Rothfuss XV: Move along, nothing to see here

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

This does not answer my question.

I wasn’t really commenting on quality, moreso wondering why he seems to have acquired a wider following than typical SF/F readers

I didn't express it well, on that level.  He was at the threshold which so appealed to the audience that was also him, and the editors recognized it.

But in the meantime, the threshold was crossed and he got shyte, lots of shyte (which he may well not have gotten if he'd got the series out in time).

Also in the meantime, as was also pointed out, a certain field audience of immature white guy nerds keep finding the first book and loving it.  It has that fantasy appeal. Which has been eternal in the field since at least John Carter of Mars.

[Darth Richard II]

That's funny, almost all of the mega fans of Rothfuss I've come across have been 20 something white girls.  Usually big Felecia Day fans as well.

[HexMachina]

9 hours ago, john said:

Well ok, he’s a better writer than most prominent fantasy authors then. Quality attracts a wider variety of readers, surely?  Or rather I suppose, he’s a good writer while staying in the popular, easy to read mould.

Plus he seems to be read by a lot of teenagers who might not have read adult (more or less) fantasy before but aren’t going to be turned off by it.

Well i’d like to think so but i’m not convinced it does when you see what some bestsellers are and how little some truly fantastic authors sell...

I feel like there must be more of a reason than simply ‘he’s a good writer’ or a number of other authors would have broken into the mainstream. But thank you fornyour input, i realise i’m probably coming across like i am not listening to you but i a,  

[kuenjato]

On 5/26/2019 at 3:04 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Well i’d like to think so but i’m not convinced it does when you see what some bestsellers are and how little some truly fantastic authors sell...

I feel like there must be more of a reason than simply ‘he’s a good writer’ or a number of other authors would have broken into the mainstream. But thank you fornyour input, i realise i’m probably coming across like i am not listening to you but i a,  

His series was released right as Harry Potter was winding up, and is a (slightly) more mature take on that trope. A whole generation of readers weaned on HP were looking for the next fix, and Rothfuss combined the comfortable school drama fantasy with pseudo-philosophy, "me (a GeNiUs!) against tha world" navel-gazing wish-fulfillment, and a dash of puzzlebox mystery, all half-baked to the point that one can see how TNotW would be rather appealing to those relatively unschooled in the genre -- "baby's first epic fantasy primer", sort of like David Eddings in the early 80's, Dragonlance in the mid-to-late 80's, and Jordan in the early 90's.  

His prose is OK. Decent for the genre, but also a bit deceptive, as it's first person and IMO it's much easier to write decent prose in 1st than in 3rd person. Also bears noting that 1st person YA dominates that genre and seems to become the major frame for teen-centered sci-fi/YA from the aughts onward.

It was the perfect storm of shallow appropriation and zeitgeist intersectionality. The fact that it's a complete fraud in execution and the author isn't a cha-ching sociopath (and so knows and no-doubt struggles with its inherent registry amid even the lowbrow genre's greats) is pretty compelling evidence as to why the third volume hasn't been released yet.

[Demetri]

On 5/24/2019 at 6:47 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

I’ve always found Rothfuss’ popularity strange. He seems to somehow appeal and have a major fanbase beyond “traditional” SF/F readers. I’m curious as to what drives this appeal to the masses

His prose is masterful, just beautiful stuff. The first book also gets you deeply emotionally invested in the world and Kvothe very quickly. By the time he is playing nature songs you're completely entranced.

[Demetri]

On 5/25/2019 at 9:19 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s interesting.  So, are you saying that Kote isn’t fully Kvothe hence he seems kinder and more grounded.  More thoughtful about consequences and potential fallout?

The book separates the two very strongly. Kote isn't a mere false name, it is an evolved identity. Look specifically to Bast trying to goad Kvothe by using that name. 

More telling, his physical appearance is described as changing as he rides the spectrum between Kote and Kvothe. For instance, he is described as appearing stronger and younger when tapping into Kvothe or "remembering" who he was/is. His hair is even described as becoming more intense and flame like. 

[Demetri]

On 5/25/2019 at 7:01 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

This does not answer my question.

I wasn’t really commenting on quality, moreso wondering why he seems to have acquired a wider following than typical SF/F readers

I believe it has a couple of facets. First, it breaks genre boundaries a bit by being imminently readable. This obviously makes it fun to read. But more importantly, the readable shatters the stereotype that Fantasy books are stuffy, dense and burdensome. Someone elsewhere cited his female fandom. I think female readers and male readers (to a lesser extent) that don't have a strong grounding in the genre associate Fantasy with LOTR inextricably. LOTR is a favorite of mine and a seminal masterpiece that was defining, but it isn't the most readable work on the planet nor the most accessible. For many (especially genre-novice female readers), there seems to be the need to differentiate from LOTR to be a readable fantasy novel. Both ASOIAF and Rothfuss managed to epitomize this ideal in a way that was integral to their success outside of genre enthusiasts.

