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Panos Targaryen

Loose ends

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What important plot points from the show remained unresolved by the end? I don't just mean stuff that would have been cool or nice for fans to know, but still contribute to a good story by remaining mysterious. I mean stuff that by being unresolved violate the "laws of good story writing/narrative making". I'll start:

1) Why was Jon brought back if he played no role in the defeat of the white walkers? 

2) What was the metaphysical force behind these events? What kind of power were the COtF manipulating to create the WW, how do red priests see the future etc.

3) Why did Bran become the 3-Eyed Raven?

4) What was the purpose of Dany using mysterious magical forces to "wake the dragons from stone"? What role did the return of dragons play in the grand scheme of things?

and many others.

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21 minutes ago, Panos Targaryen said:

1) Why was Jon brought back if he played no role in the defeat of the white walkers? 

But he did play a crucial role. None of the others were capable of creating the great Northern coalition (getting batshit Dany on board) that - at least according to the show - was necessary to defeat the NK. Then he kills Dany, which was just as crucial for a "good" ending.

 

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8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

But he did play a crucial role. None of the others were capable of creating the great Northern coalition (getting batshit Dany on board) that - at least according to the show - was necessary to defeat the NK. Then he kills Dany, which was just as crucial for a "good" ending.

 

Sansa could have just as easily rallied the Northern forces. She even came on the verge of usurping Jon, when the northern lords were displeased with him swearing fealty to Daenerys and they were pressuring her to become Queen. Getting the wildlings to side with them against the WW, maybe, but realistically how much did they really contribute to the total of the forces that fought them? From what was established in the 4th season, the wildlings had few healthy fighting age men, and were mostly civilians. 

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What I meant with "great Northern coalition" was Dany+her dragons/armies AND the North+their allies, and Jon was the one who brought them all together to fight the NK. Sansa couldn't have done that, she wouldn't have bent the knee (which was required to get Batshit Lady on board).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

Sansa could have just as easily rallied the Northern forces. She even came on the verge of usurping Jon, when the northern lords were displeased with him swearing fealty to Daenerys and they were pressuring her to become Queen. Getting the wildlings to side with them against the WW, maybe, but realistically how much did they really contribute to the total of the forces that fought them? From what was established in the 4th season, the wildlings had few healthy fighting age men, and were mostly civilians. 

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

What I meant with "great Northern coalition" was Dany+her dragons/armies AND the North+their allies, and Jon was the one who brought them all together to fight the NK. Sansa couldn't have done that, she wouldn't have bent the knee (which was required to get Batshit Lady on board).

The wildlings would not follow Sansa. Plus Jon was only Northern Leader who fought the Dead and people believed him. Sansa was the civil administer and Jon was the military lead.  Everyone was there to fight Jon’s War like Dany said. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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19 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

What I meant with "great Northern coalition" was Dany+her dragons/armies AND the North+their allies, and Jon was the one who brought them all together to fight the NK. Sansa couldn't have done that, she wouldn't have bent the knee (which was required to get Batshit Lady on board).

I agree.  Jon was the PtwP because he lead the fight against the darkness.  The prophecy never talked about personally killing the NK.  Jon was directly, or indirectly, responsible for gathering the north, vale, wildlings, dothraki, unsullied, 2 dragons, and some select southerners together to defend against the dead.

Now, to answer the OP, I was disappointed that we don't know who is actually left, which houses still exist or were wiped out, and who rules the various regions.

I'd really like to see a comparison of the population numbers of when Robert died versus now.

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1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

What important plot points from the show remained unresolved by the end? I don't just mean stuff that would have been cool or nice for fans to know, but still contribute to a good story by remaining mysterious. I mean stuff that by being unresolved violate the "laws of good story writing/narrative making". I'll start:

1) Why was Jon brought back if he played no role in the defeat of the white walkers? 

2) What was the metaphysical force behind these events? What kind of power were the COtF manipulating to create the WW, how do red priests see the future etc.

3) Why did Bran become the 3-Eyed Raven?

4) What was the purpose of Dany using mysterious magical forces to "wake the dragons from stone"? What role did the return of dragons play in the grand scheme of things?

and many others.

1.) See above. Jon united Dany and the North.

2.) Its magic. Not all is meant to understand. Its a soft magic system where we as the viewer know as much as the characters, we are left to wonder how it all works.

3.) That was his character arc. Im not sure I understand what you mean here. 

4.) The return of Dragons Represents the return of Magic. Once they are born the magic returns to the world. 

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I think the loosest of ends are who is controlling which regions.

