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Edmure Should Have Got It


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1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

And didn't Edmure hold the castle? What's your point?

Even in modern parlance, Edmure was the officer on the ground and would have authority to make necessary decisions called for by the local tactics. In GOT parlance, Edmure was the lord of his castle and if Robb wanted him not to exercise the authority that a lord has over his own castle and territory, he needed to make explicit orders to that effect.

To return to my original point, "luring" an enemy somewhere has to be a coordinated operation. It has little prayer of working if local commanders are not informed of the role they are to play.

Hey, I'm not saying "Edmure for King," he never comes across that way even in the books, and in the show he's pretty much played for comic relief. But--at least based on what we see and are told--this one is mostly on Robb, not Edmure, and Robb was snotty to chew him out over it instead of accepting responsibility.

Since when attacking Tywin, who had no business with Riverrun, is ''holding the castle''?

If Edmure could do whatever he likes, why they said only ''hold the castle''? What was the point?

Of course they needed to hold the castle... Who would like to lose his own castle? Why would anyone give an order like that? Because they didn't want him to attack Tywin who was trying to return Westerlands only.

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2 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Hold the castle means hold the castle.

Don't leave it and don't attack Tywin who wasn't even trying to siege Riverrun instead he was trying to return Westerlands.

But Edmure did "hold the castle". And if you look at sieges - Alesia, Orleans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Orléans

Going outside castle/city walls to engage the enemy is not that uncommon. And one of important points of the castle is its command of the surrounding area. So attacking Tywin was well within duties of Edmure as commander of Riverrun.

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Just now, Erkan12 said:

Since when attacking Tywin, who had no business with Riverrun, is ''holding the castle''?

If Edmure could do whatever he likes, why they said only ''hold the castle''? What was the point?

Of course they needed to hold the castle... Who would like to lose his own castle? Why would anyone give an order like that? Because they didn't want him to attack Tywin who was trying to return Westerlands only.

Dude, you should just stop. 

To hold a castle means to keep control of it. It doesn't mean "stay inside the castle and don't go outside the walls." If you want a commander to do that, you need explicitly order him to do so.

But it would be a very unusual order, because that's not the way it was done. Raiding forces generally need to be attacked before they can destroy crops and outbuildings, which was pretty much the main point of medieval war. Also before they can set up siege lines and defenses and cut off your lines of supply.

If Edmure had taken all his force out and gone on a military expedition a 3-day march away, THAT would've been disobeying Robb's orders. Sortying from the castle to attack a nearby force is part and parcel of holding a castle and it's the responsibility of the commander on the spot to make the call whether to do so.

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10 minutes ago, Troy Wessels said:

So now he has to read Tywin's mind as well? He could've easily gone for Riverrun if he'd wanted to, or take Robb in the rear. 

At this point I'm pretty sure you're trolling...

Obviously you didn't read the book, Edmure knew Tywin wasn't going to siege Riverrun;

''Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-“
“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.”
“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.”

The same lesson you taught his son? Her brother could be stubborn as river rock when his pride was touched, but neither of them was likely to forget how Ser Jaime had cut Edmure’s host to bloody pieces the last
time he had offered battle. “We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field,” Catelyn said tactfully.''

 

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1 minute ago, Erkan12 said:

Obviously you didn't read the book, Edmure knew Tywin wasn't going to siege Riverrun;

''Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-“
“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.”
“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.”

The same lesson you taught his son? Her brother could be stubborn as river rock when his pride was touched, but neither of them was likely to forget how Ser Jaime had cut Edmure’s host to bloody pieces the last
time he had offered battle. “We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field,” Catelyn said tactfully.''

 

This selective reading thing that you've got going on is really quite problematic. You should work on that ;)

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7 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

 

Dude, you should just stop. 

To hold a castle means to keep control of it. It doesn't mean "stay inside the castle and don't go outside the walls." If you want a commander to do that, you need explicitly order him to do so.

But it would be a very unusual order, because that's not the way it was done. Raiding forces generally need to be attacked before they can destroy crops and outbuildings, which was pretty much the main point of medieval war. Also before they can set up siege lines and defenses and cut off your lines of supply.

If Edmure had taken all his force out and gone on a military expedition a 3-day march away, THAT would've been disobeying Robb's orders. Sortying from the castle to attack a nearby force is part and parcel of holding a castle and it's the responsibility of the commander on the spot to make the call whether to do so.

Edmure's superior told him to hold the castle, that's it. No more no less.

Then Cat even said they should wait in Riverrun and let Tywin pass, they knew Tywin wasn't going to siege Riverrun. But Edmure says he wants to bleed Tywin at the field. That's clearly denying the orders. 

You guys are clearly obssesed on defending Edmure in here.

