Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ser Leo Targaryen

Independent North

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Daenerys was officially queen yet. Sansa says The North just lost their King during the last scene with 4 Starks. So Jon was still viewed as King. He loses all his titles once he takes the NW oath. 

Why did he told Sam in the crypts in ep 1 he wasn't KitN anymore then ? That's not a title you can have against your will. He resigned when he bent the knee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, valgrel said:

Why did he told Sam in the crypts in ep 1 he wasn't KitN anymore then ? That's not a title you can have against your will. He resigned when he bent the knee.

Maybe Sansa's line was there just to make it seem like she wasnt trying to get the north for herself.  I was surprised when she said The North just lost their king. Jon was sentence after North become independent maybe he become King automatically since he was the last one. Then Bran passed his sentence of Jon and sent Jon to the NW. Only way that line makes sense to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that line as Jon was KitN up to the end of season 7, and isn't anymore and can't get his title back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa never acknowledged or accepted that Jon bent the knee and Dany was queen.  It is entirely in her character to simply ignore that portion of it especially when Jon was not there to object with is "our queen" line.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, RFL said:

Sansa never acknowledged or accepted that Jon bent the knee and Dany was queen.  It is entirely in her character to simply ignore that portion of it especially when Jon was not there to object with is "our queen" line.  

I actually think the only reason why Sansa said that in ep6, was to show she didn't "really" want to be queen.

We need to remember that she isn't Ned's daughter anymore, but LF's. 

Or then, she meant Jon Targaryen. 

 

As someone said previously, Lyanna Mormont said Jon isn't king anymore, and the northmen didn't disagree. Should be enough evidence.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone said previously, Lyanna Mormont said Jon isn't king anymore, and the northmen didn't disagree. Should be enough evidence. 
 

 

We are told how great the northmen are.  Lets exempt those that went south with Robb and were killed at the Red Wedding because those men seemed to be willing to stand up to anyone right up to the point of execution or a dire wolf taking off their fingers.  Those remaining in the north seem to be, by vast majority, followers.   I mean look how hard of a time Jon had finding people to fight Ramsey.  We are left without the subterfuge of the Lord of White Harbor shown in the books even.  The moment Jon wins they were all like "King in the North" which to me was more about "please don't make us think about anything"  No one objects to Sansa like ever.  When Lady Mormont stood up and said that were any of the other "leaders" in the north really of the personality to object?  Non-confrontational doesn't even begin to describe it

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, RFL said:

 

 

 

We are told how great the northmen are.  Lets exempt those that went south with Robb and were killed at the Red Wedding because those men seemed to be willing to stand up to anyone right up to the point of execution or a dire wolf taking off their fingers.  Those remaining in the north seem to be, by vast majority, followers.   I mean look how hard of a time Jon had finding people to fight Ramsey.  We are left without the subterfuge of the Lord of White Harbor shown in the books even.  The moment Jon wins they were all like "King in the North" which to me was more about "please don't make us think about anything"  No one objects to Sansa like ever.  When Lady Mormont stood up and said that were any of the other "leaders" in the north really of the personality to object?  Non-confrontational doesn't even begin to describe it

 

The northerns are the worst people in all of westeros. Lord Glover pulled a cersei even though he swore loyalty to jon… they just want to kick danny south after she helped them defeat the dead, joined ramsay Bolton against the starks, were the first people in the series to break their vows by naming robb king instead of stannis, the guy trying to rape someone in KL that jon killed was a northern, roose Bolton is a northern, were conspiring to depose jon after a few months because he was doing something they didn t like, killed child hostages against their king's wishes...

The north doesn t remember shit in the show and is full of awfull people!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa has clearly seen Terminator (or movies like it) and knows that putting yourself under the thumb of an all powerful AI is the dumbest idea anyone can have. Not to mention that she knew Tyrion would actually be running things. And she noted both how stupid he was and how he always has divided loyalties, both of which are true. Smartest decision is to get the hell out of that arrangement. And the first official council meeting right after proved that she was right to peace out.

Edited by Mystical

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 6:10 AM, Kyll.Ing. said:

I presume that Dorne and the Iron Island could get ideas of independence as well, being similarly isolated as the North, but Dorne was in no position to negotiate at this particular meeting, and Yara remembers how her father's rebellions went.

Frankly, Balon's rebellions ended up more successfully than the Stark's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are going to declare your independence you might as well do it from YOUR castle with your armies around you and the geographic separation preventing your enemies from just grabbing you and tossing you in chains.  Yara and the rest would have been fools to claim independence well sitting there.  It would have been as useful as Ned's father marching into Kings Landing without an army and demanding justice.  

Sansa could claim it because she did have her army sitting outside the gates to come to her rescue if things went badly (presumably).  Besides look at the strength of arms at that council meeting.  Brienne and Arya could have cut down everyone there with only a momentary hiccup trying to deal with Grey Worm and Yara (who was not you will note carrying a spear).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lord Stackspear said:

An independent North with a Stark king of the remaining 6 kingdoms is just dumb and a complete betrayal by D&D of the entire Westeros/ASOIAF universe.  We spent 6 seasons (and all of the books) learning about just how much the Lannisters and Starks hate each other, the Greyjoys and the Starks hate each other, the Martells and the Lannisters hate each other.  Yes, a lot of the lord paramount families are gone, but the remaining lords in those kingdoms surely have mistrust of other kingdoms/families in a similar fashion.  The idea that, at a minimum, Dorne and the Iron Islands would not demand independence the minute the North demands it is laughable - and that's ignoring who the King is - put a Stark on the throne, and I doubt most of the Westerlands would be very thrilled and might demand independence too.  The Reach and the Stormlands probably would be a more neutral.  About the only areas that would be ok with a Stark king are the Riverlands and the Vale, but even they would probably have issues with the North being independent.

