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Charles Stuart

Robert Baratheon - Not so bad after all

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6 minutes ago, sifth said:

I talking about it happening legally. The Faith Militant were just a bunch of terrorist before Cersie legalized them. Renly and Margaery could have just called these people terrorist and fanatics, which is exactly what they were before Cersie did what she did. I honestly doubt Renly would every allow these crazy people to ever get any real power.

I honestly doubt most lords cared about Stannis. Just look at how few actually joined his cause when Renly was still alive

Who could know what would happen in the future? They were already in the city, they could gain more support in time.

Not talking about Stannis only, I am talking about what Renly does, he just stole his own brother Stannis's right to the throne for no reason, that's a problem, you said Robert did that, but Robert fought against another house, and the people he fought did terrible things to him and other people. What Stannis did to Renly exactly? Nothing. Yet Renly usurps his rights, if you think there will be no consequences for this crime then you're too naive. Renly is no Joffrey, but he is also a little shit.

Renly was just a puppet at the hands of Tyrells, since they wanted a king to marry their daughter, Renly's purpose was just being a mate to the Queen. That doesn't make him a good king, especially not while he was also gay :D

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6 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Who could know what would happen in the future? They were already in the city, they could gain more support in time.

Not talking about Stannis only, I am talking about what Renly does, he just stole his own brother Stannis's right to the throne for no reason, that's a problem, you said Robert did that, but Robert fought against another house, and the people he fought did terrible things to him and other people. What Stannis did to Renly exactly? Nothing. Yet Renly usurps his rights, if you think there will be no consequences for this crime then you're too naive. Renly is no Joffrey, but he is also a little shit.

Renly was just a puppet at the hands of Tyrells, since they wanted a king to marry their daughter, Renly's purpose was just being a mate to the Queen. That doesn't make him a good king, especially not while he was also gay :D

You can speculate all you want, but you've yet to give me any real flaw that Renly had in being a king, other than "because he's gay". The guy was kind, smart and loved by others. He didn't like hurting people for fun and his wife was equally smart, kind and loved as well.

Who knows that would have happened down the line, but in the story we're given no ones seems to give dam about Stannis, aside from a handful of minor houses and many of them left him as well.

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Posted (edited)

Hey its the same guy spreading the same dumb opinions. The Faith were only given power to arrest people after Cersei armed them, I doubt Renly and Margaery would be so stupid. 

If being gay is such a big deal he would have been killed years ago. Lannister soldiers far away from King's Landing knew so it must have been a pretty open secret. If a 100,000 people followed him when many knew he was gay, I doubt they would rise in rebellion against him for it in the future. All the small folk care about is if they're well fed and happy. 

Even if the Faith somehow rose into power (How?) , Renly's sexuality would be just on the same level as Robert and Stannis' sins. Cersei was arrested on charges of adultery and the High Septon was forced into a walk of penance for visiting brothels, which Robert was guilty of, and Stannis worshipped the Red God. They would also be in trouble with the Faith Militant. 

Edited by Headfallsoff

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Posted (edited)

other than being right about the targaryans, bobby b was a pretty terrible king. i'm fairly certain that his character is based on henry viii, who was also very tall and fat, a huge womanizer, enjoyed crude humor and belching contests, and was very insecure about his critics and would readily accuse people of treason ("i'll have your head on a spike!"). he also inherited a flourishing economy only to squander it away on lavish extravagances and a stronger military. 

but it's a fair assessment to say he was "not so bad" when comparing him to joffrey or cersei.

Edited by the red god

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51 minutes ago, the red god said:

other than being right about the targaryans, bobby b was a pretty terrible king. i'm fairly certain that his character is based on henry viii, who was also very tall and fat, a huge womanizer, enjoyed crude humor and belching contests, and was very insecure about his critics and would readily accuse people of treason ("i'll have your head on a spike!"). he also inherited a flourishing economy only to squander it away on lavish extravagances and a stronger military. 

but it's a fair assessment to say he was "not so bad" when comparing him to joffrey or cersei.

Henry VIII is more similar to Aegon the Unworthy.

By Martin's Words Robert has some similarities with this historical person:

Quote

 

 I see a lot of Henry IV of Castile in Robert Baratheon, if I am right, you will now what I mean...

Sorry, Henry IV is not a fellow I know much about. If Robert is modelled on anyone, it is more Edward IV of England... though as usual, I rang in some changes.