-Blackfish blames Edmure

-Cat blames Edmure

-Robb blames Edmure

-Edmure realizes his mistake and apologizes

But you Edmure fans are still defending him:D

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2 minutes ago, Troy Wessels said:

This selective reading thing that you've got going on is really quite problematic. You should work on that ;)

You're clearly in denial now, instead of seeing the source where they know Tywin wasn't going to attack Riverrun. :D

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16 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

But Edmure did "hold the castle". And if you look at sieges - Alesia, Orleans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Orléans

Going outside castle/city walls to engage the enemy is not that uncommon. And one of important points of the castle is its command of the surrounding area. So attacking Tywin was well within duties of Edmure as commander of Riverrun.

Edmure knew Tywin was trying to go Westerlands, and not trying to attack the Riverlands or trying to siege Riverrun.

Robb told him to hold Riverrun only.

Edmure calls his banners and attacks Tywin who was just trying to go Westerlands.

This is clearly an idiotic argument, I mean defending that idiot Edmure. :D

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Just now, Erkan12 said:

You're clearly in denial now, instead of seeing the source where they know Tywin wasn't going to attack Riverrun. :D

Not really. I've stated multiple times where I said that Edmure's orders also included guarding Robb's rear. Edmure denying Tywin the return home was a good thing, if you follow those orders.

The fact that it worked against Robb's goals was because Robb was unclear in his orders and did not share his strategy.

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Just now, Troy Wessels said:

Not really. I've stated multiple times where I said that Edmure's orders also included guarding Robb's rear. Edmure denying Tywin the return home was a good thing, if you follow those orders.

The fact that it worked against Robb's goals was because Robb was unclear in his orders and did not share his strategy.

According to everyone in the book it's not, and even Edmure who apologizes, so it's not.

Cut the crap please, Blackfish would gain nothing from blaming Edmure, he isn't a liar.

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4 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

According to everyone in the book it's not, and even Edmure who apologizes, so it's not.

Cut the crap please, Blackfish would gain nothing from blaming Edmure, he isn't a liar.

The Blackfish is a cranky old uncle who constantly undermines his nephew. Just like Cat.

I've never seen his critique of Edmure as an unbiased military opinion. He was just an older male relative making sure his nephew didn't grow arrogant after his victory.

As for that so called apology... Edmure has never stood tall against his family. He was clearly pressured in to giving it and he crumbled.

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Just now, Troy Wessels said:

The Blackfish is a cranky old uncle who constantly undermines his nephew. Just like Cat.

I've never seen his critique of Edmure as an unbiased military opinion. He was just an older male relative making sure his nephew didn't grow arrogant after his victory.

Oh ok, Blackfish is a liar, Cat is a liar, Robb is a liar, and Edmure apologizes for no reason? :D

I've never seen delusional arguments like these before.

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But as everyone has said holding the caslte does not mean doing nothing. If you think holding a castle means simply sitting inside the walls then the second part of the order, protecting Robb's rear makes no sense. Edmure can't protect Robb's rear if he refuses to send his troops outside Riverun.

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3 minutes ago, Darzin said:

But as everyone has said holding the caslte does not mean doing nothing. If you think holding a castle means simply sitting inside the walls then the second part of the order, protecting Robb's rear makes no sense. 

That's exactly that means according to Blackfish. They know nothing about orders and chain of command, they are just bullshitting because of their Robb hate :D 

Blackfish knows what it meant.

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6 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Sansa had no business treating her uncle in that manner. The guy had genuinely suffered, presiding over the part of the realm that was most screwed by the War of the Five Kings. He'd have made a decent King himself, having the maturity, experience, and compassion to actually do the job. Bonus political points for the fact that he's not an alien kid who worships trees, but a conventional follower of the Seven, with capacity to produce children.

The treatment of Edmure on the show has always been criminal, and bringing him back just to abuse him (again) was appalling.

He has the best story IMHO.....AYE!!!!

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Think about Edmure what you will but at very least he tried to act responsible in his own way and for that they should've thanked him... if only to help him save face.

What to think of a family that humiliates its elders before strangers?

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2 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

Think about Edmure what you will but at very least he tried to act responsible in his own way and for that they should've thanked him... if only to help him save face.

What to think of a family that humiliates its elders before strangers?

It wasn't "the family," it was Sansa, who seems to have completely forgotten about ordinary manners and politeness over the last couple of seasons.

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It's hard to compare him to Bran, since I have no idea what Bran is or what his goals and values are. He basically got elected because Tyrion thought that magic was pretty neato. Edmure does have certain attributes that would make him a solid choice. What Westeros needs now moreso than ever is stabilization. I think that his family ties to the Starks and Arryns would be a pretty good start. He also admitted smallfolk into Riverrun which is pretty good. Edmure isn't gifted, though. My main issue is his lack of willingness to follow orders, which may be amplified with becoming king. I think that his heart is in the right place, but he would just need a strong Small Council to help him.

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