you thought given there have been people have who have been beaten, threatened with ostracizion, for not conforming to a familial or communal standard of what a proper Christian is should that really be relevant if any religious expression from Christians should be counted? 

I would guess not. You’d be right because you can’t tell whose being coercively doing something they didn’t want to do, or at least feels that way.

We can’t just say certain religious expressions don’t count for all because there are those  may be compelled to do it even if they have no desire. 

 And no assaults on women for their dress was never Muslim exclusive domain.  Christian Women have been raped, and beaten, and had their assaulters either excused to a degree by a Christian-majority society and/or had society blame the victim for having dressed “slutty” and thus “asking for it”.  

58 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Are you genuinely suggesting that most Muslim women around the world could just discard their burqa in public and wear

Are you genuinely suggesting there are no Muslim women who’d feel more comfortable wearing a Burqa than a Bikini regardless of the setting? That they may actually choose this over a regular bikini because of their own ideas of modesty? 

That we should never count this as a legitimate choice they could make for themselves without the fear of violence? 

I’m suggesting until the woman, speaks out, others stop projecting values onto her and assuming if given a chance they’d ditch their cultural dress and adopt a more “Western” approach to clothing. 

[Heartofice]

There is nothing absurd in my reasoning here. 

In recent times which Christian women are being mutilated and beaten for not wearing items of clothing? It would happen in such tiny numbers as to be insignificant. Now how many Muslim women around the the world have the genuine option of wearing a bikini? My guess would be the vast majority of Muslim women could not wear one if the wanted to. They have no option. I’m not sure why you want to avoid this point, unless you actually believe Muslim women wearing a burqa are doing it out of pure choice and could take it off in public if they wished?

And do you genuinely believe that women aren’t speaking out about it because they are happy about it? Or is it because they risk something beatings or worse?

You seem to be one of those people who has gotten themselves all tied up. Defending extreme misogyny and oppression of women because you don’t want to be on the side of people you don’t like.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

There is nothing absurd in my reasoning here. 

In recent times which Christian women are being mutilated and beaten for not wearing items of clothing? It would happen in such tiny numbers as to be insignificant. Now how many Muslim women around the the world have the genuine option of wearing a bikini? My guess would be the vast majority of Muslim women could not wear one if the wanted to. They have no option. I’m not sure why you want to avoid this point, unless you actually believe Muslim women wearing a burqa are doing it out of pure choice and could take it off in public if they wished?

And do you genuinely believe that women aren’t speaking out about it because they are happy about it? Or is it because they risk something beatings or worse?

You seem to be one of those people who has gotten themselves all tied up. Defending extreme misogyny and oppression of women because you don’t want to be on the side of people you don’t like.

Do you even bother trying to construct an argument that makes sense or do you just make ridiculous claims, like the bolded, while droning on and on about "both sides" and bikinis?

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

There is nothing absurd in my reasoning here. 

Everything about it is quite frankly. It could be applied to any form of religious expression given you could/will find people who’ve abused into acting a certain way in regards to it. 

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Now how many Muslim women around the the world have the genuine option of wearing a bikini? My guess would be the vast majority of Muslim women could not wear one if the wanted to. They have no option.

Wouldn’t that be More reason for us to give them options? Show respect for them and their rights instead of telling them you don’t care what they say in regards to how want to dress, they must dress a certain way before they could be seen as a free-thinking adult and that they don’t have the right to express themselves in the manner they say want to? 

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

They have no option. I’m not sure why you want to avoid this point, unless you actually believe Muslim women wearing a burqa are doing it out of pure choice and could take it off in public if they wished?

I don’t know each and every Muslim Women’s situation. You don’t either. But I at least don’t immediately assume there’s no possibility a Muslim woman is freely electing to wear a burqa or Niqad, or some other conservatives dress when I see one walking down the street. 

I understand not every woman must think or feel something in regards to an issue. 

You seem to not given the only reason you seem to fathom for why they’d wear this type of dress is fear.

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

And do you genuinely believe that women aren’t speaking out about it because they are happy about it? Or is it because they risk something beatings or worse?

You know these women aren’t monolithic right? It’s not either they believe this or that.

There are women who actually see this type of dress appropriate and honestly don’t have any real complaints about it to give. You assume the threat of violence is the only reason a woman would never complain about it. It’s like you’re  refusing to grasp the possibility that a woman could think this style of dress is good, and not  secretly want to break out of it. 

Yes there are women who remain silent because the threat of abuse. There are plenty who don’t speak out of fear. But there are also plenty of Muslim women who’ve never had a problem with it and whose opinions aren’t less  genuine because they aren’t yours. 

 

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You seem to be one of those people who has gotten themselves all tied up. Defending extreme misogyny and oppression of women because you don’t want to be on the side of people you don’t like.

I’ve been rather clear on my positions. I don’t think Women should be readily assumed to have no autonomy in all cases if they dress a certain way. That she must truly want to dress or act the way “I” deem right before she’s truly independent and that it wouldn’t be a violation of her rights government “liberated her” through putting a ban on the type clothing she’s wearing.

Oh and made clear government services should be on hand to help those who are being oppressed into a certain lifestyle when called for help. 

But oh no I’m defending the oppression of women by...saying society shouldn’t bar them from dressing a certain way, and assume all women who dress a certain way only do it because they were forced to.