Second, the narrative device. I'm not merely talking about the Irish story template used. The arrogance and egotism of Kvothe combined with the pain endured, its expression and its impact to the reader is all very much outside the likely expectations of the genre-neophyte. 

As a more overarching point, people love pretty words. Rothfuss' pretty words are great at both visual imagery and emotional evocation. Both help lend it a broader popular appeal and enhance the above points. 

[Ninefingers]

On 5/27/2019 at 10:28 AM, kuenjato said:

His series was released right as Harry Potter was winding up, and is a (slightly) more mature take on that trope. A whole generation of readers weaned on HP were looking for the next fix, and Rothfuss combined the comfortable school drama fantasy with pseudo-philosophy, "me (a GeNiUs!) against tha world" navel-gazing wish-fulfillment, and a dash of puzzlebox mystery, all half-baked to the point that one can see how TNotW would be rather appealing 

 

Yeah, this ^ is the answer

 

On 5/27/2019 at 10:28 AM, kuenjato said:

The fact that it's a complete fraud in execution 

I'd be curious to hear you expand on this.

 

[kuenjato]

1 hour ago, Ninefingers said:

Yeah, this ^ is the answer

 

I'd be curious to hear you expand on this.

 

If I'd read the books recently, I could give a much more in-depth answer. In short, the "world" never feels real, rather a mish-mash of concepts tossed into a blender with little thought as to how they'd actually function. He's gone at length about how extensive his world building is, but it really seems to encompass how money works in relation to Kvothe, and the various myths articulated mostly in the 2nd novel; I don't think any substantial differences can be discerned between the various countries in his world, how they interact, the histories informing their relationships, etc. His one attempt at an exotic culture felt extremely flat, particularly the idea of martial artists wearing skin-tight leather (!?), though that idea might have originated with the Mord-Sith from Wizard's First Rule, which Rothfuss at one time expressed admiration or at least influence from. Most if not all religious, economic, political, historical, and social praxis in Temerant all feel very slapdash, if mentioned at all. You can contrast this with any of the mid-00's eruption of talent -- Lynch, Abercrombie, Bakker in particular, Erikson-- who have much more defined and intricate settings, even if I personally don't like some of them, at least it feels like the authors did some background work to establish differentiation and thus an illusion of depth.

One off the top of my head: there seems to be a full-on Inquisition against sorcery going on in the city Kvothe spends a few years in during his penniless phase, and conveniently pops up at a climatic moment so that he cannot get answers from his mentor-figure. A couple days travel away is a full-fledged world-renown magic academy that apparently has no real issue with this Inquisition, in fact, I don't think the Inquisition is ever mentioned again. I recall a bunch of "wait, what?" stuff like this in my initial read and re-read circa 2014, but again, that was quite a while ago.

I also bridled at how he encouraged his fans at one point to poo-poo Harry Potter in contrast to Kingkiller, when it's one of the most obvious carbon-copy elements he pasted into the story, to which he owes a huge debt (and I'm not really an HP fan, I just think it was bad form). I also think he might be struggling with the dichotomy that, in order for his series to actually have some semblance of depth and long-lasting critical assessment, the third book needs to expose Kvothe as a habitual liar and selfish-to-the-point of disaster--which is where the books, thematically, should be heading--but that would violate the wish-fulfillment fantasy that has been translated into enormously lucrative swag and generated a die-hard fanbase who view Kvothe as the Horatio Alger-esque Hero, the rags-to-riches superstar student/bard/sorcerer who humiliates the mean old instructor to class applause, is so, er, amazing that, as a virgin, he tames an elemental sex-goddess (!!), has r/niceguy internal monologues about Denna (written, it feels, completely serious, rather than a pretty frank indication of an incel-type obsession), etc. etc.

A long while ago, Happy End deconstructed one of the best-written sections of the first book, where Ambrose breaks the lute string, and pointed out how preposterous the entire scene is -- he completes this incredibly difficult and complex song by playing really fast. Rothfuss later admitted he knows almost nothing about music. This, in a nutshell, epitomizes the Kingkiller series -- a lot of carefully-chosen words and sweated-over prose ultimately swathing over the fact that the author has very limited life experiences and is writing about a character with vast, expansive life experiences. In a Crayola-scribbled world setting.