Just think back to that rich, complex, political universe that made you love the books and early seasons of the show, and ask, if you had read a political scene like this, would you have kept interest in the story?  It's laughable.  Almost none of it makes sense, and it feels like D&D just didn't care anymore, and wanted to just be done with the show so they can get on to f'ing up Star Wars.  

The sudden appearance of Drogon burning and eating most of this council -starting with Sansa- would have been a decided improvement on the situation and no less ludicrous than what actually transpired.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't North was inspired from Scotland? Then Independent North was inevitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2019 at 11:25 AM, Ser Leo Targaryen said:

I actually enjoyed the episode overall. It's been such a shitty season overall. I think my expectations were already lowered and I gave up on hoping for things to come together... 

But I cant' really stand by the "Independent North" plot.

I always believed there would be no Iron throne, and it was a pleasing end. Bet in some sort of democracy as well... But the interesting thing about this is to get some balance of powers. No more dynasties.

But with the North independent, it is just a matter of time. Give a generation, Sansa and Bran are gone, and the wars will start again, over a new throne or whatever new symbol they make...

Not that eternal peace was to be expected, but something a bit more balanced with space to grow would have been nice.

And don't get me started with the fact that the King of the 6 kingdoms is from the one Kingdom that doesn't belong to the 6. 

It Reeks of fan service to me. Just to make Sansa a queen of sorts...

She did look stunning with that crown, though! :)

Seven Kingdoms had been built by Targaryens, through "fire and blood". Therefore, logical outcome would be killing off all Targaryens and destroying the Iron Throne, thus ending the cycle of fights around a bloody chair. Or if you don't want that, just put another claimant on the throne. Giving single kingdom independence but not others makes no sense at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RYShh said:

Isn't North was inspired from Scotland? Then Independent North was inevitable.

I don't think so. The Wall being Hadrian's Wall would put Scotland beyond it and the North being Northern England. Supported by the casting of Sean Bean and his strong Northern English accent 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2019 at 12:16 AM, Anthony Pirtle said:

I have little doubt that, at least where the Stark kids are concerned, their fates were determined by the outline GRRM gave them.

In the books there are plotlines that could end with Sansa ruling the Vale and Rickon ruling the North... add the support of Asha and Theon, of Edmure and of a legitimized Edric Storm (who owes his life to Davos) as lord of Storm's End, and Bran would gather enough support to claim the throne if Jon names him heir...

I suspect D&D made Sansa queen of the North because they couldn't use the original plot, so they went for the closest thing they could achieve...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mystical said:

Sansa has clearly seen Terminator (or movies like it) and knows that putting yourself under the thumb of an all powerful AI is the dumbest idea anyone can have. Not to mention that she knew Tyrion would actually be running things. And she noted both how stupid he was and how he always has divided loyalties, both of which are true. Smartest decision is to get the hell out of that arrangement. And the first official council meeting right after proved that she was right to peace out.

Well Bronn has to go, the sooner the better, but Tyrion, Davos and Sam is as good a start go a Grand Council as you can find in this story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I don't think so. The Wall being Hadrian's Wall would put Scotland beyond it and the North being Northern England. Supported by the casting of Sean Bean and his strong Northern English accent 

In here Grrm says;

''Q: The books have a strong sense of place. How did that translate to the screen?

A: King’s Landing, that’s the capital, is not quite so tropical — in the books it’s more like medieval Paris or London and the north is more like Scotland. You don’t get the real tropical stuff til you get down south to Dorne.''

https://www.denverpost.com/2012/05/31/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-on-sex-violence-and-t-v/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2019 at 3:25 AM, Ser Leo Targaryen said:

But with the North independent, it is just a matter of time. Give a generation, Sansa and Bran are gone, and the wars will start again....

Sansa will be gone, but not Bran -- not really. Even when his current body dies, Bran continues. He might take a new body but even if he doesn't he will still be one of the old gods of the undying weirwoods, just as he now.

Time is different for the trees, simultaneous not sequential. That's why Bran is guaranteed to be in their future just he is guaranteed to have been in their past. Those are not different for him in the way they are to you and me. 

I'm afraid that it's to be all Bran, all the time. The past and future alike are guaranteed to be 100% pure Bran, just as the present is now today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Sansa will be gone, but not Bran -- not really. Even when his current body dies, Bran continues. He might take a new body but even if he doesn't he will still be one of the old gods of the undying weirwoods, just as he now.

Time is different for the trees, simultaneous not sequential. That's why Bran is guaranteed to be in their future just he is guaranteed to have been in their past. Those are not different for him in the way they are to you and me. 

I'm afraid that it's to be all Bran, all the time. The past and future alike are guaranteed to be 100% pure Bran, just as the present is now today. 

Allbran?

Bland, uninteresting and some say, good for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Allbran?

Bland, uninteresting and some say, good for you?

Exactly! Allbran may help to regulate various messy alimentary matters best left unmentioned and unsmelt. 

Who among us could on our own ever have dreamt up the unlikely team-up of Arya the serial killer with Bran the cereal killer? 

Genius, Mr Martin, sheer genius. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×