-https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1170

 

Though if Tiberius played by George Baker in "I Claudius" influenced Stannis character, than small  part of Augustus played by Brian Blessed maybe influenced Robert too in. mostly their relationship and banishment to islands.

I, Claudius - Livia and Tiberius 3

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

You can speculate all you want, but you've yet to give me any real flaw that Renly had in being a king, other than "because he's gay". The guy was kind, smart and loved by others. He didn't like hurting people for fun and his wife was equally smart, kind and loved as well.

 Who knows that would have happened down the line, but in the story we're given no ones seems to give dam about Stannis, aside from a handful of minor houses and many of them left him as well.

Sorry, but "kind, smart and loved by others" do not a good king make. Stannis was much more of a King material than Renly: he had actual military, administrative and political experience. Renly's only claim to the throne was "people like me". But consider that people actually living under Stannis' rule adored him, and were fiercely loyal to him, despite his crabby lobster personality. It was mostly liars, criminals and people who didn't know him that despised him.

Granted, most of that was removed from the show since D&D hated Stannis, but some signs of it remained.

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Posted (edited)

So given what we know of Robert, we can generally assume his failings as king result from a general lack of ability in playing the game of thrones or even a complete lack of interest in doing so rather than him being evil etc. I'd even go as far as saying that perhaps the drinking and whoring are a result of the rebellion itself due to the loss of lyanna stark and generally not being interested in playing the politics of being king.  Brave, noble, generous and  bit overly forgiving to his enemies before the war. I doubt many would have been able to predict his failings as king. Throw into that being forced into a loveless marriage for the sake of the realm and we have a pretty good explanation for  the sort of king that Robert would eventually become. 

So would Jon have been any different? Besides the whoring of course,but who knows if Jon would have stuck to that rule given he found out he wasn't a bastard at all. There are plenty similarities between Jon and Robert before Robert's rebellion. Jon , show Jon certainly anyway, is notoriously inept at playing the game of thrones and isn't even interested in doing so or even wanting to be King at all. Jon has lost two great loves and most likely blames himself for both of their deaths , one directly at his own hands and the other indirectly.  Both Jon and Robert were brave , generally fair and forgiving , particularly to their enemies and I think it's a fair estimate to assume Jon would likely be forced into a suitable marriage if he had become King. 

If Jon had become king, fast forward a dozen years or so and given Jon's history and circumstances of becoming king, would Jon have ended much different from Robert? Both of them being largely decent and  broken men torn apart by grief upon becoming king, both pretty inept and not interested in playing the role of King and both forced into loveless marriages after the losses of previous loves.

Edited by Charles Stuart

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Sorry, but "kind, smart and loved by others" do not a good king make. Stannis was much more of a King material than Renly: he had actual military, administrative and political experience. Renly's only claim to the throne was "people like me". But consider that people actually living under Stannis' rule adored him, and were fiercely loyal to him, despite his crabby lobster personality. It was mostly liars, criminals and people who didn't know him that despised him.

Granted, most of that was removed from the show since D&D hated Stannis, but some signs of it remained.

Weren't most of Stannis men religious zealots in the books? If I recall many were really loyal to Mel, the Queens Men I believe. For every man that stayed loyal when Tywin was offering pardons, ten went over to the Lannisters side. So yea, these guys were really loyal to Stannis.

The sad truth is, more people loved Renly than Stannis and the love of the people is an important thing for a king to have. Just look at all the riots Joffrey had to deal with when he was king. I honestly doubt many would have broken out with Renly in charge.

Also your talking about Stannis, a guy who uses black magic to murder his own brother and burns people alive. On the show he even burns his own daughter. Yea, this guy would make a great king.

Edited by sifth

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Robert the Fat?

Other than not caring a fuck, you mean?

He wasn't actively doing anything but squandering taxes and drinking. And whoring. And missing the glory days of killing people because that chick was mine first.

Yeah, he was totes great.

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On 5/21/2019 at 8:27 AM, Winter prince said:

Jon Arryn went through hell trying to keep the realm in order for Robert. 

:agree:

Jon Arryn was quite the Hand.  Most of the good things in Roberts reign should be laid at his feet.

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10 hours ago, sifth said:

You can speculate all you want, but you've yet to give me any real flaw that Renly had in being a king, other than "because he's gay". The guy was kind, smart and loved by others. He didn't like hurting people for fun and his wife was equally smart, kind and loved as well.