[Darth Richard II]

2 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

If I'd read the books recently, I could give a much more in-depth answer. In short, the "world" never feels real, rather a mish-mash of concepts tossed into a blender with little thought as to how they'd actually function. He's gone at length about how extensive his world building is, but it really seems to encompass how money works in relation to Kvothe, and the various myths articulated mostly in the 2nd novel; I don't think any substantial differences can be discerned between the various countries in his world, how they interact, the histories informing their relationships, etc. His one attempt at an exotic culture felt extremely flat, particularly the idea of martial arts wearing skin-tight leather (!?), though that idea might have originated with the Mord-Sith from Wizard's First Rule, which Rothfuss at one time expressed admiration or at least influence from. Most if not all religious, economic, political, historical, and social praxis in Temerant all feel very slapdash, if mentioned at all.

 

OH fuck, everything just clicked in my head.

[Darth Richard II]

Also my god, you're take on the Denna stuff is spot on. It amazes me that after a few of his super cringe AMA's he wasn't crucified by the same people that go after Bakker for similar stuff.

[kuenjato]

13 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Also my god, you're take on the Denna stuff is spot on. It amazes me that after a few of his super cringe AMA's he wasn't crucified by the same people that go after Bakker for similar stuff.

Rothfuss is by all appearances and self-description an uber-nerd, and the unintentional genius of Kingkiller is how it inadvertently epitomizes the multifold frustrations and fantastical delusions of the nerd-in-embryo struggling to comprehend a world indifferent to socially-regressive media consumption~conception~obsessions. If the books end as a expose of this -- Kvothe as completely self-delusional, and an enormous serial liar -- or in the vein of St. Elsewhere / Wolfe's Wizard/Knight -- to wit: the entire project some 7th-grader's feverish daydreams in Science class, surveying the inhospitable environment of Middle School hell and casting oneself in the righteous Role with his various peers assigned complimentary or conflictive Roles -- then the trilogy will suddenly become one of my favorites.

I don't think it's going to end that way.

[Darth Richard II]

Heh, I've never heard Wizard Knight interpreted quite in that way. I think that's due a reread.

This also makes me wonder what Rothfuss's thought son Ayn Rand are.

I could also go on for pages about Rothfuss supposed "feminism" but eh, it's late.

[Proudfeet]

29 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

 as a virgin, he tames an elemental sex-goddess (!!),

Agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't think that's fair. It's been awhile for me as well, but as I recall, he didn't do it with sex and he didn't "tame" her. He called her Name and conned her with some promise of a story. She's also just a normal person before the world split and is less goddess of sex and more long-lived supernatural human who has a reputation of being promiscuous. . 

The needlessly detailed and convoluted self-censored descriptions of sex and Kvothe's claim of superior sexual proficiency from then on does deserves all the scorn it gets but I think the above quote is a mischaracterisation. 

 

My own take on the popularity of the series is that it's just fortunate with timing and marketing, much like the cupcake, doughnut and other food fads. It's a decent product and viral word of mouth pushed it over the top. I got the book after seeing that it was recommended on this forum myself. 

[Demetri]

1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

Agree with most of what you wrote, but I don't think that's fair. It's been awhile for me as well, but as I recall, he didn't do it with sex and he didn't "tame" her. He called her Name and conned her with some promise of a story. She's also just a normal person before the world split and is less goddess of sex and more long-lived supernatural human who has a reputation of being promiscuous. . 

The needlessly detailed and convoluted self-censored descriptions of sex and Kvothe's claim of superior sexual proficiency from then on does deserves all the scorn it gets but I think the above quote is a mischaracterisation. 

In many ways, he was at least as exotic to her as she was to him. Largely because she was generally effective in the way that a computer program might, with a targeted mission and guaranteed success within that mission. While it is gratuitous in much of it, it is not without substantive meaning Kvothe's arc. If I'm not mistaken either Bast/Elodin or both remark on his interaction with Felurian as being a transformative moment. I link Elodin into the conversation because he is so centered on the benchmark moments associated with growing this skill, though I think Bast was the one who brought us back to the present with a remark specifically regarding Felurian (books are in a different state  or I'd look it up.)

Either way it was definitely not my favorite part of his series. It is, however, precisely the sort of thing that a self-aggrandizing narrator (especially one tapping into his 17 year old self) would blow way out of proportion with improper focus such as on sex rather than the larger value of learning her name. There is a worthwhile argument that learning her name and related sexual awakening are integral in an adult learning their own name. The narrator spends an abundant amount of time explaining to the reader that the stories are going to be grander in the telling. While I think Rothfuss missed the mark in execution, why would we pretend that we weren't warned that such romantic reminiscence wasn't a thing. Taken too far? Sure. Totally gratuitious? Meh...

@kuenjato You've obviously read the series and I'm not one to try to dissect or place normative value on someone's approach or take on a book/work they've clearly experienced. But I have to ask, why the interest in KingKiller if you view it so pessimistically. And I do say pessimistically because I hope you're expressing displeasure and not holy judgment. I don't perceive the same fatal storytelling flaws that you do.