You see, if we consider the Show as face value we have in this order

1) North independent with Sansa as their queen

2) Crownlands being controlled by King Bran the Broken

3) Riverlands being controlled by Edmure tully (that was what I get from the show)

4) Westernlands being controlled by.... No one? (Or tyrion, but he is Hand of the King and I don't think he said something about pointing someone to be warden of the west)

5) Stormlands being controlled by Gendry "Baratheon"

6) Dorne being controlled by a literal WHO

7) Vale being controlled by Rob Arryn (lol)

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9 minutes ago, Dynas said:

4.) The return of Dragons Represents the return of Magic. Once they are born the magic returns to the world. 

I don't believe this is true. We had magic before the Dragons were born, what made they return was magic. But you are right about the other items.

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1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

2) What was the metaphysical force behind these events? What kind of power were the COtF manipulating to create the WW, how do red priests see the future etc.

I think the last episode heavily implies that Bran is pulling some strings.

The books also imply Mel's visions are from the 3 eyed Raven.

It's possible all of the magical events are connected to the CotF and the 3ER and there is no magic outside of that. Red Priests are just leaching of residual visions from the wiernet, and any dead brought back to life are leaching of residual NK power.

Bran might know all of this and just not tell anyone - keeping the power to himself.

1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

1) Why was Jon brought back if he played no role in the defeat of the white walkers? 

He was exactly where he needed to be - mostly at Danys side, gaining her trust, so that she trusted him enough to be able to stab her in the finale. That's my take.

1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

3) Why did Bran become the 3-Eyed Raven?

Seems muddied in the show - to become the King? I recon in the books the CotF might somehow manipulate the situation to insert him as King.

1 hour ago, Panos Targaryen said:

4) What was the purpose of Dany using mysterious magical forces to "wake the dragons from stone"? What role did the return of dragons play in the grand scheme of things?

I don't think we will ever get an answer on this. I recall GRRM said it was a one off - I think the whole point of the dragons was to give Dany power that wasn't directly hers and add that dimension to her character so she could feel more powerless alongside Jon.

I have a feeling that GRRM had an idea for how Dany would play out which is similar to what we saw and added the Others as a kind of counterbalance. I think he knew he wanted a fire goddess to match Frost's poem and make a narrative point about idealism gone bad and and then he just jotted down the Others (Neverdead, frozen demons) as an Ice counterpoint and never fully fleshed out where they would end up.

 

Interesting re Frosts poem:

But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice

Jon is back in the north, where it is icy and has already died once. He now knows enough of hate, from his Targ experience. Bran may be setting up a new Night King.

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39 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

 

The wildlings would not follow Sansa. Plus Jon was only Northern Leader who fought the Dead and people believed him. Sansa was civil administer and Jon was the military lead.  Everyone was there to fight Jon’s War like Dany said. 

Exactly, saying Jon played no role in beating the dead, is like saying Eisenhauer, Patton, Zhukov, Montgomery  played no role in beating the Germans because none of them were the one who killed Hitler. 

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1) It was all just for shock and awe and it was in the books.

2) That is a different show called the long night.

3) Just for some exposition, and looking at girls in the shower and most of all apparently to make him king lol.

4) Tits and dragons is the basis of this show. Remember she came out naked.

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Was Howland Reed still alive?

Was the whole R+L=J a plot device to make Jon's eventual 'obscurity' more bittersweet?

What exactly was the device used to respawn Unsullied soldiers after every battle?

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2 minutes ago, Dragonslack said:

4) Tits and dragons is the basis of this show. Remember she came out naked.

Even the tits departament was a little off last and this season. 

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1 minute ago, #FreeGhost said:

Was Howland Reed still alive?

Was the whole R+L=J a plot device to make Jon's eventual 'obscurity' more bittersweet?

He's alive, but never shown.

Yes, it was only to create artificial tension between him and Dany. Because it served no end in the grand scheme.

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Just now, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Even the tits departament was a little off last and this season. 

Tat's coz Disney brought it, right? Disney is pretty tit free, unless it  is in the 80s Rescuers cartoon.

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1 minute ago, ummester said:

Tat's coz Disney brought it, right? Disney is pretty tit free, unless it  is in the 80s Rescuers cartoon.

Disney bought it? When? Wtf

 

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19 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I don't believe this is true. We had magic before the Dragons were born, what made they return was magic. But you are right about the other items.

We did not actually. There is an interview with GRRM where he says that the return of dragons represents the return of magic to the world. 

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4 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Disney bought it? When? Wtf

 

What? No. D&D have a contract with Disney to do the next Star Wars Trilogy, 10-12. WHich I hope they retract after the shit writing of the last 2 seasons of GoT

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