Who knows that would have happened down the line, but in the story we're given no ones seems to give dam about Stannis, aside from a handful of minor houses and many of them left him as well.

 I would encourage you to check out Racefortheironthrone and towerofthehand for critiques of Renly and Stannis.

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5 hours ago, sifth said:

Weren't most of Stannis men religious zealots in the books? If I recall many were really loyal to Mel, the Queens Men I believe. For every man that stayed loyal when Tywin was offering pardons, ten went over to the Lannisters side. So yea, these guys were really loyal to Stannis.

The sad truth is, more people loved Renly than Stannis and the love of the people is an important thing for a king to have. Just look at all the riots Joffrey had to deal with when he was king. I honestly doubt many would have broken out with Renly in charge.

Also your talking about Stannis, a guy who uses black magic to murder his own brother and burns people alive. On the show he even burns his own daughter. Yea, this guy would make a great king.

The men who went over were Renly's men, not Stannis', as far as I recall. I was talking about Stormlanders in my post.

We know that most of surviving men after Blackwater were Queen's Men, but that only makes sense seeing how Queen was not at the Blackwater. I am not aware of anything indicating situation previously, 

Yes, more people loved Renly. My point was that while it is true that support of the people is important for gaining - and keeping - the throne, it tells us absolutely nothing about person's abilities as a ruler. Further, did Renly really have support of the people, or support of the nobles? Because it is nobles who would have brought armies over to his cause; but historically, many competent rulers were loved by the masses and hated by the nobles because they restricted their freedoms. So you could make a case that, in context of Westeros, you can have a popular ruler or you can have a competent ruler, but never a ruler who is both popular and competent.

Renly would have been far better ruler than Joffrey, that is for certain.

To me, it seems that Show!Stannis was a broken man after Blackwater, or at least that is what they wanted to imply I think. And he burned his daughter to save his army - choice (as he saw it) was "lose daughter" or "lose army and daughter". As for using black magic to murder his own brother, that is something I can completely understand and support, seeing how said brother was plotting to murder him in battle.

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3 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

:agree:

Jon Arryn was quite the Hand.  Most of the good things in Roberts reign should be laid at his feet.

Your username is awesome. Some Nordic names in ASOIAF would have been badass apparently 

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Posted (edited)

Stannis used black magic to kill a brother after he gave his brother the option to surrender, granted he didn't grant his brother the full amount of time promised but Renly had no intention of surrendering anyway so moot point.

Daeny used a dragon to torch a whole city after the aforementioned city had surrendered.

Stannis then went north and helped the night's watch fight off the free folk. He offered to make Jon lord of the north in return for his fealty.  Jon refused and Stannis went on his way.

Daeny, well...she didn't do that. Her assistance to the north against the white walkers came with its own price tag.

Truth be told , Daeny didn't do anything which didn't benefit herself over the course of 8 seasons. If Dorne, the Reach and the Ironborn's support hadn't collapsed like it did leaving her without allies, I doubt she would have eventually helped the North.

Can't really say the same for Stannis besides show Stannis burning his daughter which is likely a massive deviation from book Stannis.  

 

Edited by Charles Stuart

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5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

The men who went over were Renly's men, not Stannis', as far as I recall. I was talking about Stormlanders in my post.

We know that most of surviving men after Blackwater were Queen's Men, but that only makes sense seeing how Queen was not at the Blackwater. I am not aware of anything indicating situation previously, 

Yes, more people loved Renly. My point was that while it is true that support of the people is important for gaining - and keeping - the throne, it tells us absolutely nothing about person's abilities as a ruler. Further, did Renly really have support of the people, or support of the nobles? Because it is nobles who would have brought armies over to his cause; but historically, many competent rulers were loved by the masses and hated by the nobles because they restricted their freedoms. So you could make a case that, in context of Westeros, you can have a popular ruler or you can have a competent ruler, but never a ruler who is both popular and competent.

Renly would have been far better ruler than Joffrey, that is for certain.

To me, it seems that Show!Stannis was a broken man after Blackwater, or at least that is what they wanted to imply I think. And he burned his daughter to save his army - choice (as he saw it) was "lose daughter" or "lose army and daughter". As for using black magic to murder his own brother, that is something I can completely understand and support, seeing how said brother was plotting to murder him in battle.