Furthermore, I think it is somewhat disingenuous or naive to indict world-building based on it feeling "slapped together" from other bits and pieces of works. That is not only inherent in stories, it is inherent in life. Any analysis of virtually any book would reveal derivative elements. It is, however, totally legitimate to say that it struck you in a certain way. But much like the prose, this is a subjective point that many disagreement. 

So once again, why do you bother with it? I'm honestly curious what you hope to gain beyond the somewhat unlikely (but not unsound either based on canon or Rothfuss's interviews, but still unlikely to the extreme you desire) event that Kvothe was only ever Kote and was either self-deceptive, flawed of memory or an outright liar (storyteller, Kvothe would argue)?

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, Demetri said:

While it is gratuitous in much of it, it is not without substantive meaning Kvothe's arc. 

I'm glad that you agree. 

 

I'd also like to point out a difference between a compelling story and a good story. One may be interested in what is going on or what happens next but at the same time think that it is mostly bullshit.

[Demetri]

5 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I'm glad that you agree. 

 

I'd also like to point out a difference between a compelling story and a good story. One may be interested in what is going on or what happens next but at the same time think that it is mostly bullshit.

I don't think gratuitous automatically means bad story. That's the true point of disagreement. I did edit my previous post to elaborate and I'm not certain if you saw it. But the general point is that the gratuitous nature can be attributed to the narration style and not bad storytelling. That speaks directly to the difference in compelling v. good story. 

Perhaps I misunderstand, because you do include the part of my quote that mentions the possible lack of direct translation from gratuitous to not without substantive meaning and indicate agreement. If the "gratuitous in much of it" is all we agree on then we don't agree at all.

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, Demetri said:

I don't think gratuitous automatically means bad story. That's the true point of disagreement. I did edit my previous post to elaborate and I'm not certain if you saw it. But the general point is that the gratuitous nature can be attributed to the narration style and not bad storytelling. That speaks directly to the difference in compelling v. good story. 

Perhaps I misunderstand, because you do include the part of my quote that mentions the possible lack of direct translation from gratuitous to not without substantive meaning and indicate agreement. If the "gratuitous in much of it" is all we agree on then we don't agree at all.

I'm saying that you don't need it in detail. Martin is criticised for his "food porn" in asoiaf but at least that shows the culture, wealth and general situation of the people having the meal. Rothfuss' depiction of sex is really only gratuitous. The substantive meaning of Kvothe meeting with Felurian can be conveyed without all the stupid thousand hands rubbish.

[Demetri]

1 minute ago, Proudfeet said:

I'm saying that you don't need it in detail. Martin is criticised for his "food porn" in asoiaf but at least that shows the culture, wealth and general situation of the people having the meal. Rothfuss' depiction of sex is really only gratuitous. The substantive meaning of Kvothe meeting with Felurian can be conveyed without all the stupid thousand hands rubbish.

Yea, I'm with you on the bolded bit to a large extent. But both the Ademre and Felurian accounts are not devoid of world-building value. For the Ademre, it spoke both to a matriarchal social system as well as opening up exposition into interesting cultural aspects such as their views on man-mothers and handling of venereal disease. Both of which have larger value for explaining why Ademre culture is so separate from the culture at large in the world. For Felurian, it provided exposition into fae world. We learn about one of the most powerful supernatural beings (if not the very most powerful) in existence precisely because familiarity with Felurian created a concept of home within an otherwise alien and probably hostile world that allowed for a counterpoint to that moment of danger as well as context for the mental recuperation necessary after his encounter with the Cthaeh.

My complaint regarding gratuity is the element of focus when less would have been more elegant. But Rothfuss has to contrive a meeting with the Cthaeh, why is Felurian such a bad mechanism? Book 3 will define my overall take on it. But as it stands we're dissecting the value of less than 30% of one of two existing novels and 30% of one of three planned novels.

Are these passages deserving of criticism? Absolutely. Do I find that resulting criticism damns the series entirely or provide some fatal flaw to the series? Absolutely NOT. Oddly, you don't seem to be the person that I need to tell this to as you seem to overall be a fan but (like me) have concerns over fumbles in book 2 that don't portend good things for future books. 

Can I ask what you thought of "Slow Regard of Silent Things"? I'd argue that someone could reasonably find 70%+ to be "gratuitous" but I found it quite enjoyable as long as you understand that gratuity was intended and necessary. Not saying Felurian was intended and necessary, but it blurs the line regarding gratuity, imho.

[Darth Richard II]

He’s flat out said the Felurian stuff is wish fulfillment.