Don't act like Renly didn't offer Stannis favorable terms as well. He offered the man Storms End, the castle he always dreamed of and nearly starved defending. In return Stannis basically offered Renly nothing, just everything he basically already had in the first book. He then goes on to use black magic, to murder his brother and doesn't even give him the full time he agreed to allow Renly to surrender.

Fine though, if you think Stannis treatment of Renly was fair and just, what about Robert. His elder brother who he basically abandons to the Lannisters in the first book. The guy is Master of Laws, but does he stick around Kings Lands to help investigate Jon Arryn's death with Ned in the first book. Nope he runs away to Dragonstone, like a coward. He basically leaves Robert and Ned at the mercy of the Lannisters. For a guy obsessed with justice and the law, rather strange how he just runs away when he actually has to put his life on the line, to finish an investigation. Renly on the other hand, offered to help Ned defeat the Lannisters on the night Robert was killed. He wisely knew they had no time to lose if they were going to defeat Cersie, after the crap she pulled and that a piece of paper wouldn't protect anyone.

For a guy who's all about duty and the law, rather strange how he did the complete opposite during the events of the first book.

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On 5/21/2019 at 1:51 PM, Charles Stuart said:

Am I the only one thinking that maybe Robert Baratheon wasn't so bad after all? Drank a lot, whored around a lot and certainly ate a lot, but the realm itself wasn't in a totally terrible state like it was afterwards under Lannister rule and post Daeny's invasion. 

Granted him being a shabby king led to the later events which ensued but I bet if you asked the people of King's landing which king they preferred, I would bet most would choose Robert. No blown up Septs, no burned cities, instead just endless feasts and tourneys.

#KingRobertwasbest

 

 

Didn't he waste all the realm's money? It got to the point where they didn't know how to pay back the Iron Bank. Which is a very powerful institution that WILL get to you if you don't pay.

And now there's been a civil war, destroying the economy. And the Breaker of Necks burning the capital, center of trade both foreign and domestic. And the devastated North is independent, so no more tax money from them. They simply can't pay it back. But they have to.

Why isn't the Council SCREAMING with rage at Baratheon in the end? Him and the Lannisters and Dany, of course. And how could they give Storm's End to Robert's bastard son? Serious problems here people, stop talking about penis jokes and brothels for a while!

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Robert was a terrible leader, as were his non biological sons. Cersei was too far gone psychologically to be fit for the post either, though they bungled her mad queen arc in the show and gave it to Danaerys instead!

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

Don't act like Renly didn't offer Stannis favorable terms as well. He offered the man Storms End, the castle he always dreamed of and nearly starved defending. In return Stannis basically offered Renly nothing, just everything he basically already had in the first book. He then goes on to use black magic, to murder his brother and doesn't even give him the full time he agreed to allow Renly to surrender.

Fine though, if you think Stannis treatment of Renly was fair and just, what about Robert. His elder brother who he basically abandons to the Lannisters in the first book. The guy is Master of Laws, but does he stick around Kings Lands to help investigate Jon Arryn's death with Ned in the first book. Nope he runs away to Dragonstone, like a coward. He basically leaves Robert and Ned at the mercy of the Lannisters. For a guy obsessed with justice and the law, rather strange how he just runs away when he actually has to put his life on the line, to finish an investigation. Renly on the other hand, offered to help Ned defeat the Lannisters on the night Robert was killed. He wisely knew they had no time to lose if they were going to defeat Cersie, after the crap she pulled and that a piece of paper wouldn't protect anyone.

For a guy who's all about duty and the law, rather strange how he did the complete opposite during the events of the first book.

Renly had no right to offer Stannis anything. Stannis was the older brother, crown was rightfully his. Renly was a rebel. He had no right, no authority to offer Stannis anything. Stannis meanwhile always did his duty: he defended the Storm's End, then gave it up to a toddler when Robert ordered him to. He built a fleet and took Dragonstone, and then received sh*t from Robert for apparently not pulling ships out of his bloody pocket.

Yes, murdering Renly was kind of a questionable move. But remember that Renly was going to murder him. Why is murdering somebody on a battlefield somehow superior to assassinating him? Renly, at that point, was a rebel. Rebellion is punished by death. The end.

I do not remember the exact circumstances, and you can indeed say that he should have stayed and helped Robert. But that is where family issues come in: Robert never listened to him - or at least that is what Stannis always believed - and the only person in King's Landing Robert would have listened to just got murdered (and the only other person Robert would have listened to was most of Westeros away at the moment). Keep in mind that Stannis was helping Jon Arryn with investigation. But he needed Jon Arryn to provide legitimacy to the cause: if Stannis himself had come forward, it would have been seen as self-serving since he was next in the line for the throne. And from what I remember, Stannis left immediately after Jon got murdered: he was not aware that Ned Stark will be continuing the investigation, or indeed become the next Hand of the King, since Stannis was at Dragonstone before Ned came to King's Landing. We do not even know if Stannis was aware of Ned's presence there before he received Ned's letter. And after Ned Stark discovered the truth, he contacted Stannis and only Stannis, which was a mistake on multiple levels: a single letter could have been falsified, the only other person who knew the truth was one with vested interest in the matter, and if Stannis did not return before Ned got killed, he would have no backing to take the throne; which is precisely what happened.

Renly was correct about the need to move against Lannisters right away. But you are again treating events rather selectively: you are ignoring the fact that Renly specifically offered Ned Stark help to become a King himself. He was not offering Ned help to make Stannis a king, Renly himself is the one who would have sat upon the Iron Throne had Ned gone with his plan. And replacing one usurper with another was not something Ned was going to condone.

I fail to see how "not being an idiot" = "not following duty and law".

Jon Arryn wanted to have Sweetrobin fostered on Dragonstone, in order to secure support of the Vale for Stannis.

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2 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Renly had no right to offer Stannis anything. Stannis was the older brother, crown was rightfully his. Renly was a rebel. He had no right, no authority to offer Stannis anything. Stannis meanwhile always did his duty: he defended the Storm's End, then gave it up to a toddler when Robert ordered him to. He built a fleet and took Dragonstone, and then received sh*t from Robert for apparently not pulling ships out of his bloody pocket.

Yes, murdering Renly was kind of a questionable move. But remember that Renly was going to murder him. Why is murdering somebody on a battlefield somehow superior to assassinating him? Renly, at that point, was a rebel. Rebellion is punished by death. The end.

I do not remember the exact circumstances, and you can indeed say that he should have stayed and helped Robert. But that is where family issues come in: Robert never listened to him - or at least that is what Stannis always believed - and the only person in King's Landing Robert would have listened to just got murdered (and the only other person Robert would have listened to was most of Westeros away at the moment). Keep in mind that Stannis was helping Jon Arryn with investigation. But he needed Jon Arryn to provide legitimacy to the cause: if Stannis himself had come forward, it would have been seen as self-serving since he was next in the line for the throne. And from what I remember, Stannis left immediately after Jon got murdered: he was not aware that Ned Stark will be continuing the investigation, or indeed become the next Hand of the King, since Stannis was at Dragonstone before Ned came to King's Landing. We do not even know if Stannis was aware of Ned's presence there before he received Ned's letter. And after Ned Stark discovered the truth, he contacted Stannis and only Stannis, which was a mistake on multiple levels: a single letter could have been falsified, the only other person who knew the truth was one with vested interest in the matter, and if Stannis did not return before Ned got killed, he would have no backing to take the throne; which is precisely what happened.

Renly was correct about the need to move against Lannisters right away. But you are again treating events rather selectively: you are ignoring the fact that Renly specifically offered Ned Stark help to become a King himself. He was not offering Ned help to make Stannis a king, Renly himself is the one who would have sat upon the Iron Throne had Ned gone with his plan. And replacing one usurper with another was not something Ned was going to condone.

I fail to see how "not being an idiot" = "not following duty and law".

Jon Arryn wanted to have Sweetrobin fostered on Dragonstone, in order to secure support of the Vale for Stannis.

Please if Stannis believed half the crap he says there’s way he’d run away. He would have returned to Kings Landing and tell Ned all he knew. He chose to hide like a coward though. Also Renly was going to help Ned become regent, not take the crown himself. 

 

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

Please if Stannis believed half the crap he says there’s way he’d run away. He would have returned to Kings Landing and tell Ned all he knew. He chose to hide like a coward though. Also Renly was going to help Ned become regent, not take the crown himself. 

 

Stannis prioritized his life - dead man cannot wield the crown. And do you really think he could have just teleported back to King's Landing? Even on the show, teleportation was not invented until Season 5 or so. Did he have time to return after receiving Ned's message? I don't think so.

Also, you are wrong about Renly:

1:15 "We all know what Stannis is. He inspires no love or loyalty. He is not a king. I am."

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